I have a question that remains unanswered:

[David in NJ]

Identifying Michael as the tangible manifestation of Jesus is similar to what is known as a Christophany. The name “Michael” appears only 15 times in the Bible. Since ten of them are, for the most part, people listed in genealogies, it should be fairly easy to identify who he really is with the remaining five references. Those references are: Daniel 10:13, 21, 12:1, Jude 1:9, Revelation 12:7. Let’s examine each of them one by one:
Jude 1:9: “Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee.”
This text identifies Michael as the “archangel.” The only other place in the Bible that uses this term is 1 Thessalonians 4:16:

 

[David in NJ]

typo

 

[David in NJ]

It is impossible for Michael the archangel to be the Lord Jesus Christ.

Jude 1:8-9 Yet in the same way these dreamers defile their bodies, reject authority, and slander glorious beings.
But even the archangel Michael, when he disputed with the devil over the body of Moses, did not presume to bring a slanderous charge against him, but said, “The Lord rebuke you!

Michael did not rebuke the Devil/Satan - Jesus, our LORD did,
just as Jude writes:
"They turn the grace of our God into a license for immorality, and they deny our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ."

our ONLY Master and Lord....JESUS CHRIST

All other Scripture you seek to connect our only LORD as Michael the created archangel is flawed(not the Scripture) but your interpretation of what it says.

This is why we are commanded to "Every word of God is pure; He is a shield to those who put their trust in Him.
Do not add to His words, Lest He rebuke you, and you be found a liar." Prov 30:5-6

i am NOT saying you are a liar - NO i did not say that - i am point to this Eternal Commandment for our Benefit.

Here it is again in Deut 4:1-2 Now, O Israel, listen to the statutes and the judgments which I teach you to observe, that you may live, and go in and possess the land which the Lord God of your fathers is giving you.
You shall not add to the word which I command you, nor take from it,

Here it is again in Revelation 22:18-19 - "For I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If anyone adds to these things, God will add to him the plagues that are written in this book; and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part from the Book of Life, from the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

Men, today lack the Fear of God when approaching His Word (not saying you) and we think it is just a matter of one's personal choice in what they see from it - this leads to error - such as the Watchtower group and others.

Scripture cannot lie - the Word was in the beginning with God and was God - John 1:1
Scripture cannot lie - All things (angels) were made through Him(the Word), and without Him nothing was made that was made.
Scripture cannot lie - "Let Us make man in Our Image according to Our Likeness" - Genesis

Michael the archangel is not part of the "Let US" in Genesis - God made this very clear throughout Scripture as the Word never included him as the Creator - not once.

 

[David in NJ]

The onus is on you to produce the verse.

Have you produced the verse yet? You've had quite some time.

I can't very well see it if you don't produce it.

Oh that's easy, God has already done this for us in His Word. Let's start with the Apostle John who was filled with the Holy Spirit.

Genesis 1:1 In the beginning God created....

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning. Through Him all things were made, and without Him nothing was made that has been made. In Him was life, and that life was the light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it.

God = the Word
God created = the Word created
God is Light = the Word is Light

 

[theefaith]

what are sacraments?

The fruit of Christ’s sacrifice

Sacraments instituted by Christ for the salvation of souls!

Not by “faith alone”
“Faith alone” not biblical
“Faith alone” never given in prophesy in the OT.
You may think “Accept Jesus Christ as you personal Lord and savior” is biblical but there is no such verse in your bible!

Faith and the sacraments in the church founded by the authority Christ on Peter and the apostles is biblical!

Faith and baptism is the biblical initiation into the new covenant and member is Christ and His holy church!
Ez 36:25-27 Mk 16:16 acts 8:36-38

You cannot enter a covenant by “faith alone” must be a ritual outward sign!
Faith and baptism! Mk 16:16 acts 8:36-38

Merits of christ’s passion, death, and precious blood are applied in the sacraments! Jn 1:16

Colossians 1:20
And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.

Matt 26:28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

Acts 22:16
And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.

Rom 3:24
Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

1 pet 1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

Heb 10:22
Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.

Acts 2:47
Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.

1 Corinthians 12:13
For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

Galatians 3:27
For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

Lk 1: 72 To perform the mercy promised to our fathers, and to remember his holy covenant;

73 The oath which he sware to our father Abraham,

74 That he would grant unto us, that we being delivered out of the hand of our enemies might serve him without fear,

There is only one true church founded by Christ on Peter and the apostles and their successors is the new covenant body of Christ! Matt 1:18 & Jn 10:16 one fold

1 Timothy 3:15
But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.

Christ and His church are one: acts 9 why persecute me?

Eph 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,


Sacraments are the fruit of the sacrifice!
The holy sacrifice of Christ, His passion, blood, and death producing unlimited fruits of divine grace, actual and sanctifying grace! Jn 1:29 Jn 1:16-17 Jn 10:10


“This promise” (sacred oath of God or sacrament) of the Father acts 2:38-39 with reference to ez 36:25-27 Also a mystery Mk 4:11 Eph 5:32 eph 6:19 1 Tim 3:9 3:16 Col 1:27 2:2 4:3

Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.

Ez 36:25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.

26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

Jn 3:5 born again by water and the spirit.

Heb 7:21 For those priests were made without an oath; but this with an oath by him that said unto him, The Lord sware and will not repent, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec
(Oath = sacrament)

Hebrews 8:6
But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises. Based on Jer 31:31 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:


A promise is a sacred oath or sacrament!
Baptismal regeneration is the promise of the Father for union in the new covenant!

The church and the seven sacraments are necessary for salvation

Better covenant on better promises

2 Timothy 1:1
Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, according to the promise of life which is in Christ Jesus,

Life of supernatural grace merited by Christ in His passion and death!

An oath to sacramental life in the new covenant in union with the mediator and communion with God, and the saints!

Promise of the Father acts 2:23-39
Promise is an oath and an oath is a sacrament! This promise of the sacrament of baptism refers to ez. 36:25-27

1 Corinthians 12:13
For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

Galatians 3:27
For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.


1 Pet 3:20
Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us!
(Ark of Noah a type of the church, member of Christ and his church and salvation by baptism!)
(Outside the ark all died and outside the church there is no salvation!)

Jn 1:5-5 abide in Him, apart from Him you can do nothing.

Jn 10:10 life, (grace more abundantly)
Jn 1: 16 And of his fulness have all we received, and grace for grace.

17 For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.
Thru the sacraments!


God provides for everything:
John 14:6
Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

He is the way we must follow!
He is the truth we must believe!
He is the life, life of grace thru the sacraments of the church in which we must live!

Abide in Christ and His church with grace and life provided by God thru the sacraments!

Sacramental life: Jn 1:16 And of his fulness have all we received, and grace for grace. Jn 10:10 The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly.

Baptism: (initiation into the covenant)
Mk 16:16 Jn 3:5
1 Corinthians 12:13
For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

The Eucharist: (holy communion)
Mt 26:26-39 Jn 6:51-58 1 Cor 11:23-25

Confession of sins:
Jn 20:23 / 1 Jn 1:9 / 2 cor 5:18

Confirmation
Lk 22:32 acts 8:14-17
acts 14:22

Marriage:
Matt 19:4-6

Holy orders: (priesthood)
Jesus Christ continues HIS ministry in His new covenant church thru His priesthood in Peter, the apostles, and their successors with the same mission, power, and authority!
Mt 10:1-8 Mt 16:18 Mt 28:19 Lk 10:16 Jn 8:32 Jn 13:20 Jn 15:5 Jn 16:13
Jn 20:21-22 acts 1:17 acts 6:4 acts 8:26
2 Cor 5:18 1 Tim 4:14 Eph 2:20

Extreme unction: (anointing with oil)
1 Tim 4:14 James 5:14

A sacrament is an outward efficacious sign instituted by Christ to give grace. Jesus Christ himself is the sacrament, as he gave his life to save mankind. His humanity is the outward sign or the instrument of his Divinity. It is through his humanity that the life of the Trinity comes to us as grace through the sacraments. It is Jesus Christ alone who mediates the sacraments to allow grace to flow to mankind.

Christ sent the Holy Spirit at Pentecost to inspire his Apostles and his Church to shepherd his flock after his Ascension into heaven. "As the Father has sent me, even so I send you" (John 17:18, 20:21). Jesus is the Head of his Body the Church (Colossians 1:18). The Church itself is a sacrament instituted by Christ to give grace. Jesus gave us his Body the Church to continue the works he performed during his earthly life. Grace given to us through the sacraments will help us lead a good life in this world and help save us for the Kingdom of Heaven.

The sacraments were instituted by Christ! The Church celebrates in her liturgy the Paschal mystery of Christ, his Passion, Sacrifice on the Cross, Resurrection, and Glorious Ascension. The Greek word μυστήριον or mystery in the Greek New Testament is translated into sacramentum in the Latin Vulgate Bible, from which we derive our English word sacrament (examples: Ephesians 1:9, Ephesians 3:9, Colossians 1:27). The saving effects of Christ's Redemption on the Cross are communicated through the sacraments, especially in the liturgical celebration of the Eucharist.

The seven sacraments of Baptism, Confirmation or Chrismation, Holy Eucharist, Penance, the Anointing of the Sick, Holy Orders, and Matrimony. The three sacraments of Christian Initiation are Baptism, Chrismation or Confirmation, and the Eucharist. The two sacraments of Healing are Penance and the Anointing of the Sick, and the two sacraments of Vocation are Holy Orders and Marriage. Three sacraments, Baptism, Confirmation or Chrismation, and Holy Orders, are given once, as they render a permanent seal or character upon one's soul (2 Corinthians 1:21-22, Ephesians 4:30, Revelations 7:3).

 

[theefaith]

Yeah, yeah. We've heard it all before, TF.

All non-catholics will burn in hell, so on and so forth, world without end.

Scripture is true

1 pet 3:20-21
The church is the ark of salvation
Only Christians are saved not heretics

 

[theefaith]

Yeah, yeah. We've heard it all before, TF.

All non-catholics will burn in hell, so on and so forth, world without end.

There is only one faith church and new covenant revealed by Christ
One, holy, catholic, and apostolic!

 

[theefaith]

Yeah, yeah. We've heard it all before, TF.

All non-catholics will burn in hell, so on and so forth, world without end.

MORTALIUM ANIMOS


ENCYCLICAL OF POPE PIUS XI
ON RELIGIOUS UNITY

10. So, Venerable Brethren, it is clear why this Apostolic See has never allowed its subjects to take part in the assemblies of non-Catholics: for the union of Christians can only be promoted by promoting the return to the one true Church of Christ of those who are separated from it, for in the past they have unhappily left it. To the one true Church of Christ, we say, which is visible to all, and which is to remain, according to the will of its Author, exactly the same as He instituted it. During the lapse of centuries, the mystical Spouse of Christ has never been contaminated, nor can she ever in the future be contaminated, as Cyprian bears witness: "The Bride of Christ cannot be made false to her Spouse: she is incorrupt and modest. She knows but one dwelling, she guards the sanctity of the nuptial chamber chastely and modestly."[20] The same holy Martyr with good reason marveled exceedingly that anyone could believe that "this unity in the Church which arises from a divine foundation, and which is knit together by heavenly sacraments, could be rent and torn asunder by the force of contrary wills."[21] For since the mystical body of Christ, in the same manner as His physical body, is one,[22] compacted and fitly joined together,[23] it were foolish and out of place to say that the mystical body is made up of members which are disunited and scattered abroad: whosoever therefore is not united with the body is no member of it, neither is he in communion with Christ its head.[24]

11. Furthermore, in this one Church of Christ no man can be or remain who does not accept, recognize and obey the authority and supremacy of Peter and his legitimate successors. Did not the ancestors of those who are now entangled in the errors of Photius and the reformers, obey the Bishop of Rome, the chief shepherd of souls? Alas their children left the home of their fathers, but it did not fall to the ground and perish for ever, for it was supported by God. Let them therefore return to their common Father, who, forgetting the insults previously heaped on the Apostolic See, will receive them in the most loving fashion. For if, as they continually state, they long to be united with Us and ours, why do they not hasten to enter the Church, "the Mother and mistress of all Christ's faithful"?[25] Let them hear Lactantius crying out: "The Catholic Church is alone in keeping the true worship. This is the fount of truth, this the house of Faith, this the temple of God: if any man enter not here, or if any man go forth from it, he is a stranger to the hope of life and salvation. Let none delude himself with obstinate wrangling. For life and salvation are here concerned, which will be lost and entirely destroyed, unless their interests are carefully and assiduously kept in mind."[26]

12. Let, therefore, the separated children draw nigh to the Apostolic See, set up in the City which Peter and Paul, the Princes of the Apostles, consecrated by their blood; to that See, We repeat, which is "the root and womb whence the Church of God springs,"[27] not with the intention and the hope that "the Church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth"[28] will cast aside the integrity of the faith and tolerate their errors, but, on the contrary, that they themselves submit to its teaching and government. Would that it were Our happy lot to do that which so many of Our predecessors could not, to embrace with fatherly affection those children, whose unhappy separation from Us We now bewail. Would that God our Savior, "Who will have all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth,"[29] would hear us when We humbly beg that He would deign to recall all who stray to the unity of the Church! In this most important undertaking We ask and wish that others should ask the prayers of Blessed Mary the Virgin, Mother of divine grace, victorious over all heresies and Help of Christians, that She may implore for Us the speedy coming of the much hoped-for day, when all men shall hear the voice of Her divine Son, and shall be "careful to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace."[30]

13. You, Venerable Brethren, understand how much this question is in Our mind, and We desire that Our children should also know, not only those who belong to the Catholic community, but also those who are separated from Us: if these latter humbly beg light from heaven, there is no doubt but that they will recognize the one true Church of Jesus Christ and will, at last, enter it, being united with us in perfect charity. While awaiting this event, and as a pledge of Our paternal good will, We impart most lovingly to you, Venerable Brethren, and to your clergy and people, the apostolic benediction.

 

[theefaith]

Yeah, yeah. We've heard it all before, TF.

All non-catholics will burn in hell, so on and so forth, world without end.

Where does scripture say you can believe whatever you want and have salvation

must be united to Christ the only savior in thee faith and baptism period!

 

[theefaith]

Yeah, yeah. We've heard it all before, TF.

All non-catholics will burn in hell, so on and so forth, world without end.

there is only one holy mother church!
Jn 10:16 gal 4:26

 

[theefaith]

Only the saints are found in glory not heretics

 

[theefaith]

If you oppose the faith or the one true church you oppose Christ acts 9:4

 

[bbyrd009]

Those who look for reasons to believe will find them, and many of them.

Those who look for reasons not to believe will find them, and many of them.

funny you mention that…i seem to have lost all of my “beliefs”
not sure when that happened, hmm

 

[GEN2REV]

funny you mention that…i seem to have lost all of my “beliefs”
not sure when that happened, hmm

Zinger! ;)


" ... whosoever believeth in Him shall not perish ..."
John 3:16
" ... He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; ..."
John 14:12-14
" ... because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed."
John 20:29
" ... for he that cometh to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of them that diligently seek Him."
Hebrews 11:6

 

[bbyrd009]

God had this all figured out before He created everything - He promised He would watch over His word to perform it and He did.

The Blood, the Word and the Holy Spirit draws us unto God and His Truth is revealed to us.
We read and study His Word and the Holy Spirit speaks to our spirit and gives the understanding.
God loves children so He wrote a children's book for His Children.

Jesus said, “Assuredly, I say to you, unless you are converted and become as little children, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven."

The Apostle John, a Hebrew, really altered Scripture when He opened his Gospel account in the very first verse
Altered things so much that he would easily been stoned for it.
Did you ever wonder why he wrote what he wrote in John 1:1 or for that matter the whole chapter.

well, dunno if i wondered at it so much; it reads like an introduction, we get a couple interesting nuggets His own did not know Him (?) and Can anything good come from Nazareth?
and an intro to John the Baptist…never got how they could be “His own” and yet “not know Him” though, i gotta admit

 

[bbyrd009]

Zinger! ;)


" ... whosoever believeth in Him shall not perish ..."
John 3:16
" ... He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; ..."
John 14:12-14
" ... because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed."
John 20:29
" ... for he that cometh to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of them that diligently seek Him."
Hebrews 11:6

well, i dont mean that i no longer “believe” in Yah, but that i have more or less lost the rigid definition that i held for so long? Also, imo those examples are really about “having faith” pistis right? Which is to me different than “believing” even if they share a synonym

 

[Wrangler]

This discussion is devoid of profitable results.

I thought only recently you stated your understanding of 1 John 5:7 changed (improved) as a result of this thread? I’d think that is profitable.

you seem to be here merely to insist in no uncertain terms that there can be no correct interpretation of the Bible except your own. Or that it's somehow completely objective.

Some things are objective, like the fact that the trinity is not in the Bible - not the word and not the doctrine.

Just because some things are subjective, like which books should be in the Bible, does not negate the objective facts the books contain - and the implications of what is missing.

. I am here to reason and socialize with people. Not to engage in intense, intellectual competition.

I guess I am here for both.

 

[Wrangler]

you Cannot Be Christ without believing the Christian faith! Includes the divinity of Christ and the most blessed trinity!

Where is this in the Bible?

 

[Wrangler]

Athanasius Creed!

How many centuries after Christ died did this man-made Creed invented?

 

[BarneyFife]

I thought only recently you stated your understanding of 1 John 5:7 changed (improved) as a result of this thread?

Correct. Unfortunately, apart from my discussion with you. Actually, I'm pretty sure I stumbled onto it during my own research.

I guess I am here for both.

Fair enough, all right. :)