The 'blessed virgin Mary'

[Heart2Soul]

By 16th and 17th century standards, you would be deemed a heretic by all of Protestantism. The theological flip-flop didn't occur until the mid 18th century due to the false philosophies of the Enlightenment Era, which had influence on liberal modernist Protestants. Small pockets of this kind of thinking gradually spread like a virus. Denial of the PVM is a man made tradition, and a recent one at that.
"Mary a sinner" and "Mary had other children" are doctrines of demons because they both diminish the uniqueness of the Incarnation. The sense of the sacred is absent.

My only concern is what my Father says of me....and I already shared that we come from different doctrines of faith. I seek the Holy Spirit when there is topics such as this and ask Him to show me any error in my understanding. So far He hasn't said anything about Mary.

 

[Heart2Soul]

Lk 1:34 Then said Mary unto the angel, How shall this be, seeing I know not a man?
(This verse imply’s a vow of perpetual virginity, She refuses even the exalted dignity of mother of God and mother of our savior if it means violating Her vow of perpetual virginity)

Oy Veh!
I will not argue with you....I humbly agree to disagree with this belief.

 

[Illuminator]

Of course, most Christians today still believe in the perpetual virginity of Mary (Catholics and Orthodox). The practice of most Protestants today of denying the perpetual virginity of Mary is a fairly recent innovation – a peculiar historical aberration, particularly since certain Protestants, such as evangelicals, would consider themselves to be conservative Christians – that can't even find historical precedent among the primary magisterial Reformers; for that, one can only look to a hand-full of 4th century teachers who were otherwise universally rejected as heretics.

Catholics, on the other hand, have maintained the 2000 year tradition that our blessed and holy mother Mary was indeed not only a virgin before Jesus' birth but also perpetually a virgin thereafter.
A Protestant Defense of Mary's Perpetual Virginity (aleteia.org)

 

[Illuminator]

My only concern is what my Father says of me....and I already shared that we come from different doctrines of faith. I seek the Holy Spirit when there is topics such as this and ask Him to show me any error in my understanding. So far He hasn't said anything about Mary.

The Holy Spirit's silence doesn't prove your understandings are correct, either. Silence could be an invitation to dig deeper.

 

[Stumpmaster]

James the Lord's brother from the same mother,
Too bad about those who believe something other.

 

[Mungo]

James the Lord's brother from the same mother,
Too bad about those who believe something other.

Scripture does not say that Mary was James' mother.

 

[theefaith]

My only concern is what my Father says of me....and I already shared that we come from different doctrines of faith. I seek the Holy Spirit when there is topics such as this and ask Him to show me any error in my understanding. So far He hasn't said anything about Mary.

scripture only admits of one faith eph 4:5 Jude 1:3

one mind one heart

unity of faith in one true church founded by Christ on the person of peter

sects and heretics not included

 

[theefaith]

Oy Veh!
I will not argue with you....I humbly agree to disagree with this belief.

luther says it is article of faith necessary for salvation

Martin Luther

It is an article of faith that Mary is Mother of the Lord and still a virgin. … Christ, we believe, came forth from a womb left perfectly intact. (Weimer’s The Works of Luther, English translation by Pelikan, Concordia, St. Louis, v. 11, pp. 319-320; v. 6. p. 510.)

John Calvin

(On the Heretic Helvidius) Helvidius displayed excessive ignorance in concluding that Mary must have had many sons, because Christ’s “brothers” are sometimes mentioned. (Harmony of Matthew, Mark and Luke, sec. 39 [Geneva, 1562], vol. 2 / From Calvin’s Commentaries, translated by William Pringle, Grand Rapids, Michigan: Eerdmans, 1949, p.215; on Matthew 13:55)

[On Matt 1:25:] The inference he [Helvidius] drew from it was, that Mary remained a virgin no longer than till her first birth, and that afterwards she had other children by her husband . . . No just and well-grounded inference can be drawn from these words . . . as to what took place after the birth of Christ. He is called “first-born”; but it is for the sole purpose of informing us that he was born of a virgin . . . What took place afterwards the historian does not inform us . . . No man will obstinately keep up the argument, except from an extreme fondness for disputation. (Pringle, ibid., vol. I, p. 107)

Under the word “brethren” the Hebrews include all cousins and other relations, whatever may be the degree of affinity. (Pringle, ibid., vol. I, p. 283 / Commentary on John, [7:3])

John Wesley

‘I believe that He [Jesus] was made man, joining the human nature with the divine in one person; being conceived by the singular operation of the Holy Ghost, and born of the blessed Virgin Mary, who, as well after as before she brought Him forth, continued a pure and unspotted virgin’ (‘Letter to a Roman Catholic’, The Works of Rev. John Wesley, vol 10, p. 81).

 

[robert derrick]

So Mary and Jose[h's marriage was nothing special.
Here is a quote from another web site that expresses it well.

They were not like any other couple; the were the parents of God Incarnate! The wife in this couple was a living, sacred Tabernacle of the Lord, the Ark of the New Covenant, chosen and sanctified to bear the God man. How could St. Joseph even think of having sex with the sacred Ark of the New Covenant? He would have to have been a rash and sacrilegious man to presume to penetrate and impregnate with his own seed the sacred womb which had borne God! And considering Uzzah's terrible fate when he touched the original Ark (II Samuel 6:6-7), Joseph would not have gotten very far had he tried. Yet Scripture portrays him as a reverent man; hardly the type to try something like that.

Denying the ever-virginity of Mary subtly denies the divinity of Christ in the womb.

It would not be fitting that the womb that was made so holy by the actual presence of God could be used to bring sinners into the world as other children would have been. What has been consecrated to God (Mary's womb) should not be profaned.

Of course, if Jesus was not actually God, or not God until he was born, or his divinity not hypostatically united to his human nature……(all various heresies), then we are denying the divinity of Jesus who was true man and true God from his very conception.

Really? Going to try and convince people of Mariology by bringing in something written by someone who has not clue of the truth of Scripture?

If this stuff is what you cherish, then no wonder you can't stand Scripture alone.

They were not like any other couple; the were the parents of God Incarnate! The wife in this couple was a living, sacred Tabernacle of the Lord, the Ark of the New Covenant, chosen and sanctified to bear the God man. How could St. Joseph even think of having sex with the sacred Ark of the New Covenant? He would have to have been a rash and sacrilegious man to presume to penetrate and impregnate with his own seed the sacred womb which had borne God! And considering Uzzah's terrible fate when he touched the original Ark (II Samuel 6:6-7), Joseph would not have gotten very far had he tried. Yet Scripture portrays him as a reverent man; hardly the type to try something like that.

A great example of Mystical Babylon, if I ever heard one.

Mary is an ark of the new covenant, and her sacred womb a sacred tabernacle of the Lord.

No wonder they call them 'Sacred' traditions.

He would have to have been a rash and sacrilegious man to presume to penetrate and impregnate with his own seed the sacred womb which had borne God!

Wow. Now that's impressively indignant.

Sounds to me like a guy with some real marriage bed issues.

And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail. (Rev 11)

Looks like it's gotten Mother Mary pretty upset to. It must have been when Joseph got a little too touchy, with someone that was not supposed to be a real wife, but only a fraud.

Not the good believer Mary of Scripture, but the little shrew of mystical Mary from Babylon.

Denying the ever-virginity of Mary subtly denies the divinity of Christ in the womb.

Nothing subtle about it. I deny it. And Mary's womb was never made divine, so as to defraud her husband. Which she did not.

They had no sex in the marriage bed, until after Jesus was born.

 

[robert derrick]

scripture only admits of one faith eph 4:5 Jude 1:3

one mind one heart

unity of faith in one true church founded by Christ on the person of peter

sects and heretics not included

And the one faith of Jesus is known from Scripture.

Mary's womb is not the Lord's tabernacle.

Such heresy of mystified sects are not included.

 

[robert derrick]

By 16th and 17th century standards, you would be deemed a heretic by all of Protestantism. The theological flip-flop didn't occur until the mid 18th century due to the false philosophies of the Enlightenment Era, which had influence on liberal modernist Protestants. Small pockets of this kind of thinking gradually spread like a virus. Denial of the PVM is a man made tradition, and a recent one at that.
"Mary a sinner" and "Mary had other children" are doctrines of demons because they both diminish the uniqueness of the Incarnation. The sense of the sacred is absent. Was the Ark of the Covenant was just a box for storing sandals? The foreshadowing of the Ark of the New Covenant tells us something about the sense of the sacred. That's why anti-Mary Christians dismiss or ignore the OT. What God makes holy stays holy.

"Mary a sinner" and "Mary had other children" are doctrines of demons.

Forbidding to marry is a devil's doctrine. Never heard of a doctrine of demons.

The uniqueness of the conception of Christ as a babe in the womb, was that of the Spirit making the body of the babe, not the womb of the woman.

You idolize fleshy things.

Christians reject a mystical so-called Mother of God named 'Mary' by a mystical religion of the 'Sacred Womb'.

 

[robert derrick]

Where does it say they didn't consummate their marriage?

It says they didn't, until after the birth of Jesus.

 

[robert derrick]

If the reformers believed in the PVM and you assert they are all wrong, then where does that leave everything else the reformers taught?
No Protestant on the planet denied the PVM before the 18th century and I am still waiting for evidence to the contrary.

They hadn't yet shed all the traditional garbage that had gone before.

They began to read the Scriptures only again, and saw none of it there.

Which is why the common believer was kept from the Scriptures.

In time, the Scriptures renew the mind to that of Christ and His true faith, rather than that of men and their false traditions.

Mary and Joseph did not consummate their marriage, until after the birth of Jesus.

Mary's womb was not made a holy tabernacle that the Lord pitched.

 

[robert derrick]

So Mary and Jose[h's marriage was nothing special.
Here is a quote from another web site that expresses it well.

They were not like any other couple; the were the parents of God Incarnate! The wife in this couple was a living, sacred Tabernacle of the Lord, the Ark of the New Covenant, chosen and sanctified to bear the God man. How could St. Joseph even think of having sex with the sacred Ark of the New Covenant? He would have to have been a rash and sacrilegious man to presume to penetrate and impregnate with his own seed the sacred womb which had borne God! And considering Uzzah's terrible fate when he touched the original Ark (II Samuel 6:6-7), Joseph would not have gotten very far had he tried. Yet Scripture portrays him as a reverent man; hardly the type to try something like that.

Denying the ever-virginity of Mary subtly denies the divinity of Christ in the womb.

It would not be fitting that the womb that was made so holy by the actual presence of God could be used to bring sinners into the world as other children would have been. What has been consecrated to God (Mary's womb) should not be profaned.

Of course, if Jesus was not actually God, or not God until he was born, or his divinity not hypostatically united to his human nature……(all various heresies), then we are denying the divinity of Jesus who was true man and true God from his very conception.

Now of the things which we have spoken this is the sum: We have such an high priest, who is set on the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens; A minister of the sanctuary, and of the true tabernacle, which the Lord pitched, and not man.

So, the Lord pitched His tabernacle in the womb of Mary.

That must of been why all the kicking and leaping was going on. Trying to find more room to pitch His tent.

What has been consecrated to God (Mary's womb) should not be profaned.

There is a definite Sacred womb fetish going on here.

If Mary knew what you people would be doing with her womb, she'd probably scream.

There's more womb worship going on here than there is respect for Scripture:

And knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name JESUS.

 

[Taken]

Some cults have a thing about celibacy.

I am convinced Mary went on to give birth to other children after she gave birth to Jesus.

Mat 12:46 While he yet talked to the people, behold, his mother and his brethren stood without, desiring to speak with him.
Mat 13:55-56 Is not this the carpenter's son? is not his mother called Mary? and his brethren, James, and Joses, and Simon, and Judas? (56) And his sisters, are they not all with us? Whence then has this man all these things?
Gal 1:19 But other of the apostles saw I none, save James the Lord's brother.

Paramount insight -
Followers of Jesus STOOD WITH Jesus.
Those NOT following Jesus STOOD WITHOUT.
* Many were WITH Jesus, FOLLOWING, Hearing, Listening, Learning, Believing, WHILE Jesus was ON Earth.
* There is NO Teaching of Mary FOLLOWING Jesus' Ministry.
* There is NO Teaching of Mary being the "mother of God".
* NONE became "IN" Jesus, and "Jesus" "IN" them, Until Jesus Rose UP to Heaven.
* Mary is Present with the Disciples and Followers, WHEN they became spirit quickened.


Mat 12:46 While he yet talked to the people, behold, his mother and his brethren stood without, desiring to speak with him.

Luke 1:
[35] And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.

Isa 9:
[6] For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counseller, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

There is an ORDER according to Gods Way.
Jesus came forth OUT from God in Heaven TO Earth, In the Likeness AS a man, in a Body God Prepared, and Took upon Himself the seed of Faithful Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, as His Earthly Fathers, becoming MADE Revealed as a Son of man, Son of a virgin woman, being Highly Favored, because she was betrothed to a man OF the House of David, Thus MAKING JESUS, a lawful Heir to:
Abrahams' LAND
And
king Davids' EVERLASTING THRONE.

 

[Taken]

I have no objection to referring to Mary as the blessed virgin Mary, because every saint in Christ Jesus presented to the Lord, shall be a blessed and chaste virgin (2 Cor 11:2).

Mary; called blessed among women.
It is women who carry, bear, deliver babes.
And from one woman to another who has carried, beared, delivered babes they feel blessed with their gift from God....and certainly can believe the woman who was chosen to reveal the Lord Jesus, was highly blessed to be chosen to serve God in such a signifiant role.
Other persons have Served God in highly blessed and signifiant roles that no others have, and they also are remembered for their prominate and outstanding Service....YET....
We do not "pretend" they ARE appointed to Take on the Role of the Lord God, or BE EXALTED equally with the Lord God.

Regardless of HOW the Lord God Speaks or Appears to mankind...
The Lord God NEVER CHANGES.
He is WITHOUT beginning, WITHOUT ending, WITHOUT mother, WITHOUT father, WiTHOUT descent.

ON GODS FOOTSTOOL...(EARTH)...IS "appearances" a man CAN SEE....YET IS NOT that which IS IN HEAVEN; which a man can NOT see.

 

[face2face]

Paramount insight -
* There is NO Teaching of Mary being the "mother of God".
* * Mary is Present with the Disciples and Followers, WHEN they became spirit quickened.

Only that while Mary & Jesus's brothers clearly were raised with the Law of Moses and stood without, it is fact that over the course of Jesus' ministry Mary eventually came near the cross at his death. It would take longer for his brothers to become his followers.
Mary being alone raising her children could not compromise her life or the lives of her children in the same way Jesus did with the Pharisees. The threat of death for stepping out of line was very real as we see with Stephen. The sword to Mary's heart was not only witnessing the death of her son but also the reality her natural claim on him was worthless, she had to come to him like we do and become his disciple.

 

[robert derrick]

Paramount insight -
Followers of Jesus STOOD WITH Jesus.
Those NOT following Jesus STOOD WITHOUT.
* Many were WITH Jesus, FOLLOWING, Hearing, Listening, Learning, Believing, WHILE Jesus was ON Earth.
* There is NO Teaching of Mary FOLLOWING Jesus' Ministry.
* There is NO Teaching of Mary being the "mother of God".
* NONE became "IN" Jesus, and "Jesus" "IN" them, Until Jesus Rose UP to Heaven.
* Mary is Present with the Disciples and Followers, WHEN they became spirit quickened.


Mat 12:46 While he yet talked to the people, behold, his mother and his brethren stood without, desiring to speak with him.

Luke 1:
[35] And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.

Isa 9:
[6] For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counseller, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

There is an ORDER according to Gods Way.
Jesus came forth OUT from God in Heaven TO Earth, In the Likeness AS a man, in a Body God Prepared, and Took upon Himself the seed of Faithful Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, as His Earthly Fathers, becoming MADE Revealed as a Son of man, Son of a virgin woman, being Highly Favored, because she was betrothed to a man OF the House of David, Thus MAKING JESUS, a lawful Heir to:
Abrahams' LAND
And
king Davids' EVERLASTING THRONE.

Good point.

'Sacred' mother Mary, wasn't even a believer, until after His resurrection.

But Mariology is worse than we thought. They don't just worship Mary as mother, they worship her womb.

The religion of the 'Sacred Womb' has a deeply dystopian view of sex.

Some cults have a thing about celibacy.

And the womb.

 

[Taken]

Only that while Mary & Jesus's brothers clearly were raised with the Law of Moses and stood without, it is fact that over the course of Jesus' ministry Mary eventually came near the cross at his death. It would take longer for his brothers to become his followers.
Mary being alone raising her children could not compromise her life or the lives of her children in the same way Jesus did with the Pharisees. The threat of death for stepping out of line was very real as we see with Stephen. The sword to Mary's life was not only witnessing the death of her son but also the reality her natural claim on him was worthless, she had to come to him like we do and become his disciples.

Yes, she was an Earthly Human, and like all Earthly Humans, bodily die, return to dust, and remain Separated from God or Reconcilled unto God and Raised in an everylasting Glorified Body.

 

[face2face]

Yes, she was an Earthly Human, and like all Earthly Humans, bodily die, return to dust, and remain Separated from God or Reconcilled unto God and Raised in an everylasting Glorified Body.

Mary was born of sinful parents and born into sin and suffered the same bias as we do today. She is now asleep in the Lord awaiting the resurrection - Ecclesiastes 9:5