I have a question that remains unanswered:

[David in NJ]

You are throwing out the garbage along with the meal. Yes, the Father raised Christ from the dead. Yes, fathers live before their children. But where you miss the depth and beauty of the good news is the sacrifice made by the Father and Son. The eternal risk taken by both in order to save worms like me and you. By sacrifice I'm not just limiting that to Calvary. Christ was begotten as the Son of the Almighty before creation, and all things were made by the Father through the agency of His Son, the Word. He them gave His Son to the human race. Forever, Christ is linked to humanity in ways that can never been broken. Even in nature. Divinity united with humanity. God gave His Son, at the unbelievable risk of losing Him if He failed in His mission through sin. That's sacrifice.
Finally but not least, Jesus is the Son of God. Literally. Everything God does He does to perfection. Our children are not express images of ourselves. They have similarities, but are unique in personality and character and looks. But the Son of God is a perfect expression in human form of the Father. The express image. A perfect reproduction. Our children are human. Like begets like. God's only begotten child, begotten not created as were the angels, begotten not adopted as are we, but begotten with all the fullness of the Godhead bodily. Therefore it is entirely appropriate to call Him Good having inherited His Father's name, and everything His Father is, except rank. That is why God...
KJV Hebrews 1:8
8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.

You said: "Even in nature. Divinity united with humanity. God gave His Son, at the unbelievable risk of losing Him if He failed in His mission through sin."

All that you said, again beautiful and true, but this one statement is not to be overlooked.

Since the Son is in the Bosom of the Father and was never separated from the Father when He took on human form and the Word became flesh (John 1:14).
Had the Word, that was God from the beginning(John1:1) FAILED - God the Father, Son and Holy Spirit with all Creation would of been become the possession of Satan for All Eternity.

How much more then what we can comprehend is the Height and Width and Depth of His Love and Sacrifice for us.

And HE did not fail for HE could not and therefore HE has made the Way to Perfection, Open to us.

In Him and through faith in Him we may enter God’s presence with boldness and confidence. So I ask you not to be discouraged because of my sufferings for you, which are your glory. ... for this reason I bow my knees before the Father, from whom every family in heaven and on earth derives its name. I ask that out of the riches of His glory He may strengthen you with power through His Spirit in your inner being, so that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith. Then you, being rooted and grounded in love, will have power, together with all the saints, to comprehend the length and width and height and depth of the love of Christ, and to know this love that surpasses knowledge, that you may be filled with all the fullness of God. Ephesians 3:12-19

 

[Brakelite]

Jesus was not immortal sir, and he became a human, a sinless human as was Adam who sinned and lost life for us, Jesus as a perfect human was the corresponding (equal) sacrifice needed to buy back what Adam lost. It was soul for soul, not God for human, the ransom was equal to what was lost.

Jesus of course was created as the Bible teaches, only Jehovah always existed. I am not sure we will ever understand that.

Only a divine person could atone for a divine law.
Jesus was the archangel, yes. But that term merely means boss of the angels. It doesn't mean he is an angel. I agree with you that Jesus is Michael. But there is no scriptural passage or text that describes Michael as a created being. The title Lord of Hosts is a direct parallel to archangel.
You are wrong however thinking Jesus wasn't immortal.
KJV 1 John 5:10-12
10 He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son.
11 And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.
12 He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.

The only reason Jesus could die was because the life He had, inherited from His Father, is the same life as the Father. Immortal. And being a gift, He could give it up, or as He said, lay it down. Only someone with the power over His own life could choose to lay it down and die, sacrificing it on behalf of others.
The Son of God fulfilled the law. That law was the law of God, as sacred as God Himself, as it was a written transcript of His character. Only someone equal to the law in holiness and sacredness, equal to the Father in character and holiness, could make Atonement for it's transgression.

 

[amadeus]

I'm not sure why you say remembering the brass serpent would help me. It was only a type/shadow of Christ, not Christ Himself, right? :)

When Moses made it from brass in Numbers 21:8 it was a type/shadow of Jesus which saved those who looked on it from the bites of poisonous snakes. What had it become in II Kings 18:4 when King Hezekiah destroyed it? What was the difference? The former was a type of the Word of God and the latter was an idol imitating it. Are there any false men of God using the Bible itself, [calling what they have the Word of God] improperly and fooling people?

Is Jesus the Word of God? Can anyone destroy the Word of God?
Is not the Word of God alive?

Consider when a man burns up the Book, the Bible: Has he destroyed the Word of God or simply the flesh of it without the Spirit which gives Life to it? Do words printed in the Bible have any Life in them before they are consumed by you or me or someone else and quickened in us by the Holy Spirit?

Has anyone made the book, the Bible, into a false god with no real power against the Living Word of God? Did not Satan attempt to use the scripture against Jesus?

" [God] Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life." II Cor 3:6

To me it boils down to Jesus is the Word of God, but it is much more complicated than that. Jesus is the name given to the born Messiah [Christ]. Rev 19:13 [And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God] is saying that his name is the Word of God. The Word became flesh. And God had already put a name to that Word, that flesh, Jesus [ Jehovah is salvation].

Without understanding all of the original languages should I or should anyone rely on a single translator [even if I were the qualified one] of a single word in a single verse written? I've done enough translations [not Greek or Hebrew] to understand the difficulty at times to convey exactly the same meaning as the original speaker or writer of a complex thought. It is not difficult for God to do it nor for a hungry heart to receive it. The carnal heart will find it very difficult indeed, if even possible. I will find it very difficult indeed when I try to explain correctly something from the scripture that God has not explained to me. [There is a lot that falls into that category for me.]

It is difficult [impossible?] for us to understand in our carnal minds even just what the Word of God is. People want to confine it to a book, the Bible, but I believe God effectively spoke the Word before any man ever wrote down any part of what we now call scripture. It is definitely a helpful book, but without proper Interpretation who can understand God's message in it? Without the help of the Holy Spirit will not our efforts result in a private interpretation? The Message was contained in Jesus. The Word that became flesh was/is Jesus. The proper Interpretation is ours when and if the Word is written in our heart [quickened within us]. God does not write a verbatim copy of a Bible verse or verses in any language [including the first human languages in which it was written] in or on our hearts. What He writes in us, when He does, is much deeper and more comprehensive than that.

 

[BarneyFife]

@Wrangler

This discussion is devoid of profitable results. All evidence suggests to me that you seem to be here merely to insist in no uncertain terms that there can be no correct interpretation of the Bible except your own. Or that it's somehow completely objective. Or both. And that's fine but it's not similar to my burden at all. I am here to reason and socialize with people. Not to engage in intense, intellectual competition. I know that spiritual things are spiritually discerned. And mental calisthenics bore and annoy me. I think it would be wise for me to discontinue replying to your assertions. In stating this I am conceding absolutely nothing. I wish you the best.:)

 

[BarneyFife]

When Moses made it from brass in Numbers 21:8 it was a type/shadow of Jesus which saved those who looked on it from the bites of poisonous snakes. What had it become in II Kings 18:4 when King Hezekiah destroyed it? What was the difference? The former was a type of the Word of God and the latter was an idol imitating it. Are there any false men of God using the Bible itself, [calling what they have the Word of God] improperly and fooling people?

Is Jesus the Word of God? Can anyone destroy the Word of God?
Is not the Word of God alive?

Consider when a man burns up the Book, the Bible: Has he destroyed the Word of God or simply the flesh of it without the Spirit which gives Life to it? Do words printed in the Bible have any Life in them before they are consumed by you or me or someone else and quickened in us by the Holy Spirit?

Has anyone made the book, the Bible, into a false god with no real power against the Living Word of God? Did not Satan attempt to use the scripture against Jesus?

" [God] Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life." II Cor 3:6

To me it boils down to Jesus is the Word of God, but it is much more complicated than that. Jesus is the name given to the born Messiah [Christ]. Rev 19:13 [And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God] is saying that his name is the Word of God. The Word became flesh. And God had already put a name to that Word, that flesh, Jesus [ Jehovah is salvation].

Without understanding all of the original languages should I or should anyone rely on a single translator [even if I were the qualified one] of a single word in a single verse written? I've done enough translations [not Greek or Hebrew] to understand the difficulty at times to convey exactly the same meaning as the original speaker or writer of a complex thought. It is not difficult for God to do it nor for a hungry heart to receive it. The carnal heart will find it very difficult indeed, if even possible. I will find it very difficult indeed when I try to explain correctly something from the scripture that God has not explained to me. [There is a lot that falls into that category for me.]

It is difficult [impossible?] for us to understand in our carnal minds even just what the Word of God is. People want to confine it to a book, the Bible, but I believe God effectively spoke the Word before any man ever wrote down any part of what we now call scripture. It is definitely a helpful book, but without proper Interpretation who can understand God's message in it? Without the help of the Holy Spirit will not our efforts result in a private interpretation? The Message was contained in Jesus. The Word that became flesh was/is Jesus. The proper Interpretation is ours when and if the Word is written in our heart [quickened within us]. God does not write a verbatim copy of a Bible verse or verses in any language [including the first human languages in which it was written] in or on our hearts. What He writes in us, when He does, is much deeper and more comprehensive than that.

I get it.

 

[GEN2REV]

1 John 5:7-8KJV
7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.
8 And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.

The conversation I was having with David was in reference to a written verse in scripture stating "God is three persons."

It doesn't exist.

 

[David in NJ]

The conversation I was having with David was in reference to a written verse in scripture stating "God is three persons."

It doesn't exist.

If you cannot see , then how can you say "It does not exist" ?

Do you have evidence in Scripture to bring forth that proves "it does not exist"?

 

[David in NJ]

Only a divine person could atone for a divine law.
Jesus was the archangel, yes. But that term merely means boss of the angels. It doesn't mean he is an angel. I agree with you that Jesus is Michael. But there is no scriptural passage or text that describes Michael as a created being. The title Lord of Hosts is a direct parallel to archangel.
You are wrong however thinking Jesus wasn't immortal.
KJV 1 John 5:10-12
10 He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son.
11 And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.
12 He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.

The only reason Jesus could die was because the life He had, inherited from His Father, is the same life as the Father. Immortal. And being a gift, He could give it up, or as He said, lay it down. Only someone with the power over His own life could choose to lay it down and die, sacrificing it on behalf of others.
The Son of God fulfilled the law. That law was the law of God, as sacred as God Himself, as it was a written transcript of His character. Only someone equal to the law in holiness and sacredness, equal to the Father in character and holiness, could make Atonement for it's transgression.

Maybe i missed something in the Scriptures - where does it say that our Lord Jesus Christ is Michael the archangel?

 

[Brakelite]

@amadeus the scripture itself tells us that it alone is the basis for truth. The word of God that goes forth from His mouth is the power of God.
KJV Isaiah 8:20
20 To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.
The law... The first 5 books of Moses.
The testimony... The prophets.
KJV Luke 16:29-31
29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.
30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.
31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

KJV Luke 24:25-27, 32
25 Then he said unto them, O fools, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken:
26 Ought not Christ to have suffered these things, and to enter into his glory?
27 And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.
32 And they said one to another, Did not our heart burn within us, while he talked with us by the way, and while he opened to us the scriptures?

KJV Luke 24:36-48
36 And as they thus spake, Jesus himself stood in the midst of them, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you.
37 But they were terrified and affrighted, and supposed that they had seen a spirit.
38 And he said unto them, Why are ye troubled? and why do thoughts arise in your hearts?
39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.
40 And when he had thus spoken, he shewed them his hands and his feet.
41 And while they yet believed not for joy, and wondered, he said unto them, Have ye here any meat?
42 And they gave him a piece of a broiled fish, and of an honeycomb.
43 And he took it, and did eat before them.
44 And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.
45 Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures,
46 And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day:
47 And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.
48 And ye are witnesses of these things.

 

[Brakelite]

The people of God are directed to the Scriptures as their safeguard against the influence of false teachers and the delusive power of spirits of darkness. Satan employs every possible device to prevent men from obtaining a knowledge of the Bible; for its plain utterances reveal his deceptions. At every revival of God's work the prince of evil is aroused to more intense activity; he is now putting forth his utmost efforts for a final struggle against Christ and His followers. The last great delusion is soon to open before us. Antichrist is to perform his marvelous works in our sight. So closely will the counterfeit resemble the true that it will be impossible to distinguish between them except by the Holy Scriptures. By their testimony every statement and every miracle must be tested.
Those who endeavor to obey all the commandments of God will be opposed and derided. They can stand only in God. In order to endure the trial before them, they must understand the will of God as revealed in His word; they can honor Him only as they have a right conception of His character, government, and purposes, and act in accordance with them. None but those who have fortified the mind with the truths of the Bible will stand through the last great conflict. To every soul will come the searching test: Shall I obey God rather than men? The decisive hour is even now at hand. Are our feet planted on the rock of God's immutable word? Are we prepared to stand firm in defense of the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus? GC 593.1 - GC 593.2

 

[David in NJ]

The people of God are directed to the Scriptures as their safeguard against the influence of false teachers and the delusive power of spirits of darkness. Satan employs every possible device to prevent men from obtaining a knowledge of the Bible; for its plain utterances reveal his deceptions. At every revival of God's work the prince of evil is aroused to more intense activity; he is now putting forth his utmost efforts for a final struggle against Christ and His followers. The last great delusion is soon to open before us. Antichrist is to perform his marvelous works in our sight. So closely will the counterfeit resemble the true that it will be impossible to distinguish between them except by the Holy Scriptures. By their testimony every statement and every miracle must be tested.
Those who endeavor to obey all the commandments of God will be opposed and derided. They can stand only in God. In order to endure the trial before them, they must understand the will of God as revealed in His word; they can honor Him only as they have a right conception of His character, government, and purposes, and act in accordance with them. None but those who have fortified the mind with the truths of the Bible will stand through the last great conflict. To every soul will come the searching test: Shall I obey God rather than men? The decisive hour is even now at hand. Are our feet planted on the rock of God's immutable word? Are we prepared to stand firm in defense of the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus? GC 593.1 - GC 593.2

HALLELUJAH

 

[Brakelite]

Maybe i missed something in the Scriptures - where does it say that our Lord Jesus Christ is Michael the archangel?

Identifying Michael as the tangible manifestation of Jesus is similar to what is known as a Christophany. The name “Michael” appears only 15 times in the Bible. Since ten of them are, for the most part, people listed in genealogies, it should be fairly easy to identify who he really is with the remaining five references. Those references are: Daniel 10:13, 21, 12:1, Jude 1:9, Revelation 12:7. Let’s examine each of them one by one:
Jude 1:9: “Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee.”
This text identifies Michael as the “archangel.” The only other place in the Bible that uses this term is 1 Thessalonians 4:16:
“For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first.”
Here we read that Jesus has the “voice of the archangel.” He is not borrowing the voice of another being. No, it is literally his voice, because it is at the sound of his voice that the dead are raised from their graves. Compare this with the following texts:
“Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live. … Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.” (John 5:25, 28-29)
In no uncertain terms, we see here that Jesus is that archangel whose voice raises the dead. It’s noteworthy that the dispute is over the body of Moses, who later we see resurrected (Matthew 17:3). The fact that Jesus, and not Satan, has the power to resurrect, this grants us more evidence as to who Michael actually is and why Satan tried to resist him.
Additionally, there is a striking parallel between Jude 1:9 and Zechariah 3:2: “And the LORD said unto Satan, The LORD rebuke thee, O Satan; even the LORD that hath chosen Jerusalem rebuke thee: is not this a brand plucked out of the fire?” The rebuking is, in fact, done by “the LORD.
Daniel 12:1: “And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book. And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.” (Daniel 12:1-2)
This next text transitions well with the three we just examined because here we also find the resurrection of the dead taking place at the appearance of the archangel. Angels do not have the power to resurrect the dead. That is a prerogative of deity. It is not Michael, as a created angelic being, raising the dead… it is Jesus, manifested as “Michael,” who resurrects the dead.
Daniel 10:13: “But the prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood me one and twenty days: but, lo, Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me; and I remained there with the kings of Persia.”
This text calls Michael “one of the chief princes.” Contextually there are two other princes mentioned, the Prince of Persia (verse 13) and the Prince of Grecia (verse 20). Princes are above other people so it follows that these princes are “chief” among their people. Obviously, when the passage says one of it is referring to the princes that the passage is talking about.
Young’s Literal Translation offers an alternative reading, “and lo, Michael, first of the chief heads…” Both first or one of are appropriate translations because Daniel 12:1 says that Michael is the “great” prince. Thus, though there are two other princes, Michael is the first and greatest of them all.
Revelation 12:7: “And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels.”
This text identifies Michael as the commander of angels (“his angels”). This interpretation works very well with the actual meaning of the word “archangel.”3 The greek word ἀρχάγγελος literally means, “chief of the angels.” Thus Michael is the leader of all the heavenly angels.
Daniel 10:21: “But I will shew thee that which is noted in the scripture of truth: and there is none that holdeth with me in these things, but Michael your prince.” (Daniel 10:21).
Probably the most significant detail about this verse is that it identifies Michael as the leader of God’s people as well. This is deduced from the fact that it says “your prince” in contrast to the other two princes which belong to Persia and Greece.
What we have gathered so far is strong evidence for Christophany when it comes to the appearance of Michael:
A) Jesus, not an angel, is the one who resurrects the dead:
“Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live.” (John 11:25)
B) Jesus, not an angel, is the one who commands and leads the angels:
“The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity.” (Matthew 13:41)
“And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True… And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God. And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.” (Revelation 19:11-14)
C) And Jesus, not an angel, is the leader of God’s people:
“But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.” (1 Corinthians 11:3)
Putting all this together we are presented with two options: either there are two Beings in heaven, each performing the same roles, or one being. Either both Jesus and Michael resurrect the dead, commands the angels and leads God’s people, or Jesus as Michael resurrects the dead, commands the angels and leads God’s people. In light of the evidence presented I think any reasonable Bible student well understands that only Jesus has the power to perform all three of these tasks.

 

[GEN2REV]

If you cannot see , then how can you say "It does not exist" ?

Do you have evidence in Scripture to bring forth that proves "it does not exist"?

The onus is on you to produce the verse.

Have you produced the verse yet? You've had quite some time.

I can't very well see it if you don't produce it.

 

[Abaxvahl]

I don’t see the "essence" concept really doesn't factor in here. God can share His love with a disciple, having them in turn be truly loving. Same with His disire for righteousness, mercy, etc. Fully and truly sharing these 100%. I’ll touch more on this in a moment.

“Immutability “: totally the same- God’s will, goodness, etc doesn’t change at all.
Simplicity is also unchanged.

There are difference in “outside of time/space” and “immaterial “ points. Those philosophical frameworks simply aren’t a thing in LDS Christian theology.

When the “essence “ difference most comes up is actually talking about man (using that term genetically to include women) and his relationship with God. God can truly share His goodness/will/love/mercy/etc with His disciples 100%. No limits. Fully shared, joint heir with Christ.

When it isn't a thing in LDS theology does it mean that it's denied or just not affirmed? For if there is immutability then that must mean there was never change, and time is the measure of a change and was created, along with matter being in flux and not immutable so it must be that God has those traits.

The essence thing is interesting, but if God is immutable there must be some limit because even in the Resurrection of glory we do not ourselves become that, for we are going to be praising God on New Earth and Jesus in His Resurrected body changed and did things. The saying is and I'd agree "God became man so many could become God" but that is all God is by grace we become save His essence, for example we do not become eternal or always existent because of this deification which takes place even during life here.

Simplicity I also do not get for if the three are eternal they must also be simple, so there can not be three what-is that are together eternal that would be some sort of composition.

For what reason where these ideas not made use of in LDS theology for it seems to me so far that it wants to affirm the same without following it to the end conclusions.

 

[theefaith]

Says the guy who posted he did not mean anything by his post.

It’s unclear if you meant that individual post or, as a rule, all your posts, but on my planet, words have meaning and ideas have consequences. Scientific inquiry is supposed to begin with a fixed premise that leads to a tentative conclusion.

Trinitarianism starts with a fanatical conclusion and alters ANYTHING to ‘support’ it - including Definition, Logic, Language Usage and History. They cannot even recognize that Jesus died and was resurrected by God, as explicitly stated - not implied or figuratively expressed - but explicitly stated in Acts 17:31 and is the very heart of the Good News.

Father’s create sons. Father’s and sons are not the same being. Father’s exist before their sons exist.

Let me ask you a few simple questions;

1. Why would Jesus talk about his God if he were God?
2. Why would Rev 1:1 say God gave Jesus a revelation if Jesus were God?
3. And why would Jesus say his Father is the only true God, if Jesus was God?

According to trinitarians, the plain words of Scripture are there only to confuse us!

you Cannot Be Christ without believing the Christian faith! Includes the divinity of Christ and the most blessed trinity!

 

[amadeus]

@amadeus the scripture itself tells us that it alone is the basis for truth. The word of God that goes forth from His mouth is the power of God.
KJV Isaiah 8:20
20 To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.
The law... The first 5 books of Moses.
The testimony... The prophets.
KJV Luke 16:29-31
29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.
30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.
31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

KJV Luke 24:25-27, 32
25 Then he said unto them, O fools, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken:
26 Ought not Christ to have suffered these things, and to enter into his glory?
27 And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.
32 And they said one to another, Did not our heart burn within us, while he talked with us by the way, and while he opened to us the scriptures?

KJV Luke 24:36-48
36 And as they thus spake, Jesus himself stood in the midst of them, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you.
37 But they were terrified and affrighted, and supposed that they had seen a spirit.
38 And he said unto them, Why are ye troubled? and why do thoughts arise in your hearts?
39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.
40 And when he had thus spoken, he shewed them his hands and his feet.
41 And while they yet believed not for joy, and wondered, he said unto them, Have ye here any meat?
42 And they gave him a piece of a broiled fish, and of an honeycomb.
43 And he took it, and did eat before them.
44 And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.
45 Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures,
46 And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day:
47 And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.
48 And ye are witnesses of these things.

Was Jesus dead?

"Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost." Matt 27:50

"And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost." Luke 23:46

Was Jesus dead? How many people did he heal from the moment he gave up the ghost up until the moment he resurrected? Without the resurrection, that is without the quickening, it was/is a dead body, it was/is a dead book.

"It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life." John 6:63

Give God the glory... for though Jesus was dead for 3 days, he did resurrect! He was quickened! And we who have been dead from our mother's womb... where is our promise? Where is our quickening?

"But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth." Acts 1:8

"And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place.
And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting.
And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them.
And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance." Acts 2:1-4

"Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call." Acts 2:38-39

 

[theefaith]

"Neither the true faith nor eternal salvation is to be found outside the Holy Catholic Church."
--Pope Pius IX


Athanasius Creed!
(From the early church)

Whoever desires to be saved must above all hold to the catholic faith.

Anyone who does not keep it whole and entire will doubtless perish eternally.

Now this is the catholic faith:

That we worship one God in trinity and the trinity in unity, neither blending their persons nor dividing their essence. For the person of the Father is a distinct person, the person of the Son is another,
and that of the Holy Spirit still another.
But the divinity of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit is one, their glory equal, their majesty coeternal.
Etc.

 

[theefaith]

Because otherwise, one would have to arrogantly presume the almighty Creator of the Universe is unable to reveal himself in a way we can understand. Mark 7:13

Christ is the rule of faith for Christians
He revealed the faith to his church the apostles and saints Jude 1:3
Jn 1:16-17
Acts 2;42 the scripture commands you to obey the doctrine of the apostles
We must be taught not read for yourself and make up any doctrine you please
Matt 28:19 Lk 1:4 acts 8 the eunuch had scripture God sent an apostle to teach him the truth

 

[GEN2REV]

Whoever desires to be saved must above all hold to the catholic faith.

Yeah, yeah. We've heard it all before, TF.

All non-catholics will burn in hell, so on and so forth, world without end.

 

[Abaxvahl]

Identifying Michael as the tangible manifestation of Jesus is similar to what is known as a Christophany. The name “Michael” appears only 15 times in the Bible. Since ten of them are, for the most part, people listed in genealogies, it should be fairly easy to identify who he really is with the remaining five references. Those references are: Daniel 10:13, 21, 12:1, Jude 1:9, Revelation 12:7. Let’s examine each of them one by one:
Jude 1:9: “Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee.”
This text identifies Michael as the “archangel.” The only other place in the Bible that uses this term is 1 Thessalonians 4:16:
“For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first.”
Here we read that Jesus has the “voice of the archangel.” He is not borrowing the voice of another being. No, it is literally his voice, because it is at the sound of his voice that the dead are raised from their graves. Compare this with the following texts:
“Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live. … Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.” (John 5:25, 28-29)
In no uncertain terms, we see here that Jesus is that archangel whose voice raises the dead. It’s noteworthy that the dispute is over the body of Moses, who later we see resurrected (Matthew 17:3). The fact that Jesus, and not Satan, has the power to resurrect, this grants us more evidence as to who Michael actually is and why Satan tried to resist him.
Additionally, there is a striking parallel between Jude 1:9 and Zechariah 3:2: “And the LORD said unto Satan, The LORD rebuke thee, O Satan; even the LORD that hath chosen Jerusalem rebuke thee: is not this a brand plucked out of the fire?” The rebuking is, in fact, done by “the LORD.
Daniel 12:1: “And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book. And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.” (Daniel 12:1-2)
This next text transitions well with the three we just examined because here we also find the resurrection of the dead taking place at the appearance of the archangel. Angels do not have the power to resurrect the dead. That is a prerogative of deity. It is not Michael, as a created angelic being, raising the dead… it is Jesus, manifested as “Michael,” who resurrects the dead.
Daniel 10:13: “But the prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood me one and twenty days: but, lo, Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me; and I remained there with the kings of Persia.”
This text calls Michael “one of the chief princes.” Contextually there are two other princes mentioned, the Prince of Persia (verse 13) and the Prince of Grecia (verse 20). Princes are above other people so it follows that these princes are “chief” among their people. Obviously, when the passage says one of it is referring to the princes that the passage is talking about.
Young’s Literal Translation offers an alternative reading, “and lo, Michael, first of the chief heads…” Both first or one of are appropriate translations because Daniel 12:1 says that Michael is the “great” prince. Thus, though there are two other princes, Michael is the first and greatest of them all.
Revelation 12:7: “And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels.”
This text identifies Michael as the commander of angels (“his angels”). This interpretation works very well with the actual meaning of the word “archangel.”3 The greek word ἀρχάγγελος literally means, “chief of the angels.” Thus Michael is the leader of all the heavenly angels.
Daniel 10:21: “But I will shew thee that which is noted in the scripture of truth: and there is none that holdeth with me in these things, but Michael your prince.” (Daniel 10:21).
Probably the most significant detail about this verse is that it identifies Michael as the leader of God’s people as well. This is deduced from the fact that it says “your prince” in contrast to the other two princes which belong to Persia and Greece.
What we have gathered so far is strong evidence for Christophany when it comes to the appearance of Michael:
A) Jesus, not an angel, is the one who resurrects the dead:
“Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live.” (John 11:25)
B) Jesus, not an angel, is the one who commands and leads the angels:
“The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity.” (Matthew 13:41)
“And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True… And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God. And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.” (Revelation 19:11-14)
C) And Jesus, not an angel, is the leader of God’s people:
“But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.” (1 Corinthians 11:3)
Putting all this together we are presented with two options: either there are two Beings in heaven, each performing the same roles, or one being. Either both Jesus and Michael resurrect the dead, commands the angels and leads God’s people, or Jesus as Michael resurrects the dead, commands the angels and leads God’s people. In light of the evidence presented I think any reasonable Bible student well understands that only Jesus has the power to perform all three of these tasks.

For 1 Thess 4 what justifies this being the same archangel just because the same word is used? Also the word "with" which can mean "in" or "by" what makes it necessarily His voice? "He who hears you hears me" does not make "me" into "you," but shows the synergy between creatures and God. Moreover what makes the shout/voice necessarily the same which raises the dead? It is separated by "and" which can be a sequential thing not only a concurrent thing in the Scriptures. I also do not see what makes the Transfiguration appearances a Resurrection.

I do not see how a piece of this argument is made on a singular translation from YLT concerning Daniel 12:1 to say Michael is the most chief instead of one of the chiefs. The overwhelming amount of translations, even the Vulgate and the Septuagint, give "one of." What justifies Young's decision? As for what archangel means in Greek, sure, but what of the "one" which precedes it in Daniel? And regardless of the literal meaning what is it used as? What justifies this use? I also would say that it is significant that Michael leads Israel, but because other princes lead other nations it seems to be a common thing and not a special thing. They are sent to service after all as Hebrews says, and we know why God made the nations.