The 'blessed virgin Mary'

[farouk]

Agreed, and where does The Word say anything about Mary saying " And I don't ever plan to know a man..." @robert derrick ?

My bible say's that "He (Joseph) knew her not TILL she gave birth to our savior" Pretty crystal clear.

@Nancy Indeed; there was nothing inappropriate about the consummation of their marriage after the birth of the Lord Jesus.

 

[Mungo]

For anyone who has wisdom....the story of Joseph and Mary...

There are three passages of Scripture that pertain specifically to the time of Joseph and Mary’s betrothal, the consummation of their marriage, and the birth of Jesus: Matthew 1:18-25; Luke 1:26-56; Luke 2:1-7. Each passage reveals something about their relationship as well as the cultural mores of that time.

In Bible times, Jewish marriage customs regarding a couple’s engagement were far different and much more stringent than those we are familiar with today, especially in the West. Marriages were arranged by the parents of the bride and groom and often without even consulting the couple to be married. A contract was prepared in which the groom’s parents paid a bride price. Such a contract was immediately deemed binding, with the couple considered married even though the actual ceremony and consummation of the marriage would not occur for as long as a year afterwards. The time between was a sort of testing of fidelity with the couple having little, if any, contact with each other.

It was during this betrothal period that the angel Gabriel visited Mary and told her of her impending pregnancy. It’s no small wonder that Mary was so inquisitive of the angel; she was still a virgin and would know no man sexually for several months, maybe as long as a year or more (Matthew 1:18; Luke 1:34).

Joseph soon became aware of Mary’s pregnancy, and this no doubt was cause for consternation on his part: “Because Joseph her husband was a righteous man and did not want to expose her to public disgrace, he had in mind to divorce her quietly” (Matthew 1:19). Jewish custom allowed that they be considered as husband and wife, though the marriage had not yet been consummated. The point is being made that Joseph and Mary had experienced no sexual contact with each other, as verse 18 “before they came together” points out. So, Joseph was in a quandary. Jewish law provided that his betrothed, because of her unfaithfulness, could be placed before the elders for judgment and stoned to death. But he was thinking to just put her away quietly without public knowledge. Betrothals or marriage engagements in those ancient times were binding and could only be terminated by an official divorce decree.

It was then that the angel appeared to Joseph in a dream (Matthew 1:20-25) and explained to him that all this was bringing about the fulfillment of prophecy that a virgin would bear a child who was to be the Savior (Isaiah 7:14), and “he [Joseph] did what the angel of the Lord had commanded him and took Mary home as his wife. But he had no union with her until she gave birth to a son. And he gave him the name Jesus.”

Luke 2:1-7 also confirms the idea that Joseph and Mary, though betrothed, were considered as husband and wife by Jewish customs even though the actual marriage ceremony had not been fully effectuated. So, Joseph and Mary were actually legally married before the birth of Jesus though their marriage was not consummated physically until after His birth.

Good up to a point.

Scripture does not say that Mary and Joseph consummated the marriage after the birth of Jesus. That is an unwarranted assumption from Mt 1:25

The Greek heos, translated as until or till do not imply that any action changed after that point in time, neither do the English until or till. This has been gone over many times on these forums but we can go over it all again if necessary.

 

[Mungo]

Agreed, and where does The Word say anything about Mary saying " And I don't ever plan to know a man..." @robert derrick ?

My bible say's that "He (Joseph) knew her not TILL she gave birth to our savior" Pretty crystal clear.

See my post above.

 

[Addy]

I have made it crystal clear that I believe that Mary and Joseph did NOT consummate their marriage until after Jesus was born... and
I would agree with Heart2Soul.. that it was probably many months after the Lord's birth.

 

[robert derrick]

For anyone who has wisdom....the story of Joseph and Mary...

There are three passages of Scripture that pertain specifically to the time of Joseph and Mary’s betrothal, the consummation of their marriage, and the birth of Jesus: Matthew 1:18-25; Luke 1:26-56; Luke 2:1-7. Each passage reveals something about their relationship as well as the cultural mores of that time.

In Bible times, Jewish marriage customs regarding a couple’s engagement were far different and much more stringent than those we are familiar with today, especially in the West. Marriages were arranged by the parents of the bride and groom and often without even consulting the couple to be married. A contract was prepared in which the groom’s parents paid a bride price. Such a contract was immediately deemed binding, with the couple considered married even though the actual ceremony and consummation of the marriage would not occur for as long as a year afterwards. The time between was a sort of testing of fidelity with the couple having little, if any, contact with each other.

It was during this betrothal period that the angel Gabriel visited Mary and told her of her impending pregnancy. It’s no small wonder that Mary was so inquisitive of the angel; she was still a virgin and would know no man sexually for several months, maybe as long as a year or more (Matthew 1:18; Luke 1:34).

Joseph soon became aware of Mary’s pregnancy, and this no doubt was cause for consternation on his part: “Because Joseph her husband was a righteous man and did not want to expose her to public disgrace, he had in mind to divorce her quietly” (Matthew 1:19). Jewish custom allowed that they be considered as husband and wife, though the marriage had not yet been consummated. The point is being made that Joseph and Mary had experienced no sexual contact with each other, as verse 18 “before they came together” points out. So, Joseph was in a quandary. Jewish law provided that his betrothed, because of her unfaithfulness, could be placed before the elders for judgment and stoned to death. But he was thinking to just put her away quietly without public knowledge. Betrothals or marriage engagements in those ancient times were binding and could only be terminated by an official divorce decree.

It was then that the angel appeared to Joseph in a dream (Matthew 1:20-25) and explained to him that all this was bringing about the fulfillment of prophecy that a virgin would bear a child who was to be the Savior (Isaiah 7:14), and “he [Joseph] did what the angel of the Lord had commanded him and took Mary home as his wife. But he had no union with her until she gave birth to a son. And he gave him the name Jesus.”

Luke 2:1-7 also confirms the idea that Joseph and Mary, though betrothed, were considered as husband and wife by Jewish customs even though the actual marriage ceremony had not been fully effectuated. So, Joseph and Mary were actually legally married before the birth of Jesus though their marriage was not consummated physically until after His birth.

I.e. and took unto him his wife: And knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn son.

One Scripture proves all.

 

[Nancy]

See my post above.

I did and replied to it. You still have not given a single answer. What do you think "till" means?

 

[Addy]

Scripture does not say that Mary and Joseph consummated the marriage after the birth of Jesus.

So are we to assume that all people who get married do NOT consummate their marriage vows??? The entire theory of perpetual virginity just doesn't hold up because there is no proof... theefaith keeps producing these long lists of people who believed in the perpetual virginity of Mary... that does NOT make it so.

Denying Mary the role of married wife is cruel. I'm not even talking about whether they had other children or not.

Why on earth would scripture state the marital activities of anyone?? Scripture states how a wife is to act.. and how a husband is to act toward his wife.

The Catholic church has idolized Mary and given her a position that is not biblical

 

[robert derrick]

Agreed, and where does The Word say anything about Mary saying " And I don't ever plan to know a man..." @robert derrick ?

My bible say's that "He (Joseph) knew her not TILL she gave birth to our savior" Pretty crystal clear.

I was quoting from someone claiming Joseph was an old past-prime widowed man with children from that marriage, who then wanted to make Mary his own lovely young housemate with the pretense of marriage.

And she consented, because she didn't really want to have sex with a man, but only to be supported for life to hang around and look good.

The problem is she had to agree to be sidled with a bunch of other kids in the process.

And when they were come into the house, they saw the young child with Mary his mother, and fell down, and worshipped him.

So, where are those kids of Joseph from his first marriage? Don't read of any going with them and returning from Egypt either.

 

[robert derrick]

So are we to assume that all people who get married do NOT consummate their marriage vows??? The entire theory of perpetual virginity just doesn't hold up because there is no proof... theefaith keeps producing these long lists of people who believed in the perpetual virginity of Mary... that does NOT make it so.

Denying Mary the role of married wife is cruel. I'm not even talking about whether they had other children or not.

Why on earth would scripture state the marital activities of anyone?? Scripture states how a wife is to act.. and how a husband is to act toward his wife.

The Catholic church has idolized Mary and given her a position that is not biblical

They also forbid their 'priests' and 'nuns' to marry.

We see where that's got them.

A devil's doctrine indeed.

 

[Mungo]

So are we to assume that all people who get married do NOT consummate their marriage vows??? The entire theory of perpetual virginity just doesn't hold up because there is no proof... theefaith keeps producing these long lists of people who believed in the perpetual virginity of Mary... that does NOT make it so.

Denying Mary the role of married wife is cruel. I'm not even talking about whether they had other children or not.

Addy, we are not talking about a normal marriage. This was unique. Mary was the only woman to conceive and give birth to God, She was prophesied back in Gen3:15.

In God’s plan of salvation he picked out certain people to have a special role. Noah, Abraham, Moses, David and others. God chose them, though they had to freely accept their role, and God gave them special graces to fulfil that role. Mary is another such person and we know she was given great grace. The angel Gabriel addressed her as “full of grace”. Yet Mary was given an even greater role that the others, the unique role of bearing the Son of God in her womb. She was chosen by the Father to bear His only begotten Son. In that exalted role, Mary is the first person in all history to receive and accept Christ as her Saviour.

 

[Mungo]

They also forbid their 'priests' and 'nuns' to marry.

We see where that's got them.

A devil's doctrine indeed.

Wrong again. You are so ignorant about Catholicism.

 

[robert derrick]

you still have the problem of the teaching authority of the apostles and their successors. And they have always taught mary is mother of God.

Neither the apostles taught that, nor them that continued in the apostles' doctrine of Christ.

Later founders of another religion made it up.

The teaching authority of the apostles is the Scriptures of the apostles.

No Scriptures, no authority of Christ. Only false doctrine.

 

[Mungo]

I did and replied to it. You still have not given a single answer. What do you think "till" means?

I was referring to the post #442
But here it is again
Scripture does not say that Mary and Joseph consummated the marriage after the birth of Jesus. That is an unwarranted assumption from Mt 1:25

The Greek heos, translated as until or till do not imply that any action changed after that point in time, neither do the English until or till. This has been gone over many times on these forums but we can go over it all again if necessary.

 

[robert derrick]

Wrong again. You are so ignorant about Catholicism.

Thankfully.

 

[robert derrick]

Addy, we are not talking about a normal marriage.

Now that's certainly true. Dystopian is a better word for it.

 

[Mungo]

Thankfully.

You are glad that you are ignorant about Catholicism and so tell lies about what it teaches?

 

[Heart2Soul]

I was quoting from someone claiming Joseph was an old past-prime widowed man with children from that marriage, who then wanted to make Mary his own lovely young housemate with the pretense of marriage.

And she consented, because she didn't really want to have sex with a man, but only to be supported for life to hang around and look good.

The problem is she had to agree to be sidled with a bunch of other kids in the process.

And when they were come into the house, they saw the young child with Mary his mother, and fell down, and worshipped him.

So, where are those kids of Joseph from his first marriage? Don't read of any going with them and returning from Egypt either.

The marriage was arranged by their parents...

 

[Mungo]

Addy, we are not talking about a normal marriage.

Now that's certainly true. Dystopian is a better word for it.

Dystopia
n noun an imaginary place or society in which everything is bad.
(Concise Oxford English Dictionary)
It doesn't describe the marriage of Mary and Joseph but it does describe your false understanding of the Catholic Church.

 

[Mungo]

The marriage was arranged by their parents...

Their marriage was arranged by God.

 

[robert derrick]

I was referring to the post #442
But here it is again
Scripture does not say that Mary and Joseph consummated the marriage after the birth of Jesus. That is an unwarranted assumption from Mt 1:25

The Greek heos, translated as until or till do not imply that any action changed after that point in time, neither do the English until or till. This has been gone over many times on these forums but we can go over it all again if necessary.

And here we go. Dive into the Greek, in order to redefine the word 'is'.

Until still means until. Until that point of time. There was no change until...then the change comes. 'Until' is never written, until there is a change.

Such people reject plain Scripture and refuse to acknowledge the truth, in order to continue to believe a lie: strong delusion.

Cultish ideologies must reject Scripture, change the normal meaning of things, and deny reality.