The Council of Nicea vs another christian religion

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amadeus

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We are still attending zoom meetings sir. At this time we are scheduled to attend the spring assembly physically, but I seriously doubt that will be a reality. The governmental statistics show covid in Illinois to be very low, but the news speaks like it is out of hand. We have lost around 20,000 brothers/sisters to the disease, a staggering amount for sure. We have had a few in our congregation that have had it, but none have died from it.
Yes, with the exception of my once a week visit with my pastor for fellowship, Bible reading and prayer, my access to other believers is limited to my Internet connections. That is a blessing indeed, but I do miss the in person encounters. I do hope that God will make a way for them again while I have time. But... I will not tempt God on that. He is right here right now.

Give God the glory!
 

Robert Gwin

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Yes, with the exception of my once a week visit with my pastor for fellowship, Bible reading and prayer, my access to other believers is limited to my Internet connections. That is a blessing indeed, but I do miss the in person encounters. I do hope that God will make a way for them again while I have time. But... I will not tempt God on that. He is right here right now.

Give God the glory!

I am kind of the outcast on this Amad, the governing body does not recommend close association with any beyond our immediate household. They are doing that out of love, but I simply cannot handle it. Jesus prophesied that pestilences(diseases) would be part of our time period, and I fully accept that, diseases will be with us, but being locked up indoors to me is much worse. I suppose there is the very real chance that if we were studying with someone who caught covid from us, there may become a lawsuit out of it. It seems like that might become a near future reality.

I don't want the disease, but I actually think I may have had it as I visited my doctor in Feb of 2020 and was sick with what I thought was the flu, and then a month later they discovered this new disease. I do try to share outdoor activities with others, and in close proximity wear a mask.
 
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amadeus

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I am kind of the outcast on this Amad, the governing body does not recommend close association with any beyond our immediate household. They are doing that out of love, but I simply cannot handle it. Jesus prophesied that pestilences(diseases) would be part of our time period, and I fully accept that, diseases will be with us, but being locked up indoors to me is much worse. I suppose there is the very real chance that if we were studying with someone who caught covid from us, there may become a lawsuit out of it. It seems like that might become a near future reality.

I don't want the disease, but I actually think I may have had it as I visited my doctor in Feb of 2020 and was sick with what I thought was the flu, and then a month later they discovered this new disease. I do try to share outdoor activities with others, and in close proximity wear a mask.

"But he answered and said unto him that told him, Who is my mother? and who are my brethren?
And he stretched forth his hand toward his disciples, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren!
For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother." Matt 12:48-50

Jesus was clear, as I understand it, as to who his brothers were. What I have seen is that when in doubt as whether a person is doing the will of our Father, treat him as a brother. If he really is not, will it not be shown to us before we proceed too far in the wrong direction?

I remember going to many church fellowship meetings where of several different congregations of large numbers of people gathered in one place but for me so often I would be mostly all alone with God in spite of all those people around me. I remember many times after the formal service was over and everyone gathered for natural food and fellowship, desiring to find a person who wanted as I did to talk to a person face to face about the things of God. Most them wanted to speak rather about current events in the secular arenas of men [sports, politics and such] which very often held little interest for me.

Once in a while God would bless me with an encounter with a brother with a yearning similar to my own.

Many of the discussions on this forum, if they are that, really discourage me in the same ways even though they may put a "religious label" on them. There is an old song which comes to mind at times...


 

amadeus

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ok i wont ruin it for you then :)
Say on my friend, for often I find you bring to light for me anyway, things which really should be brought to light.

You understand that I really do not much think about the hereafter which many people presume is there for them. Even the song I posted which expresses one thought for me, distresses me when it brings to mind the idea that it all happens after they shovel the dirt on my face rather than here and now and today before the night cometh!
 
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bbyrd009

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Say on my friend, for often I find you bring to light for me anyway, things which really should be brought to light.

You understand that I really do not much think about the hereafter which many people presume is there for them. Even the song I posted which expresses one thought for me, distresses me when it brings to mind the idea that it all happens after they shovel the dirt on my face rather than here and now and today before the night cometh!
ok then, so, the world might not be our home, but the earth sure might be! Imo we live in a virtual miracle right now, only we are used to all of the miracles. I am struck by the look in a three year old’s—particularly boy’s—eyes, getting on my bus; i am a “god” to them, since i know how to operate the bus
 

amadeus

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ok then, so, the world might not be our home, but the earth sure might be! Imo we live in a virtual miracle right now, only we are used to all of the miracles. I am struck by the look in a three year old’s—particularly boy’s—eyes, getting on my bus; i am a “god” to them, since i know how to operate the bus
The 'earth' is simply the little bit of dirt forming our bodies. People look to planet Earth, when perhaps they need to be looking to planet Amadeus or bbyrd009 or whatever! Heaven is within us or it is not! Who has already a 3rd Heaven within and is always there with God? Who is rather moving back and forth between the Heaven of God and the hell of men?

Jesus came down to us in hell, did he not? He overcame the attractions of hell in himself, did he not?
 
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Robert Gwin

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"But he answered and said unto him that told him, Who is my mother? and who are my brethren?
And he stretched forth his hand toward his disciples, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren!
For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother." Matt 12:48-50

Jesus was clear, as I understand it, as to who his brothers were. What I have seen is that when in doubt as whether a person is doing the will of our Father, treat him as a brother. If he really is not, will it not be shown to us before we proceed too far in the wrong direction?

I remember going to many church fellowship meetings where of several different congregations of large numbers of people gathered in one place but for me so often I would be mostly all alone with God in spite of all those people around me. I remember many times after the formal service was over and everyone gathered for natural food and fellowship, desiring to find a person who wanted as I did to talk to a person face to face about the things of God. Most them wanted to speak rather about current events in the secular arenas of men [sports, politics and such] which very often held little interest for me.

Once in a while God would bless me with an encounter with a brother with a yearning similar to my own.

Many of the discussions on this forum, if they are that, really discourage me in the same ways even though they may put a "religious label" on them. There is an old song which comes to mind at times...




Of course every god has their followers Amad, and Jehovah does as well. In His word we have been commanded to gather with our brothers and sisters who worship Him, Heb 10:24,25. Today we still gather, although not in the flesh, rather by Zoom. Does He accept that? You be the judge, we believe He does. I am still amazed at how we instantly went into it, as if it were already in place, we have not had to miss one meeting. This pandemic seemed to just come out of nowhere, changing the world scene instantly, but Jehovah's people has not missed one meal sir.
 
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amadeus

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Of course every god has their followers Amad, and Jehovah does as well. In His word we have been commanded to gather with our brothers and sisters who worship Him, Heb 10:24,25. Today we still gather, although not in the flesh, rather by Zoom. Does He accept that? You be the judge, we believe He does. I am still amazed at how we instantly went into it, as if it were already in place, we have not had to miss one meeting. This pandemic seemed to just come out of nowhere, changing the world scene instantly, but Jehovah's people has not missed one meal sir.
Of course God accepts right things done which come from what He has places in our hearts. But never mind my judgement as it is you that must become and remain pleasing to God. If we submit to Him, will He not direct us? Without Him, truly, we can do nothing.

Give God the glory!
 

Abaxvahl

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There is always one simple Scripture that concludes every argument about Scripture and the things of God, and it usually the most obvious and plain of all:

Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish ought from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the LORD your God which I command you.

For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book.


Adding any oral and/or written tradition to 'accompany' Scripture for the doctrine and gospel of Christ, is adding to the commandment of God and the Word of Christ.

End of story.

Quoting two verses plainly out of context is a really bad and unbiblical argument.

1) The first is from Deuteronomy 4 where Moses says, "Now, Israel, listen to the rules and to the regulations that I am teaching you to do, in order that you may live and you may go in and you may take possession of the land that Yahweh, the God of your ancestors, is giving to you. You must not add to the word that I am commanding you, and you shall not take away from it in order to keep the commands of Yahweh your God that I am commanding you to observe. Your eyes have seen what Yahweh did with the case of Baal Peor, for each man that followed after Baal Peor Yahweh your God destroyed from your midst. But you, the ones holding fast to Yahweh your God, are all alive today.

"See, I now teach you rules and regulations just as Yahweh my God has commanded me, to observe them just so in the midst of the land where you are going, to take possession of it. And you must observe them diligently, for that is your wisdom and your insight before the eyes of the people, who will hear all of these rules, and they will say, ‘Surely this great nation is a wise and discerning people.’ For what great nation has for it a god near to it as Yahweh our God, whenever we call upon him? And what other great nation has for it just rules and regulations just like this whole law that I am setting before you today?"

This verse is impossible to be as broad as you are attempting to apply it, not only do you not keep all the commandments of Moses as Moses wrote them but the Lord Jesus said "and I give you a New Commandment." This verse due to it's history has no proven application to the whole Scripture you recognize, and the Apostles themselves (according to you) contradict it by "adding oral tradition" in their interpretations of it.

2) The second quote plainly says "this book and the plagues in this book," it applies specifically to Revelation.

These are not "simple Scriptures" to prove anything but two verses butchered alive out of their context to suit yourself, now that I'd call adding to the Word of God, which one should not do and can not be done.
 

robert derrick

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Quoting two verses plainly out of context is a really bad and unbiblical argument.

1) The first is from Deuteronomy 4 where Moses says, "Now, Israel, listen to the rules and to the regulations that I am teaching you to do, in order that you may live and you may go in and you may take possession of the land that Yahweh, the God of your ancestors, is giving to you. You must not add to the word that I am commanding you, and you shall not take away from it in order to keep the commands of Yahweh your God that I am commanding you to observe. Your eyes have seen what Yahweh did with the case of Baal Peor, for each man that followed after Baal Peor Yahweh your God destroyed from your midst. But you, the ones holding fast to Yahweh your God, are all alive today.

"See, I now teach you rules and regulations just as Yahweh my God has commanded me, to observe them just so in the midst of the land where you are going, to take possession of it. And you must observe them diligently, for that is your wisdom and your insight before the eyes of the people, who will hear all of these rules, and they will say, ‘Surely this great nation is a wise and discerning people.’ For what great nation has for it a god near to it as Yahweh our God, whenever we call upon him? And what other great nation has for it just rules and regulations just like this whole law that I am setting before you today?"

This verse is impossible to be as broad as you are attempting to apply it, not only do you not keep all the commandments of Moses as Moses wrote them but the Lord Jesus said "and I give you a New Commandment." This verse due to it's history has no proven application to the whole Scripture you recognize, and the Apostles themselves (according to you) contradict it by "adding oral tradition" in their interpretations of it.

2) The second quote plainly says "this book and the plagues in this book," it applies specifically to Revelation.

These are not "simple Scriptures" to prove anything but two verses butchered alive out of their context to suit yourself, now that I'd call adding to the Word of God, which one should not do and can not be done.
1. God's name now is Jesus.

I don't read anymore Scripture of Jehovah nor Yahweh for names of God after His birth, when He was to be called Jesus: not at the time, nor now, nor in the Scriptures of the everlasting future.

2. These are not "simple Scriptures" to prove anything but two verses butchered alive out of their context to suit yourself.

These simple Scriptures are simple to anyone reading them simply as they are written.

In any case, you say there is no Scripture of God forbidding adding to and taking away from the Scriptures of God, and you are free to add and take away what you like, so long as it is not 'in Revelation'.

3. This verse is impossible to be as broad as you are attempting to apply it

With the full verse and the whole chapter it is not only possible to do so, but impossible not to do so, and still believe the Scripture.

4. not only do you not keep all the commandments of Moses as Moses wrote them but the Lord Jesus said "and I give you a New Commandment."

God commands us not to take away nor add to His Scriptures, but He certainly can and has done so, with each new Scripture He wrote following Deut 4.

5. The second quote plainly says "this book and the plagues in this book,"

For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

So, the Lamb's book of life and the holy city are confined only to the book of Revelation? Likewise the right to the tree of life and the call of the Spirit and the bride to come and drink of the living water freely?

What the warning proves, is that the plagues written in the book are not confined to that book only, nor any specific time.

6. it applies specifically to Revelation.

Your carnal-minded technic of dividing books from books and scripture from scripture fails to refute the teaching:

Since the last book of the Bible is in fact Revelation, then anything added to the Bible must be after Revelation was written, which is adding to Revelation.

In any case, Scripture is not separated from itself, which is the work of a carnal mind. The whole Book of Scripture is one Book, even as the law of God is one law.

We offend in one, we offend in all.

Conclusion:

Adding anything to the Bible that is not of the Bible is offending the Bible, and the God of the Bible.

And all adding would be after the Bible was fully written, which ends with Revelation, and so all adding is to the words of the prophecy of that book.

All the words of God's prophecy in Scripture began with 'In the beginning..." and ended with 'Amen".

And everywhere in between they are one unbroken chain of Scriptural truth. Breaking it by adding carnal links to the chain, or by carnally taking away links from the chain, is cursed of God, though called 'Sacred' by man.

I decked thee also with ornaments, and I put bracelets upon thy hands, and a chain on thy neck.
 
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Abaxvahl

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God's name now is Jesus.

A1) With the full verse and the whole chapter it is not only possible to do so, but impossible not to do so, and still believe the Scripture.
A2) What the warning proves, is that the plagues written in the book are not confined to that book only, nor any specific time.
A3) Since the last book of the Bible is in fact Revelation, then anything added to the Bible must be after Revelation was written, which is adding to Revelation.
A4) The whole Book of Scripture is one Book, even as the law of God is one law.

B1) In any case, you say there is no Scripture of God forbidding adding to and taking away from the Scriptures of God, and you are free to add and take away what you like, so long as it is not 'in Revelation'.

C1) These simple Scriptures are simple to anyone reading them simply as they are written.
C2) So, the Lamb's book of life and the holy city are confined only to the book of Revelation? Likewise the right to the tree of life and the call of the Spirit and the bride to come and drink of the living water freely?

The Trinity is not the Son, but either way it is moot because Yahweh is a name for the Godhead not a Person in it.

Prove A1-4 from Scripture and show me where I assert B1 because I assert the opposite.

As for C1 I read them simply although you manifestly exclude me from "anyone." As for C1, the answer is no, and that has nothing at all to do with the point.

Moreover, I took issue with your eisegesis not with the idea that God's Word can't be added to by man, as I said before, it is something that should not and can not be done because the Word stands forever but all else fades. Although I would take issue with saying God's Word is only Scripture because first of all He is a Person, secondly nowhere is the totality of this Person said to only be in Scripture, and thirdly God's authoritative speaking and instruction can be found outside of Scripture.
 

robert derrick

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The Trinity is not the Son, but either way it is moot because Yahweh is a name for the Godhead not a Person in it.

Prove A1-4 from Scripture and show me where I assert B1 because I assert the opposite.

As for C1 I read them simply although you manifestly exclude me from "anyone." As for C1, the answer is no, and that has nothing at all to do with the point.

Moreover, I took issue with your eisegesis not with the idea that God's Word can't be added to by man, as I said before, it is something that should not and can not be done because the Word stands forever but all else fades. Although I would take issue with saying God's Word is only Scripture because first of all He is a Person, secondly nowhere is the totality of this Person said to only be in Scripture, and thirdly God's authoritative speaking and instruction can be found outside of Scripture.

B1:Ok, I misunderstood. Especially since them that use Yaweh are usually very strict about Scripture, unlike the subject of this thread being them that insist other 'words' and traditions must be added to Scripture in order to get the 'full' doctrine of Christ.

I did not know Yaweh meant the Godhead. Thanks.

A1: I say it does, and you don't. We disagree. I have no problem teaching anyone based on those two Scriptures, that we are not to add nor take away anything from the Scripture: i.e. not to disregard any of it, nor add new 'Scripture' to it.

It's called wresting the Scriptures.

A3: simple fact of the Bible as written. You tried to limit not adding to the words of Revelation only, and the fact is that nothing can be added to the entire Bible, without adding it therefore to the last book of the Bible: Revelation.

Adding to the Scriptures at any time in history, would have necessarily occurred after the latest Scriptures were given by God to a prophet or apostle and was written as such.

A2: an interpretation of my own, that Revelation is not just a book of future prophecy, that supposedly has nothing to do with Christians from Ch 5-19, based upon 'pre-trib' doctrine. It is rather a book of Spiritual warfare through false ministry against first the saints of God and lastly with the Lamb Himself at His return in the air.

And so, wresting any of the Scriptures of the Bible, by taking away or adding to, will result in those plagues in spiritual manner in our own souls and lives. I don't say those plagues will not physically occur at one time prior to the end of the last days, but to not see their spiritual effect by ministerial error, is to fall short of the whole teaching of Scripture.

Afterall, we are promised a blessing if we read and understand and keep those things written therein. What things written in Scripture do we keep? Doctrine, rule, and commandments by ministry of the Spirit.

How can we do that, if more than half those things written in Revelation are 'not for us', because they don't pertain to us as Christians today:

Then saith he unto me, See thou do it not: for I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren the prophets, and of them which keep the sayings of this book.

A4: The law is one law, so that if we offend in any one point, we offend in all. (Lev 7:7)(James 2)

All the Scripture is written in one book. The word book in Scripture does not always apply to a certain book of the Bible:

Such as: the book of the Law, the book of Moses, the book of the kings of Israel and Judah: each of which included many 'books'.

Ezra opened the book of all that was written before and read from it and gave the sense of it, and all the Scriptures of the old covenant were written one book:

Then said I, Lo, I come: in the volume of the book it is written of me.

And then there is the book of the Lord, the book of the words of the Lord, the book of the prophets, the book in the right hand of Him that sat on the throne...

The point is: to limit a rule of God about not adding to the words of His book, to only the single 'little' book it is written in, is not a serious argument. Such a rule plainly would apply to all books of the Bible, which is the one book in the hand of the Lord: anything added to one book is added to all the book, and adding to any Scripture is adding to all Scripture.

And since you do agree with the conclusion anyway, then the 'eisegesis' argument isn't relevant, since the 'eisegesis' arrives at the correct conclusion. Which also is why I excluded you from anyone's simple reading of the simple Scripture, since you are the only one I have known to try and raise an 'eisegesis' argument about it, while agreeing with the conclusion from it. Which is also why I misunderstood your purpose.

the idea that God's Word can't be added to by man

Now that is an interesting statement. God's words cannot be added to by man, that God will accept as true. But His written words of Scripture certainly can and have been added to by man, which are the false teachings added to Scripture that destroy believers, and seduce them from the faith of Jesus only, Who's gospel and doctrine can only be preached according to the Scriptures.

Although I would take issue with saying God's Word is only Scripture because first of all He is a Person, secondly nowhere is the totality of this Person said to only be in Scripture

That's not what I am saying. If anything is taught for doctrine of God by writing or word of mouth, it must be confirmed by written Scripture as true. But in the Scriptures of His book is found written His one law, doctrine, and gospel: all the truth of the true and living God is summed up in the Scriptures, not all of God, because He is not His words, nor His written words. As you say, He is a Person.

and thirdly God's authoritative speaking and instruction can be found outside of Scripture.

And so clarify: do you mean giving the sense of what is distinctly written in Scripture, as Ezra did. Or do you mean things taught for doctrine of God with equal authority of Scripture, though not found written in nor proven as so by Scripture?

If you mean the former, then stating it as 'authoritative things outside of Scripture' is not a good way of putting it, because that is how they put it that believe in traditions outside of Scripture taught as equal to Scripture, which is heretical rubbish.
 

michaelvpardo

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Keeping looking for the true minister, because they are still here.

Division comes when 'Sacred' traditions of men are taught for doctrine of God.
There is only one legitimate teacher of scripture and He's known as the Holy Spirit, the Comforter, the Spirit of Christ, the Spirit of prophesy, the Spirit of adoption, the Witness, as the Teacher, and as God.
26 These things I have written to you concerning those who try to deceive you. 27 But the anointing which you have received from Him abides in you, and you do not need that anyone teach you; but as the same anointing teaches you concerning all things, and is true, and is not a lie, and just as it has taught you, you will abide in Him.
No born again Christian needs to be taught Cultic doctrine except to refute it with sound doctrine received by His Spirit.
9 Therefore God also has highly exalted Him and given Him the name which is above every name, 10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those in heaven, and of those on earth, and of those under the earth, 11 and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. Phillipians 2:9-11
 

robert derrick

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There is only one legitimate teacher of scripture and He's known as the Holy Spirit, the Comforter, the Spirit of Christ, the Spirit of prophesy, the Spirit of adoption, the Witness, as the Teacher, and as God.
26 These things I have written to you concerning those who try to deceive you. 27 But the anointing which you have received from Him abides in you, and you do not need that anyone teach you; but as the same anointing teaches you concerning all things, and is true, and is not a lie, and just as it has taught you, you will abide in Him.
No born again Christian needs to be taught Cultic doctrine except to refute it with sound doctrine received by His Spirit.
9 Therefore God also has highly exalted Him and given Him the name which is above every name, 10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those in heaven, and of those on earth, and of those under the earth, 11 and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. Phillipians 2:9-11
True. A 'true' minister is one who ministers the Spirit of God to preach His gospel according to the Scriptures.

Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.

We also don't have 'personal' pastors, as in one being 'my pastor'.

God's pastors are God's, that He sends as gifts to edify His body:

And I will give you pastors according to mine heart, which shall feed you with knowledge and understanding.

And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers.


Our Pastor is the bishop of our souls, Jesus. (1 Peter 2:25)
 
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Robert Gwin

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Of course God accepts right things done which come from what He has places in our hearts. But never mind my judgement as it is you that must become and remain pleasing to God. If we submit to Him, will He not direct us? Without Him, truly, we can do nothing.

Give God the glory!

Ye buddy, He promises to do so, how does He direct us today? Through the congregation Isa 2:2,3. Jesus assigned the faithful slave to care for the sheep during these last days until his return Mat 24:45
 
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amadeus

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Ye buddy, He promises to do so, how does He direct us today? Through the congregation Isa 2:2,3. Jesus assigned the faithful slave to care for the sheep during these last days until his return Mat 24:45
But do not forget also the importance of the Spirit of God!

"But the Comforter, which is the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you." John 14:26

"There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit." Rom 8:1
 

MatthewG

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What benefit does the Council of Nicea have in a persons life?

Is Christ himself not more beneficial?
 

Robert Gwin

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But do not forget also the importance of the Spirit of God!

"But the Comforter, which is the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you." John 14:26

"There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit." Rom 8:1

I fully agree sir, Jehovah's holy spirit has played in heavily from the beginning. What is the beginning (Jn 1:1) the start of creation. In fact, do you believe that each individual is alive because of holy spirit? I believe the breath of life, is one way Jehovah uses His ruach because of the words of Ps 146:4, do you believe that way too Amad?
 

amadeus

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I fully agree sir, Jehovah's holy spirit has played in heavily from the beginning. What is the beginning (Jn 1:1) the start of creation. In fact, do you believe that each individual is alive because of holy spirit? I believe the breath of life, is one way Jehovah uses His ruach because of the words of Ps 146:4, do you believe that way too Amad?
I believe that each person who is Alive to God is so because of the Holy Spirit of God. But... I also believe that there a lot of people walking around saying they are alive, but, to God, they are Not. What they have is Not the Life Jesus brought.

Even among those who really have received the Life which Jesus brought, I believe that too many [most?] are routinely quenching the Spirit and following the ways of their own dead heads instead of Jesus. The Life may be or have been there, but stifled and still will not they, those people, stagnate until they run out of time and hope?