Sorry friend, that's blasphemous in my opinion to say men can refuse the Sovereign will of God, that just cant be supported by scripture.
The Myth of saying that Jesus Christ died for all men without exception !
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Gods own will is always supreme over mans will, He never honors a creatures will over His own. Please read Dan 4:35
35 And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing: and he doeth according to his will in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth: and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?
Eph 1:11
11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:
No, its true and your "opinion" isn't a standard to be met. Just the fact of what I posted is in fact scripture (2 Peter 3:9) coupled with the fact that there will be a judgement day and people going to the second death refutes your entire opinion factually from scripture.
God respecting their choice?
Read tell that to Cain and Abel (Rom. 9)
Tell that to Pharaoh when God hardened his heart!
Men cannot override the will or plan of God. And He does not cater his plan to the whims of each and every individual. His plan is to bring Himself ultimate glory- THAT was the true reason Christ died. The ultimate goal of Christ's death was not to save anyone. His goal was to bring His father glory; he did this through purchasing for himself a peculiar people. A church.
And yes he died for the sins of the world.... but it never says every person. And yes he died for all men (without racial distinction), but not for EVERY man.
jessiblue
Well-Known Member
When it comes down to it, Jesus died for the ungodly.
Romans 5:6: For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.
Romans 5:6: For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.
I would say that whatever that God allows is according to the counsel of His will.
The matter that He desires that none should perish and the truth that there will be even many that will in fact perish, only tells us that the former does not speak about God’s determined plan and purposes concerning His creating all things created.
1 Tim.2:4 must be understood and taken in context. To take the verse as to speak about man’s free will is an obvious misuse and error.
Tong
R4120
Again, its just very degrading to God in my opinion to say man can thwart the will of God!
Thats in reference to the elect, who by nature are ungodly sinners. Not only that, the ungodly Christ died for are saved by His life Rom 5:10
jessiblue
Well-Known Member
Yes. I believe that those who are not of the chosen elect can also become elect once they have been drawn by God to accept Jesus Christ as their Savior. Hope that makes sense. jb
Jesus revealed and said:
“No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day.”
Those whom the Father draws to the Son are the ones who can come to Christ, that is, believe in Him. It is not that the Father’s drawing is for them to choose to accept or reject Jesus. No. Rather, the Father’s drawing them to the Son, actually means nothing but that they were of the elect or chosen of God unto salvation. The Father gives them to the Son, to be raised by the Son on the last day.
Tong
R4121
jessiblue
Well-Known Member
Would you explain what it is you disagree with?
Let me try to put it down the way I understand it now. If a person has never desired to come to Christ, then he is not Elect and never will be. Why? ….because he was never chosen to begin with. If, on the other hand, a person, upon hearing the Good News, runs into the arms of Jesus, he most certainly is Elect because he has been drawn by the Father, and only the Elect are drawn by Him. Do I understand it correctly? jb
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From what you just responded yes. That is the basic idea of 'election', though if you read into covenant theology, you'll get a much clearer picture! I would suggest the book "The Call of Grace" by Norman Shepherd. Great little book, and wonderful introduction to covenant theology, and how it relates to evangelism.
jessiblue
Well-Known Member
I love reading about God’s glorious grace. Thank you for your kind response and book suggestion. jb
Absolutely!! I do love reading books about God and His mercy!
I feel like many people get so caught up in election and predestination (both of which are very vital doctrines) that they totally forget about covenant theology, which is THE vital heartbeat of any reformed (Calvinistic) Christian's doctrine!
I hope that you give the book a try, and I will certainly pray for you in your efforts to understand our wonderful God!
quietthinker
Well-Known Member
Love is vulnerable. If it is not, it is not love... it is something which masquerades as love.
God’s love allows us to be responsible even if it tears his heart out.
quietthinker
Well-Known Member
Men can refuse God’s will just as Satan refused God’s will. His recalcitrance resulted in loosing his place as the anointed Cherub; it will further result in his destruction.
It was God’s will that Adam and Eve not partake of the forbidden tree yet they refused his direction and were responsible for their choice. Does that make us greater than God....I doubt it.
quietthinker
Well-Known Member
You do not understand the immensity of the sacrifice ie, the condescension of the incarnation.
Instead, you superimpose a human view of power with its supreme self interest onto God.
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