The first horseman of the Apocalypse

[Zao is life]

Well, maybe I wasn't being too clear myself then. No offense, as they say, "no skin off my nose". There comes the time to just say, here's the info, do with it what you will.

It was your statement about eisegesis. The fact is, I was pointing to the word usage in that post. And it exegesis to say, there is one use of the name Israel that is not the same as the other use of Israel. Not all are Israel who are Israel. This is on it's face two usages.

Now, what that may mean to you, or mean to me, it doesn't change the word usage.

Much love!

OK we will disagree nicely. It's not what I get when I read Paul's words. The context is Paul's lamentation regarding the Jews who have been broken off for their unbelief, which he starts off his discourse with. BUT I see through a murky mirror dimly too.

 

[Zao is life]

How do you see God's land promise to Abaham?

Genesis 15:12-18 KJV
12) And when the sun was going down, a deep sleep fell upon Abram; and, lo, an horror of great darkness fell upon him.
13) And he said unto Abram, Know of a surety that thy seed shall be a stranger in a land that is not theirs, and shall serve them; and they shall afflict them four hundred years;
14) And also that nation, whom they shall serve, will I judge: and afterward shall they come out with great substance.
15) And thou shalt go to thy fathers in peace; thou shalt be buried in a good old age.
16) But in the fourth generation they shall come hither again: for the iniquity of the Amorites is not yet full.
17) And it came to pass, that, when the sun went down, and it was dark, behold a smoking furnace, and a burning lamp that passed between those pieces.
18) In the same day the LORD made a covenant with Abram, saying, Unto thy seed have I given this land, from the river of Egypt unto the great river, the river Euphrates:

Much love!

I see it as Christ's inheritance. He is the seed of Abraham. He embodies Israel. Those in Christ are promised that they will share with Him in His inheritance.

@marks
Hosea 1
10 Yet the number of the children of Israel shall be as the sand of the sea, which cannot be measured nor numbered; and it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, All of you are not my people, there it shall be said unto them, All of you are the sons of the living God.
11 Then shall the children of Judah and the children of Israel be gathered together, and appoint themselves one head.

The rest of the sentence is a repeat of the prophesied exile which had already been spoken about when Israel was judged in the Valley of Jezreel (which is typical of the style of the prophets, to close with what they opened with):

"..and they shall come up out of the land: for great shall be the day of Jezreel."

 

[marks]

OK we will disagree nicely. It's not what I get when I read Paul's words. The context is Paul's lamentation regarding the Jews who have been broken off for their unbelief, which he starts off his discourse with. BUT I see through a murky mirror dimly too.

But that's just the point!

There is a part of Israel that was blinded. Branches were broken off. And when he addresses the question, why is not all of Israel saved? The first thing he does is address this idea of who we are talking about. Israel is faithful Israel, but indeed, only a remnant.

But what he does then is to explain that in fact there remains those of ethnic Israel, and God's promise is to them also, and when Jesus returns, all who remain alive of ethnic Israel will be saved.

This "two Israels" remains until Jesus' return. Israel remains a distinct people before God, unsaved Israel, so that they can and will be saved when Jesus returns.

And in fact it is their acceptance of Jesus, well,

Romans 11:15 KJV
For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?

Much love!

 

[marks]

I see it as Christ's inheritance. He is the seed of Abraham. He embodies Israel. Those in Christ are promised that they will share with Him in His inheritance.

In that land area?

Much love!

 

[marks]

Hosea 1
10 Yet the number of the children of Israel shall be as the sand of the sea, which cannot be measured nor numbered; and it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, All of you are not my people, there it shall be said unto them, All of you are the sons of the living God.
11 Then shall the children of Judah and the children of Israel be gathered together, and appoint themselves one head.

God disowned them, and promises to re-own them.

More to the point, God wed Israel, but then divorced her for her adultery. But He's promised to re-wed her. Her readiness is announced in Revelation 19, just before Jesus returns.

Much love!

 

[Zao is life]

But that's just the point!

There is a part of Israel that was blinded. Branches were broken off. And when he addresses the question, why is not all of Israel saved? The first thing he does is address this idea of who we are talking about. Israel is faithful Israel, but indeed, only a remnant.

But what he does then is to explain that in fact there remains those of ethnic Israel, and God's promise is to them also, and when Jesus returns, all who remain alive of ethnic Israel will be saved.

This "two Israels" remains until Jesus' return. Israel remains a distinct people before God, unsaved Israel, so that they can and will be saved when Jesus returns.

And in fact it is their acceptance of Jesus, well,

Romans 11:15 KJV
For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?

Much love!

I still don't believe you're correct about what Paul is saying in Romans 9.

That does not mean I have no hope of a reconciliation one day between those broken off and the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. The prophecy I quoted to you above is just one prophecy that suggests that there will be a restoration to land also. So let me just quote it again:

Hosea 1
10 Yet the number of the children of Israel shall be as the sand of the sea, which cannot be measured nor numbered; and it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, All of you are not my people, there it shall be said unto them, All of you are the sons of the living God.
11 Then shall the children of Judah and the children of Israel be gathered together, and appoint themselves one head.

The rest of the sentence is a repeat of the prophesied exile which had already been spoken about when Israel was judged in the Valley of Jezreel (which is typical of the style of the prophets, to close with what they opened with):

"..and they shall come up out of the land: for great shall be the day of Jezreel."

There are other prophecies which say the same thing, for example:

Ezekiel 37
16 Moreover, you son of man, take you one stick, and write upon it, For Judah, and for the children of Israel his companions: then take another stick, and write upon it, For Joseph, the stick of Ephraim and for all the house of Israel his companions:
17 And join them one to another into one stick; and they shall become one in yours hand.
18 And when the children of your people shall speak unto you, saying, Will you not show us what you mean by these?
19 Say unto them, Thus says the Lord GOD; Behold, I will take the stick of Joseph, which is in the hand of Ephraim, and the tribes of Israel his fellows, and will put them with him, even with the stick of Judah, and make them one stick, and they shall be one in mine hand.
20 And the sticks whereon you write shall be in yours hand before their eyes.
21 And say unto them, Thus says the Lord GOD; Behold, I will take the children of Israel from among the heathen, where they be gone, and will gather them on every side, and bring them into their own land:
22 And I will make them one nation in the land upon the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king to them all: and they shall be no more two nations, neither shall they be divided into two kingdoms any more at all.

There is also the Biblical type of Joseph, who once Judah had repented, finally revealed to his brothers who he was, and forgave them.

So..

I don't claim to know what is going to happen or to understand all Old Testament prophecy, but there is this hope, based on what the prophets wrote.

 

[Zao is life]

God disowned them, and promises to re-own them.

More to the point, God wed Israel, but then divorced her for her adultery. But He's promised to re-wed her. Her readiness is announced in Revelation 19, just before Jesus returns.

Much love!

Yes but you see only one Israel where you should see one Israel divided into the house of Judah and the house of Israel.

In Hosea the prophecy is to the 10 N tribes. In Ezekiel which I just quoted above God is saying that He is going to rejoin the 10 tribes of the house of Israel and the 2 tribes of the house of Judah and make them one nation again, and bring them all back into the land.

You must separate (because the Old Testament prophetic books separate) the house of Israel and the house of Judah, and not see them as one - because some prophecy in the Old Testament is referring only to the house of Israel and some only to the house of Judah and some to all Israel. You have to know who is being spoken to, when, and you have to have a knowledge and understanding of the historical background to the prophecy, no matter what O.T prophetic book you are reading.

 

[marks]

I don't claim to know what is going to happen or to understand all Old Testament prophecy, but there is this hope, based on what the prophets wrote.

One of my favorites remains in Jeremiah,

Jeremiah 31:35-37 KJV
35) Thus saith the LORD, which giveth the sun for a light by day, and the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night, which divideth the sea when the waves thereof roar; The LORD of hosts is his name:
36) If those ordinances depart from before me, saith the LORD, then the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before me for ever.
37) Thus saith the LORD; If heaven above can be measured, and the foundations of the earth searched out beneath, I will also cast off all the seed of Israel for all that they have done, saith the LORD.

Much love!

 

[Zao is life]

@marks

Just look at Hosea 1 for an example. God is telling the 10 N tribes only that He is not their people and He will no longer be their God.

God tells them that He will no longer have mercy on the house of Israel (the 10 N tribes), but He will still have mercy on the house of Judah. Take it to over 700 years later, and it's switched around. Read these prophecies in order from top to bottom now:

Hosea 1
6 And she conceived again, and bare a daughter. And God said unto him, Call her name Loruhamah: for I will no more have mercy upon the house of Israel; but I will utterly take them away.
7 But I will have mercy upon the house of Judah, and will save them by the LORD their God, and will not save them by bow, nor by sword, nor by battle, by horses, nor by horsemen.

Romans 9
22 What if God, willing to show his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had before prepared unto glory,
24 Even us, whom he has called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
25 As he says also in Hosea, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved.
26 And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, All of you are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God.

Romans 11
28 As concerning the gospel, they (the Jews i.e the house of Judah) are enemies for your sakes: but as concerning the election, they are beloved for the father's sakes.
29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.
30 For as all of you in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:
31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.
32 For God has concluded them all (Jews/the house of Judah and Gentiles/the new house of Israel) - in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

Paul is talking about the house of Israel and the house of Judah in Romans 9-11, and take note: he does not say that the Jews are saved for the father's sakes even in their unbelief, he says they are beloved for the father's sakes.

And yes - regardless of genetic ancestry, Paul has included Gentiles in the house of Israel @marks (he has not included Gentiles in the house of Judah - we do not become Jews). The vast majority of the 10 tribes were exiled and scattered and never returned, and their descendants intermarried with Gentiles. God views Gentiles who believe in Jesus as he house of Israel, regardless of our genetic ancestry.

 

[Zao is life]

One of my favorites remains in Jeremiah,

Jeremiah 31:35-37 KJV
35) Thus saith the LORD, which giveth the sun for a light by day, and the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night, which divideth the sea when the waves thereof roar; The LORD of hosts is his name:
36) If those ordinances depart from before me, saith the LORD, then the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before me for ever.
37) Thus saith the LORD; If heaven above can be measured, and the foundations of the earth searched out beneath, I will also cast off all the seed of Israel for all that they have done, saith the LORD.

Much love!

Yes but we must also be careful because "I will not cast off all the house of Israel" means He will save a remnant.

 

[marks]

You must separate (because the Old Testament prophetic books separate) the house of Israel and the house of Judah, and not see them as one - because some prophecy in the Old Testament is referring only to the house of Israel and some only to the house of Judah and some to all Israel.

I think taking these point by point.

For instance, Jeremiah was prophesying concerning Israel AFTER the northern kingdom was scattered. And he gave his prophecies specifically to the southern kingdom.

Of course, there were a couple of mass migrations from Israel to Judah, once after the golden calves were set up, and the other when Hezekiah, I think it was, kept Tabernacles, and sent runners through Israel to invite them, and many stayed when they saw the LORD was still worshiped there.

Much love!

 

[marks]

Just look at Hosea 1 for an example. God is telling the 10 N tribes only that He is not their people and He will no longer be their God.

God tells them that He will no longer have mercy on the house of Israel (the 10 N tribes), but He will still have mercy on the house of Judah.

I'm relooking at this. Admittedly Hosea isn't my strongest book.

1 Peter 2:9-10 KJV
9) But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:
10) Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy.

Much love!

 

[Zao is life]

But that's just the point!

There is a part of Israel that was blinded. Branches were broken off. And when he addresses the question, why is not all of Israel saved? The first thing he does is address this idea of who we are talking about. Israel is faithful Israel, but indeed, only a remnant.

But what he does then is to explain that in fact there remains those of ethnic Israel, and God's promise is to them also, and when Jesus returns, all who remain alive of ethnic Israel will be saved.

This "two Israels" remains until Jesus' return. Israel remains a distinct people before God, unsaved Israel, so that they can and will be saved when Jesus returns.

And in fact it is their acceptance of Jesus, well,

Romans 11:15 KJV
For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?

Much love!

"Life from the dead" = they are spiritually dead. Israel consists only of "sons of the living God". There's only one Israel in Christ. Paul did not say that in Christ there is both Jew and Gentile. He said there is neither Jew nor Gentile in Christ.

The only Israel is the Israel in Christ. There is no other Israel. So no, one Israel, two houses: the house of Israel, and the house of Judah, consisting only of those who believe in Jesus, who are one people in Christ.

 

[Zao is life]

I'm relooking at this. Admittedly Hosea isn't my strongest book.

1 Peter 2:9-10 KJV
9) But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:
10) Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy.

Much love!

That's not talking about Jews though. This is what I'm trying to explain to you. The word Jew is derived from the name of the tribe of Judah.

 

[marks]

Yes but we must also be careful because "I will not cast off all the house of Israel" means He will save a remnant.

Jeremiah 31:35-37 KJV
35) Thus saith the LORD, which giveth the sun for a light by day, and the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night, which divideth the sea when the waves thereof roar; The LORD of hosts is his name:
36) If those ordinances depart from before me, saith the LORD, then the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before me for ever.
37) Thus saith the LORD; If heaven above can be measured, and the foundations of the earth searched out beneath, I will also cast off all the seed of Israel for all that they have done, saith the LORD.

This is neither to "the house of Israel" or "the house of Judah", but was given to the southern kingdom after the northern kingdom was scattered, and concerns "Israel", as a nation, and it's anscestral members.

I maintain this "Israel" is the ethnic group of Israelites, the children of Jacob according to the flesh. That this was given to the nation, all 12 tribes, represented in those of the northern tribes who had moved south.

And yes, I agree, a remnent is what is promised.

 

[marks]

He said there is neither Jew nor Gentile in Christ.

Exactly!!!!

Yes!!!

:)

Now, what does that mean towards "all Israel saved"?

OK. Tautology. A fancy word for saying nothing.

"All Israel shall be saved".

If Israel = saved, "All saved shall be saved."

?

Much love!

 

[Zao is life]

Jeremiah 31:35-37 KJV
35) Thus saith the LORD, which giveth the sun for a light by day, and the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night, which divideth the sea when the waves thereof roar; The LORD of hosts is his name:
36) If those ordinances depart from before me, saith the LORD, then the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before me for ever.
37) Thus saith the LORD; If heaven above can be measured, and the foundations of the earth searched out beneath, I will also cast off all the seed of Israel for all that they have done, saith the LORD.

This is neither to "the house of Israel" or "the house of Judah", but was given to the southern kingdom after the northern kingdom was scattered, and concerns "Israel", as a nation, and it's anscestral members.

I maintain this "Israel" is the ethnic group of Israelites, the children of Jacob according to the flesh. That this was given to the nation, all 12 tribes, represented in those of the northern tribes who had moved south.

And yes, I agree, a remnent is what is promised.

Not so because it's said in the context of the promise of the New Covenant - which is promised to both the house of Israel and the house of Judah (Jeremiah 31:31).

 

[marks]

That's not talking about Jews though. This is what I'm trying to explain to you. The word Jew is derived from the name of the tribe of Judah.

And applied to far more than that.

It gained a much broader generic use by NT times.

Much love!

 

[Zao is life]

Exactly!!!!

Yes!!!

:)

Now, what does that mean towards "all Israel saved"?

OK. Tautology. A fancy word for saying nothing.

"All Israel shall be saved".

If Israel = saved, "All saved shall be saved."

?

Much love!

By "all Israel" Paul means both the house of Israel AND the house of Judah - but only those who are in Christ. No one else.

 

[marks]

Not so because it's said in the context of the promise of the New Covenant - which is promised to both the house of Israel and the house of Judah (Jeremiah 31:31).

OK, but aren't you saying it is the House of Israel that is cast out, and the House of Judah that is retained? But God promises to not cast out all the seed of . . . Israel.

Much love!