tomwebster
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Neon,
He also has "a name written, that no man knew, but he himself. (Rev 19:12b)" Do you know what it is?
Who Is Jesus?
- Thread starter Neon
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Neon,
He also has "a name written, that no man knew, but he himself. (Rev 19:12b)" Do you know what it is?
So here's something that I'd like to hear a scriptural answer on....
Everyone seems to love these Isaiah verses: 9:6 For to us a Child is born, to us a Son is given; and the government shall be on His shoulder; and His name shall be called Wonderful, Counselor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
Isa 9:7 There is no end of the increase of His government and peace on the throne of David, and on His kingdom, to order it and to establish it with judgment and with justice from now on, even forever. The zeal of Jehovah of Hosts will do this.
Why does the tense change? "IS" born; "IS" given, changes to "SHALL BE", SHALL BE", changes back to "IS no", changes back to "TO order", "TO establish", then states ""FROM now on, EVEN FOREVER", then states "WILL do".
Why on earth does the tense keep changing? What does it teach?
Thanks.
Everyone seems to love these Isaiah verses: 9:6 For to us a Child is born, to us a Son is given; and the government shall be on His shoulder; and His name shall be called Wonderful, Counselor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
Isa 9:7 There is no end of the increase of His government and peace on the throne of David, and on His kingdom, to order it and to establish it with judgment and with justice from now on, even forever. The zeal of Jehovah of Hosts will do this.
Why does the tense change? "IS" born; "IS" given, changes to "SHALL BE", SHALL BE", changes back to "IS no", changes back to "TO order", "TO establish", then states ""FROM now on, EVEN FOREVER", then states "WILL do".
Why on earth does the tense keep changing? What does it teach?
Thanks.
God did indeed create us as flesh, for Genesis 2:7 says: "And Jehovah God proceeded to form the man out of dust from the ground and to blow into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man came to be a living soul." However, what is it that empowers us to live and when taken away, causes us to die ? What is the "breath of life" that God blew into Adam's nostrils ? Psalms 104:29 says: "If you take away their spirit, they expire, and back to their dust they go." What is the spirit here at Psalms 104, that Jesus himself had, but left him, thereby causing his death ?(Matt 27:50) Please explain.
The gaining of immortality does not indicate that something lives on after death, but rather that a person who has been chosen by God for the "heavenly calling"(Heb 3:1) and has remained loyal to death, is "changed" from a mortal flesh and blood person upon death to an immortal spirit person, and is not something they possess, but a transformation occurs, "in the twinkling of an eye".(1 Cor 15:51-53) Even the angels do not have immortality, but will eventually die if separated from the Creator, Jehovah God.
Your grasp of the Bible and it's associated meanings of words and expressions is no different than the Pharisees who firmly believed in the immortality of the soul. These also believed in predestination, holding that Adam and Eve were predestined to sin and that even a minor cut on the finger was preordained. Hence, these believed in Fate, though the Bible does not teach this false doctrine, but shows that everyone is a free-moral agent.(Deut 30:19, 20)
It's that way so as to rightly divide the timeline of Scripture.
"For to us a Child is born, to us a Son is given" - Christ's first coming to die on the cross.
"and the government shall be upon His shoulder" - Christ's second coming to rule with a rod of iron.
The 7th verse is about David's throne already being established and then Christ's inheritance of David's throne.
One can find many Bible verses that do not cover the detail like Paul did in 2 Cor.5 of what happens at flesh death. There are even some OT verses that speak specifically about the Rephaim (giants) in the abosolute 'dead' sense that they do not resurrect at all (Bullinger has an Appendix just on those cases in The Companion Bible). When all the various Bible examples are put together as a whole, it reveals that we are made up of flesh, spirit, and soul, and death of the flesh in no way ends our continued existence. Even when Christ Jesus upon the cross promised the malefactor crucified with Him, that he would be with Him that day in Paradise, that is a direct statement of revelation that part of our being continues even after flesh death.
That doesn't change what Paul also said in 2 Cor.5, that if our earthly tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. Nor does it change how Christ gave the story of the Lazarus and the rich man in Luke 16. He would not have given those events in Luke 16 showing what happens after the flesh body dies if it were not so. Likewise with the one caught up in 2 Cor.12, that event reveals a difference between our spirit and our flesh. In 1 Cor.15, Paul revealed how the soul is connected with our spirit when He preached about the resurrection of the dead.
Luke 12:4-5
4 And I say unto you my friends, Be not afraid of them that kill the body, and after that have no more that they can do.
5 But I will forewarn you Whom ye shall fear: Fear Him, Which after He hath killed hath power to cast into hell; yea, I say unto you, Fear Him.
(KJV)
Even most of the blind Pharisees accepted the doctrine of the resurrection. The Sadduccees did not period. But the majority of both refused Jesus of Nazareth as The Christ, Messiah, to their own destruction, even as it is still with many of them today.
The Greek word here is mo‧no‧ge‧nes′ and both the Thayer’s Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament, 1889, p. 417 & Liddell and Scott’s Greek-English Lexicon, Oxford, 1968, p. 1144 say that it means “single of its kind, only,” or “the only member of a kin or kind.”
In the bible it is used to describe the relation of both sons and daughters to their parents.
Jesus is described as the “only-begotten Son” whom his Father sent “into the world.” at 1Jo 4:9. We know God has many angelic sons, but John 3:18 also says Jesus is the only begotten son of God. No other angel is an only begotten.
The only thing this could possibly mean is that Jesus is one of a kind in relation to God. The Apostle Paul sheds some light on this in Colossians 1:15 "He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation; 16 because by means of him all [other] things were created in the heavens and upon the earth, the things visible and the things invisible, no matter whether they are thrones or lordships or governments or authorities. All [other] things have been created through him and for him."
Notice how Paul says 'all others were created by means of Jesus'.... this means that Jesus is Gods first and only 'direct' creation. All other things have come into existence through Jesus. That is why Jesus is the 'only begotten' of God. Jesus is the only one who God directly created in the same way that a son or daughter may be the only child of their parents.
Hebrews declares Jesus was made a little lower than the angels for... the suffering of death...
Heb 2:9
9 But we see Jesus, Who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that He by the grace of God should taste death for every man.
(KJV)
So just what was made lower than the angels for the suffering of death? ANS: His flesh.
And it was His flesh role as God The Saviour where the only begotten idea comes from, not some false idea that Christ Immanuel God with us was created.
This is why the Jews wanted to kill Jesus, because Jesus Christ proclaimed Himself as God, even using the sacred name "I AM" at the end of John 8.
My personal belief is this: God is Light — Christ Jesus, the Son of God, is the Light of the world.
It's like: my dad owns the corporation — I am the manager of all the companies within the corporation.
Blessings
When God told Adam, "as for the tree of the knowledge of good and bad you must not eat from it, for in the day you eat from it you will positively die"("positively die", Hebrew, mohth ta·muth´; Gen 2:17), did Adam really die or is he alive somewhere ? When God told Adam that he will "positively die" if he disobeyed, did Jehovah God really mean it ? Genesis 5:5 says: "So all the days of Adam that he lived amounted to nine hundred and thirty years and he died." Jesus was Adam's equal, being perfect, and thus had to die, and not just the "flesh", in order to provide the ransom. Otherwise, the ransom that you and I need is null and void.
The apostle Paul, at 2 Corinthians 5, speaks of an "earthly house, this tent....(being) dissolved" upon death.(2 Cor 5:1) Yes, "dissolved", or non-existent. If something is "dissolved", what remains ? If there is something that lives on after death, then the word resurrection does not apply, for it means a ' standing up again in life'.("resurrection", Greek a·na´sta·sis) A person that has not died is not resurrected or they must die in order to be resurrected.
The apostle Peter said of Jesus to the Jews: "God raised him up from the dead, of which fact we are witnesses."(Acts 3:15) Later, Peter and John "were teaching the people and were plainly declaring the resurrection from the dead in the case of Jesus."Acts 4:2) If Jesus did not die, as you say only the flesh, then what was resurrected ? You obviously disagree with Peter and God, who inspired Luke to record the book of Acts !
When Lazarus died, what then lived on; what did Jesus resurrect ?(John 11) It is apparent that you cannot understand the meaning of the words "dissolved", at 2 Corinthians 5:1 and "changed" at 1 Corinthians 15:51. And of Luke 16:19-31, if you had read more closely, you would have recognized that Jesus was speaking to the wicked Pharisees by means of an illustration, of their being "money lovers" and feeding the Lazarus class or common people only spiritual "crumbs".(Luke 16:14) But, you are like so many who never consider the context, nor try to harmonize the Bible.
Show me where Paul "connected the soul with the spirit" at 1 Corinthians 15, though these words are interconnected in the Bible, for life cannot exist one without the other. Luke 12 provides nothing to support your claim that only Jesus "flesh" died and not his "spirit", for again you show your inability to grasp what the word spirit (Hebrew ru´ach, Greek pneu´ma) really means. I am not surprised, for the churches have been teaching distortions and lies of the Bible, since almost immediately following the death of the apostle John in about 100 C.E., when apostasy began to grow.(Matt 13:24-30)
You never explained what the "breath of life" is at Genesis 2:7, so that Adam now became an animated or living creature. I am still waiting.
Jesus/God in the OT:
Jeremiah 17:10 (ESV)
[sup]10 [/sup]“I the Lord search the heart and test the mind, to give every man according to his ways, according to the fruit of his deeds.”
Jeremiah 17:10 (ESV)
[sup]10 [/sup]“I the Lord search the heart and test the mind, to give every man according to his ways, according to the fruit of his deeds.”
Hi Veteran,
I cant say I agree that Jesus claimed to be God. In fact he said "Do you want to kill me because I said I am Gods Son?"
But with regard to the 'I Am' verse in John 8, its true that many translations use the expression “I Am” at both John 8:58 and Exodus 3:14 where God identifies himself as the 'I Am'. But the evidence is that these two incidences do not express the same thought.
At Exodus 3:14 the Greek Septuagint Version reads, e‧go′ ei‧mi′ ho Ohn′, it literally means “I am the Being.”
But at John 8:58 the expression is clearly different. It simply reads e‧go′ ei‧mi′ So Jesus was not using an expression of identity as it is in Exodus. Jesus was speaking about himself in relation to Abraham’s past. He was saying that he was historically present when Abraham existed. Numerous translators indicate this in their renderings. For example, An American Translation reads: “I existed before Abraham was born!”
Paul was talking about our flesh body with the earthly house, that if it is dissolved. But what was he talking about when he said "we have a building of God" in the present tense? He called it the "spiritual body", the "image of the heavenly" in 1 Cor.15. Even in 1 Thess.4 he taught the saints alive on earth will no way precede the alseep saints to Heaven that have already died. That along with what Jesus said to the malefactor crucified with him, and it is about life after flesh death, with the only possible death remaining for some, is the second death. Is the "second death" about flesh death again? No. It's about death of one's "spiritual body" and soul in the "lake of fire".
Strange how you try to use those Scriptures while totally forgetting this one...
1 Pet 3:18-20
18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
19 By which also He went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
(KJV)
So what kind of body did Christ have when He went to preach to the spirits in prison? I very much believe that Jesus died on the cross, but His Spirit did not die, nor could It ever die. If the devil really thought he could kill God's Spirit, then he failed terribly. Just what was it that Christ commend to The Father upon death of His flesh body on the cross?
Yeah, I've heard that made up story for the blind Pharisees bit before. That's only a ploy to try and counter what Christ showed that happens after death of the flesh body per Luke 16. The 2 Cor.5 Scripture agrees perfectly, as does Eccl.12:5-7, as does 1 Cor.15 also, as does what Jesus said to the malefactor that believed on Him, etc. You simply refuse to believe it, which is your choice.
It's really simple. Christ Jesus IS Immanuel, which means 'with us is God'. That means HE existed BEFORE His coming in the flesh. Isaiah also called Christ "the everlasting Father". So how is it that you believe God's Spirit could ever die? The reason you would want to prove that God died, 'literally', is to show your lack of understanding about Jesus being God The Son, The Christ. What did Jesus say about His Spirit while hanging upon the cross just before His flesh died, anyway?
Whoever wrote this must have been confused about the 'soul' not being the same part as the "joints and marrow"...
Heb 4:12
12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
(KJV)
Paul too must have been confused also?
1Thes 5:23
23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
(KJV)
How is it this refers to 'souls' that had died and were in the heavenly without flesh bodies? How can that refer to a 'soul' without a flesh body?
Rev 20:4
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
(KJV)
And another one...
Rev 6:9
9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
(KJV)
This ain't lookin' good for your soul = flesh idea.
1 Cor 15:45
45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
(KJV)
Did you know all those Scriptures about that word "soul" is the Greek word psuche, meaning 'breath'? And that word "spirit" is Greek pneuma which can mean 'a current of air, breath or a breeze' and is also defined as 'soul' by some Bible scholars? I mean, there's general disagreement even between Bible scholars on how to define the idea of the 'soul'. Your somewhat claim of ascendency to Hebrew ru'ach simply isn't enough.
Don't you recall how God Himself referred to Hebrew nephesh (breathing creature) about His Own Soul?
Lev 26:30
30 And I will destroy your high places, and cut down your images, and cast your carcases upon the carcases of your idols, and My soul shall abhor you.
(KJV)
I don't see anywhere in the OP where he defined anything, but that he admitted confusion about Who Jesus is.
At 2 Corinthians 5:1, the apostle Paul said literally that "we are having" (Greek ekhomen, present tense) "a building from God" and is accurately rendered as "if....this tent should be dissolved, we are to have a building from God, a house not made with hands, everlasting in heaven." Hence, Paul was placing the "building from God" or spiritual body, in the future, only after the death of one's fleshly body. He now says that "in this dwelling house we do indeed groan, earnestly desiring to put on the one for us from heaven."(2 Cor 5:2)
The "tent" or person himself as a fleshly being, was "dissolved" or disappeared". (Encarta Dictionary) Thus, there is nothing that lives on after death, but there is a transformation or "change" into a spirit by God's power (1 Cor 15:51) for those who have proven loyal till death that were selected by God as "kings and priests"(Rev 1:6) by anointing them with holy spirit.(Rom 8:15, 16) The word spirit can mean, depending upon context, our life-force that allows us to be animated and live (Matt 27:50; Luke 8:55), as well as an invisible person living in the heavenly realm.(1 Kings 22:21)
Paul further said that upon death, a person who received the "heavenly calling" (Heb 3:1) and remained loyal, was to "put on (Greek ependuomai, meaning to "slip on") the one (spiritual body) for us from heaven."(2 Cor 5:2) If a person puts on a piece of clothing, they obviously were not wearing it. Therefore, this "change" from a fleshly body to a spiritual body upon death requires that the person has died, completely, and not just the "flesh". Otherwise, he or she does not "put on" a spiritual body if something lived on, but would rather just be a continuation of the person, not a change. If this were the case that something lives on after death, then a person in reality has not died and therefore the word death should not be in any language.
If there is something that lives on after death, then what of David, whom Peter told the Jews, that "actually David did not ascend to the heavens" ?(Acts 2:34) Where is he since his death ? Did he really die ? Isaiah 42:5 uses both "breath" and "spirit" as parallelism, saying: "This is what the [true] God, Jehovah, has said, the Creator of the heavens and the Grand One stretching them out; the One laying out the earth and its produce, the One giving breath to the people on it, and spirit to those walking in it:" Why the parallel between "breath" and "spirit" ? What happens when a person stops breathing ? And how does this tie in with the "breath of life" at Genesis 2:7 ?
You used 1 Peter 3:18 to try to prove your point, but if you had looked more carefully, it can readily be seen that Jesus died as a man of "flesh", but was now "made alive in the spirit". Hence, Jesus did not have a spirit body within him, but was "made alive" as a spirit "son of God" after being non-existent in the grave for a period of some three days.(Acts 10:40) When something is made, it did not exist before it's being created. Jesus was resurrected as a "life-giving spirit".(1 Cor 15:45, "life-giving spirit", Greek zoopoieo pneuma) He did not possess a "life-giving spirit."
And of the name Immanuel, who was "the boy" at Isaiah 7:14-16, some 800 years before Jesus came to the earth ? By the way, please do not dismiss this question. Also who was Ithiel at Nehemiah 11:7, whose name means "With me is God" ? Was God literally with him ?
At 1 Thessalonians 5:23, the apostle Paul was not referring to heaven at all, but of the need now for the Thessalonian brothers to be "blameless....at the presence of our Lord Jesus Christ" while still on the earth, for it says that "May the very God of peace sanctify you completely. And sound in every respect may the spirit and soul and body of you [brothers] be preserved in a blameless manner at the presence of our Lord Jesus Christ." Had they failed to remain "blameless" to the "presence of ...Jesus Christ ", then the hope of a "heavenly calling" would have been revoked.(2 Thess 1:5)
In addition, you are now incorporating the word "soul" instead of "spirit". What gives ? They are not the same, but you are putting them together as if they are. You are the one that is confused, which is also so true of the churches. Furthermore, the Greek word pneu´ma is never rendered as soul. Rather, if you had done "your homework", you would have seen that the Greek word psy·khe´ is properly rendered as "soul". Using the King James Bible will further cause confusion, for it has numerous inaccuracies, with an an estimated 50,000 errors.(compare 1 Cor 10:24, 25; Gen 13:1)
Paul was speaking in the present tense, not future tense of 'will have', which is how you're trying to change it to. When Paul said that 'we' groan desiring to be clothed with our house from heaven, that is ONLY in the sense when the flesh body has not died. I know the dead in the ground doctrine you've accepted is making you want the Scripture to mean something else, but the 2 Cor.5 example of what happens after flesh death is not the only Bible witness.
The Greek for "were dissolved" is kataluo, which simply means destroyed. And Paul used that only in reference to the flesh body, not what is INSIDE the flesh body. Eccl.12:5-7 revealed operation of a "silver cord" that is loosed at flesh death, with the flesh body going back to the earth where it came from, and the spirit going back to God Who gave it. In Genesis God said Adam was also flesh, meaning Adam was made up of something else than just flesh.
I've already shown how Hebrew 'nephesh' was rendered for God's Own Soul in Leviticus 26:11, even though 'nephesh' is also used for the idea of animate spirit of animals (like Gen.1:20 with "creature"). That means you can't narrow the word 'spirit' down to mean just something that animates flesh.
Your analogy doesn't fit what you're claiming. Because what did Paul preach about those in Christ being "a new creature"?
2 Cor 5:17
17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.
(KJV)
I mean, understanding that we have a 'spirit' part of our being separate from our flesh body is rudimentary Bible doctrine...
John 3:6
6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
(KJV)
Only spirit can be born of The Spirit. The flesh and spirit are two separate manifestations and operations. Did Jesus say, "that which is born of the Spirit is flesh"? God forbid, no. But that's exactly the junk you're preaching.
Yeah David really died; his flesh died. Paul was quoting David about Christ's Ascension to the right hand of God's Throne. That's where he was speaking of that David did not go. It was about God's Heavenly Throne vs. David's earthly throne. Or don't you recall per Acts 1 how Christ ascended to Heaven from the Mount of Olives in full view of some of His disciples? David didn't do that, and that's the gist of it. That is not proof that David's soul or spirit (whichever you prefer) is in the tomb where his flesh body perished back to the earthly elements.
I've already covered your questions about the 'breath of life' from God, and how Paul connected it with Greek psuche (breath) in 1 Cor.15:45, rendered as "soul" in the KJV Bible. The Biblical principle of the 'breath of life' involves more than a simple idea of oxygen that animates a flesh body.
Our resurrection is not exactly like Christ's, for His flesh body was transfigured to the Heavenly resurrection body, even to include the marks of His crucifixion.
Jesus Christ is ETERNAL, without beginning and without end. So what kind of body did He have BEFORE He was born in the flesh through Mary's womb? You probably won't admit that He ever existed PRIOR to coming in the flesh, because that's the heart of the false dead in the ground doctrine, it's even against the idea that Jesus Christ is not Immanuel like Isaiah said. That's even why you would make the mistake of not capitalizing "son" in your "son of God" phrase. Jesus is The Son of God, not the 'son of God'. Those in Christ Jesus are 'sons of God', meaning His children. Big difference.
Now that's a crazy twist. Immanuel from the Hebrew means 'with us is God'. Big difference with Ithiel ('God is with me'). Thank you for denying that Christ Jesus is "Immanuel" (God with us). It makes it a lot easier for my Christian brethren to really see which side of the fence you rest upon as a denier that Jesus Christ is God. I hope they also begin to see what group the 'dead in the ground' theories originate from too, and how their real purpose is in denying that Jesus Christ is God come in the flesh.
Don't be silly, Paul said 3 different words there: "spirit" (pneuma), "soul" (psuche), and "body" (soma). That's about our makeup of how God created us. If we were flesh only, like the falseness you're trying to preach, then he should have only said 'soma' (body), and left the other two words out. He didn't though, as those three things agree with the rest of God's Word too.
How would you know what's the same with those words spirit and soul? You only care about flesh and blood, and think that's what is going to be resurrected!!
1 Cor 15:50
50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
(KJV)
Now this is one doctrine that really won't matter what you believe. If your flesh dies prior to the "last trump", then you will automatically know how it is that the spirit God put inside your flesh is raised right then. Your id is with that spirit part, and that's your soul that will continue to God's Paradise. Did you forget what Jesus told the malefactor about being with Him in Paradise that day too? The real question is though, just which SIDE in Paradise will you be on? Hopefully, if you accept Jesus Christ as your Saviour, and as The SON of God, as Immanuel God with us, then you'll be on the proper side of the great gulf.
Veteran,
Please answer these questions: Where are all those righteous ones that have died before Jesus came to the earth ? Why did Job say: "O that in She´ol you would conceal me, that you would keep me secret until your anger turns back, that you would set a time limit for me and remember me! If an able-bodied man dies can he live again? All the days of my compulsory service I shall wait, until my relief comes" ?(Job 14:13, 14) Why did Job ask that he be remembered after a set "time limit" and that he had to wait on this "time limit" as a "compulsory service" ? If something lived on, then explain why Job had to "wait" to come back to life again; why was Job compelled to stay in the grave ?
In addition, why did Jesus use the expression "memorial tombs" (Greek mne·mei´on) at John 5:28, 29, in which these ones had to remain there until the appointed time for their resurrection, if something lives on after death ? Why is the resurrection of billions of mankind to occur during Jesus Millennial reign if something lives after death ?(Rev 20:6)
Please answer these questions: Where are all those righteous ones that have died before Jesus came to the earth ? Why did Job say: "O that in She´ol you would conceal me, that you would keep me secret until your anger turns back, that you would set a time limit for me and remember me! If an able-bodied man dies can he live again? All the days of my compulsory service I shall wait, until my relief comes" ?(Job 14:13, 14) Why did Job ask that he be remembered after a set "time limit" and that he had to wait on this "time limit" as a "compulsory service" ? If something lived on, then explain why Job had to "wait" to come back to life again; why was Job compelled to stay in the grave ?
In addition, why did Jesus use the expression "memorial tombs" (Greek mne·mei´on) at John 5:28, 29, in which these ones had to remain there until the appointed time for their resurrection, if something lives on after death ? Why is the resurrection of billions of mankind to occur during Jesus Millennial reign if something lives after death ?(Rev 20:6)
Hmmm, Jesus is "ETERNAL" according to your assertion. Yet, Jesus himself said that he was "the beginning of the creation by God".(Rev 3:14) The apostle Paul wrote to the Colossians, that Jesus is "the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation."(Col 1:15) Whom should I accept, your assertion or what Jesus and Paul said, as inspired by God's holy spirit ? It's obvious that you are so very biased, without regard for what the Bible really teaches. This is no different than when Stephen showed the religious leaders their blood guilt with regard to Jesus, and rather than accepting that what he said was true, they sought then and there to stone him to silence him.(Acts 7:57-60)
New International Version (©1984)
"To the angel of the church in Laodicea write: These are the words of the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the ruler of God's creation.
International Standard Version (©2008)
"To the messenger of the church in Laodicea, write: 'The Amen, the witness who is faithful and true, the originator of God's creation, says this:
World English Bible
"To the angel of the assembly in Laodicea write: "The Amen, the Faithful and True Witness, the Head of God's creation, says these things:
Revelation 3:14 (AMP)
[sup]14 [/sup] And to the angel (messenger) of the assembly (church) in Laodicea write: These are the words of the Amen, the trusty and faithful and true Witness, the Origin and Beginning and Author of God’s creation:
Revelation 3:14 (BBE)
[sup]14 [/sup] And to the angel of the church in Laodicea say: These things says the true and certain witness, the head of God's new order:
Revelation 3:14 (GW)
[sup]14 [/sup] “To the messenger of the church in Laodicea, write: The amen, the witness who is faithful and true, the source of God's creation, says:
Revelation 3:14 (NRSV)
[sup]14 [/sup] "And to the angel of the church in Laodicea write: The words of the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the origin of God's creation:
Revelation 3:14 (YLT)
[sup]14 [/sup] `And to the messenger of the assembly of the Laodiceans write: These things saith the Amen, the witness--the faithful and true--the chief of the creation of God;
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