Scriptures that trinitarians Don't Want You to Know About - #5, Book of Acts

[Cooper]

The Israelites of old and the Jews of today are two different groups. I do not care about what they (the Jews of today) think, it's a false bloodless religion. I am of the same religion as Abraham, Israel is one.

You have not defined being, and I never said 3 is 1. I am aware of your signature. If you mean Jack and Jill are two beings as I mean it then that does not contradict the Trinity or repudiate it at all. You equated it to person, so I followed you. We both agree that the Father and the Son are two different persons then. They are not the same but they have the same nature just as Jack and Jill do. I fail to see the problem or the repudiation.

Someone once said to me, "Triplets are three persons with one nature and one set of genes." What do you think?
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[Abaxvahl]

Someone once said to me, "Triplets are three persons with one nature and one set of genes. The only difference is their names." What do you think?
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Of course all analogies fail but if taken just as a sketch of the oneness and threeness of God it could work. Taken too far it could cause problems due to the "splitting" and might cause someone to think of partialism as the explanation of the Trinity.

 

[Cooper]

Of course all analogies fail but if taken just as a sketch of the oneness and threeness of God it could work. Taken too far it could cause problems due to the "splitting" and might cause someone to think of partialism as the explanation of the Trinity.

OK. Have you seen the TV programme, Undercover Boss where the founder of a company becomes one of the workers while being one person?
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[Cooper]

Of course all analogies fail but if taken just as a sketch of the oneness and threeness of God it could work. Taken too far it could cause problems due to the "splitting" and might cause someone to think of partialism as the explanation of the Trinity.

I thought the analogy of triplets from the same womb at the same time was better than the Jack and Jill Analogy, and of course when they are split we have three persons like when the One God came among us.
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[Abaxvahl]

I thought the analogy of triplets from the same womb at the same time was better than the Jack and Jill Analogy, and of course when they are split we have three persons like when the One God came among us.
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I have seen clips of that show (mentioned above) and yes it is better than that by far.

 

[Wrangler]

You have not defined being

I am not a dictionary. Consult your favorite lexicon.

 

[Wrangler]

that does not contradict the Trinity or repudiate it at all.

What would totally repudiate the trinity?

 

[Wrangler]

We both agree that the Father and the Son are two different persons

I’ve repeatedly said God, who alone is the Father, and Jesus are different beings.

 

[Wrangler]

they have the same nature

Jesus and God absolutely do not have the same nature. Not sure where trinitarians get this but repeating something does not make it true.

Let’s examine a few facts.

1. Jesus died. God did not.
2. God raised Jesus from the dead. Jesus did not raise God from the dead.
3. Jesus is flesh. God is Spirit.
4. God choose, sent Jesus and told Jesus what to say. Jesus did not choose God, send God or tell God what to say
5. Jesus submitted to the will of God. God did not submit to the will of Jesus.

And STOP pretending the Father is not God alone. Jesus said it, which is good enough for me.


because You have given Me total authority over humanity. I have come bearing the plentiful gifts of God; and all who receive Me will experience everlasting life, a new intimate relationship with You (the one True God) and Jesus the Anointed (the One You have sent).
John 17:2-3

 

[Abaxvahl]

I am not a dictionary. Consult your favorite lexicon.

In any discussion it is necessary to define what you mean by an important word because as I knew beforehand when consulting a dictionary: there are multiple ways the same word can be used. Your refusal to define exactly what you mean when there could be clarity otherwise is odd to me. I can and will if asked define all the key words of my position, why do you not want to do the same?

 

[Abaxvahl]

What would totally repudiate the trinity?

Disproving any of it's central claims. One could go for it being a contradiction (many have but that is hard to prove), one could go for it not being in the Scriptures (this is hard to prove due to definition issues), and so on. Claiming things that Trinitarians do believe already and saying it to them isn't a proof, including but not limited to:

1) The Father being greater than the Son.
2) The Father being God, even only God.
3) The Son not knowing something the Father retains.

And so on. We already believe all of this, so repeating it to a Trinitarian doesn't exactly help.

 

[Abaxvahl]

I’ve repeatedly said God, who alone is the Father, and Jesus are different beings.

Without defining what you meant, except when you equated it to the word "person." Now I hope you are already aware that Trinitarians distinctly confess Three Persons, so saying that "they are different persons" to us is simply affirming what we already know and confess. That's not a revelation to a Trinitarian that there are Three Persons, and the Father is not the Person of the Son, the Son is not the Person of the Father, and the Spirit is not the Person of either. This has been confessed of old.

 

[Abaxvahl]

Jesus and God absolutely do not have the same nature. Not sure where trinitarians get this but repeating something does not make it true.

Let’s examine a few facts.

1. Jesus died. God did not.
2. God raised Jesus from the dead. Jesus did not raise God from the dead.
3. Jesus is flesh. God is Spirit.
4. God choose, sent Jesus and told Jesus what to say. Jesus did not choose God, send God or tell God what to say
5. Jesus submitted to the will of God. God did not submit to the will of Jesus.

And STOP pretending the Father is not God alone. Jesus said it, which is good enough for me.


because You have given Me total authority over humanity. I have come bearing the plentiful gifts of God; and all who receive Me will experience everlasting life, a new intimate relationship with You (the one True God) and Jesus the Anointed (the One You have sent).
John 17:2-3

I believe that the Father is God alone. This is also a Trinitarian claim. Not sure why you act like they did not see this verse when debating it with non-Trinitarians for centuries, but I believe that, amen to it. The Lord Jesus said it, how can it not be true? He is Truth itself!

As for your five facts, here are five facts:

1) The Son died, the Father did not. Amen.
2) The Father raised the Son from the dead, true, but I would contend with the second portion of your fact, for "what the Father does the Son does" and "I lay down my life and take it up again."
3) The Son has a human nature, the Father does not.
4) Wholly true.
5) Wholly true.

Not one of these contradicts the Trinitarian claims. I can affirm them with you, save what I excepted because it isn't Biblical, and we do know the Scripture is God-breathed and sufficient for all, even more than sufficient I'd say.

 

[farouk]

Without defining what you meant, except when you equated it to the word "person." Now I hope you are already aware that Trinitarians distinctly confess Three Persons, so saying that "they are different persons" to us is simply affirming what we already know and confess. That's not a revelation to a Trinitarian that there are Three Persons, and the Father is not the Person of the Son, the Son is not the Person of the Father, and the Spirit is not the Person of either. This has been confessed of old.

@Abaxvahl Moreover, this is the record of Scripture; the ultimate arbiter.

 

[Wrangler]

In any discussion it is necessary to define what you mean

No. Words are already defined. I’m just using these pre-existing words normally. I’m not using words to mean my own personal language usage.

Jack and Jill are 2 different Beings. God the Father is a different Being than the servant he chose, Jesus.

 

[Wrangler]

Disproving any of it's central claims.

Every single claim of the trinity is thoroughly disproved by Scripture, starting with the fact that the trinity is not in the Bible - not the word, not the doctrine.

The trinity is such an important doctrine that in 66 books, it is not mentioned once. Jesus did not teach the trinity. That should tell you something.

It’s not surprising that you do not hold this fallacious doctrine to any standard of proof. You are claiming the validity of the trinity and therefore, have the burden to proof its validity.

 

[Abaxvahl]

No. Words are already defined. I’m just using these pre-existing words normally. I’m not using words to mean my own personal language usage.

Jack and Jill are 2 different Beings. God the Father is a different Being than the servant he chose, Jesus.

Has nothing to do with your personal language usage, words have a multitude of senses. You could just open a dictionary quote which pre-defined sense you mean. "Being" by itself has at least 5 pre-defined uses.

 

[Wrangler]

I believe that the Father is God alone. This is also a Trinitarian claim.

Better check your facts.

 

[Abaxvahl]

Every single claim of the trinity is thoroughly disproved by Scripture, starting with the fact that the trinity is not in the Bible - not the word, not the doctrine.

The trinity is such an important doctrine that in 66 books, it is not mentioned once. Jesus did not teach the trinity. That should tell you something.

It’s not surprising that you do not hold this fallacious doctrine to any standard of proof. You are claiming the validity of the trinity and therefore, have the burden to proof its validity.

I believe He did teach it, and I do hold to the doctrine to proof. If it was shown to be false then I would change my position (and my Church). I was seriously going to join a non-Trinitarian Church before so it's not as if this is just something I inherited and haven't thought about.

 

[Abaxvahl]

Better check your facts.

Back to the Apostle's baptismal Creed, "I believe in one God the Father almighty, creator of Heaven and Earth, and in His Son..."

To the Nicene Creed recited every Sunday: "I believe in one God, the Father Almighty, maker of Heaven and earth, of all things visible and invisible..."

Back to Scripture: "for us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things and for whom we exist, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things and through whom we exist."

Facts checked, Snopes would approve.