Once Saved Always Saved

[Tong2020]

Sola scriptura ("by scripture alone" in English) is a theological doctrine held by some Protestant Christian denominations that posits the Christian scriptures as the sole infallible source of authority for Christian faith and practice.

So you ask what does sola scriptura have to do with your post?

Your term "genuine Christian" does not occur in the scriptures. Now on a forum such as this that strongly lean toward fundamentalisms...ie a strict theological methodology to sola scriptura only. You term is irrelevant.

Still your personal terms are personal, that is ok. But in a conversation if you are going to use personal terms you have to define your personal terms. So then your statement...Perhaps it would be helpful to list here what scriptures says of the genuine Christian...Is not applicable because the term "genuine Christian" does not appear in the scriptures so the scriptures cannot define your idea of what a genuine Christian is. Now if you rephrase that to...The following list defines what I believe is a genuine Christian....That is fine and we can continue the discussion from there.

So as far as your list of 33 items that you believe describes the beliefs of "genuine Christians" I would say I agree with some of them and disagree with some of them.

Actually I am referring to Christians and the “genuine” is just an adjective I use to describe them who i am referring to. That is not a personal term even. I could use the adjective “true” instead of “genuine” of you prefer that.

So you are actually having an issue with the term “genuine Christian”? Well, no problem. What adjective do you suggest is acceptable to you? But to make even easier, how would you like me to refer to one with a genuine faith in God and in Jesus Christ? Perhaps “the elect”? Or the “not false brethren”? Or “children of God”? Or “the sheep”? Or the “body of Christ”? Or simply “the Christians”? You can choose any of that where you don’t any issue with. It would be fine with me. At least you and the readers know whom I am referring to.

<<<So as far as your list of 33 items that you believe describes the beliefs of "genuine Christians" I would say I agree with some of them and disagree with some of them.>>>

Please be kind enough to list the numbers in the list which you agree with and the numbers which you disagree. Thanks.

Tong
R2919

 

[Corlove13]

Sorry folks, I can't go along with this! I know it's a huge argument but the scripture makes it clear that man can lose his salvation through unbelief, that is, no longer believing in Christ for whatever reason and just walking away from Him.

This is what blasphemy of the Holy Spirit is all about, as we shall see from scripture! The Holy Spirit is humiliated by dwelling in a person who now rejects Christ!

There were some who had accepted Christ as their Saviour but now have gone back to temple worship (Judaism) and renounced Christ. This is what is happening in Hebrews 6.

But before we go there, I would like to say that OSAS came from the Calvinist teaching that the chosen of God cannot resist His grace. They cannot resist receiving it or resist losing it. Therefore they cannot lose their salvation. I intend to prove this is not biblical!

Hebrews 6:4-6

"For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,

And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame."

As we see here, they were "made partakers of the Holy Spirit" and fell away, in this case, going back to temple worship, thereby rejecting Christ.

They have committed the blasphemy of the Holy Spirit and can never be renewed unto repentance. But the thing is, they will never want to be renewed unto repentance in Christ.

So if you are ever concerned that you may have committed the blasphemy of the Holy Spirit, that is proof you haven't! You will not be concerned of it because you are no longer concerned about Christ.

GOD IS OUR SALVATION
AND IT IS GOD WHO IS SECURE

CAN CHRIST DIE AGAIN? Can He be crucified again? If He lives forever can this happen?

to renew them again unto repentance; " they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame."

Or

What this is saying is we count worthless What Christ has done.


We are to keep ourselves in His hands..
Who would go under the law and condemnation of it if one really understands?

We grow in grace...I believe in more ways than one. By getting rid of lies in our understanding. Well the writer knew this, and I believe God knows the heart.
What would be the purpose of discipline be if it was not meant to correct us.

So either God has a way of protecting His children and they are protected. Or He has a way of protecting them and they can choose to leave that protection. OR AND the sealing with the Holy Spirit is only if....

So I will take the position that When one is sealed with until the day....that, that is God's protection.

The question then is can one taste and not be born from above? AND I'd have to say yes.
For in Acts How might those seeing the miracles and knowing about their savior still choose to reject Him? Because they may have liked their ways better.

Yet in Hebrews He said even though they spoke like that, that they see them in a place that accompanied salvation[dont quote me]paraphrasing .

And it was still if God let that be....another words it was hypothetical. Proving why they should move forward in the faith. The only way I see one putting themselves under condemnation is in mind set, on doing what is evil...or trying to become your own God.
SO you make a good pt.

 

[Grailhunter]

Actually I am referring to Christians and the “genuine” is just an adjective I use to describe them who i am referring to. That is not a personal term even. I could use the adjective “true” instead of “genuine” of you prefer that.

I agree that, that adjective is a personal term that you have yet to define.
Again you keep referencing non biblical terms..."true Christian and genuine Christian are terms / phrases that do not appear in the scriptures.
Define your personal terms and we can move on.

 

[Grailhunter]

Actually I am referring to Christians and the “genuine” is just an adjective I use to describe them who i am referring to. That is not a personal term even. I could use the adjective “true” instead of “genuine” of you prefer that.

So you are actually having an issue with the term “genuine Christian”? Well, no problem. What adjective do you suggest is acceptable to you? But to make even easier, how would you like me to refer to one with a genuine faith in God and in Jesus Christ? Perhaps “the elect”? Or the “not false brethren”? Or “children of God”? Or “the sheep”? Or the “body of Christ”? Or simply “the Christians”? You can choose any of that where you don’t any issue with. It would be fine with me. At least you and the readers know whom I am referring to.

<<<So as far as your list of 33 items that you believe describes the beliefs of "genuine Christians" I would say I agree with some of them and disagree with some of them.>>>

Please be kind enough to list the numbers in the list which you agree with and the numbers which you disagree. Thanks.

Tong
R2919

The bible does not say that, those items define a genuine Christians...because the phrase genuine Christians does not appear in the scriptures. Define your personal term and we can move on.

 

[Tong2020]

Tong2020 said: ↑
If we are raised with Christ, what does that mean?

It means we are Christians.

It means we were made alive with Christ. I guess you know what that means.

Tong
R2920

 

[Corlove13]

No one can trust God except that God first give them the evidence of the gospel through the gift of faith, through which they can then trust God for salvation, if they want to do that. Most people don't, and so they cast the word of faith about the gospel from their hearts. There are a few, though, who will retain the word of faith they heard, and retain it all the way to the end, and are saved.

what is the word of faith...? Tks

 

[Grailhunter]

It means we were made alive with Christ. I guess you know what that means.

Tong
R2920

We are Christians.
Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him

 

[Eternally Grateful]

I am not discussing a pagan church.
Your belief did not exist until 1500 years after the biblical era and then it Calvinism that is messed up.
And a good part of that is mostly social and political view....sin and sin some more and go to heaven.
You should make that into a song.

The pagan church you refuse to discuss, is the church that forced all people to believe what they did, And destroyed any documents or books which did not agree with them

Again, I go with what the word said, because it is the inspired word of God. Your trust in history is misled.

 

[Tong2020]

Sorry folks, I can't go along with this! I know it's a huge argument but the scripture makes it clear that man can lose his salvation through unbelief, that is, no longer believing in Christ for whatever reason and just walking away from Him.

This is what blasphemy of the Holy Spirit is all about, as we shall see from scripture! The Holy Spirit is humiliated by dwelling in a person who now rejects Christ!

There were some who had accepted Christ as their Saviour but now have gone back to temple worship (Judaism) and renounced Christ. This is what is happening in Hebrews 6.

But before we go there, I would like to say that OSAS came from the Calvinist teaching that the chosen of God cannot resist His grace. They cannot resist receiving it or resist losing it. Therefore they cannot lose their salvation. I intend to prove this is not biblical!

Hebrews 6:4-6

"For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,

And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,

If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame."

As we see here, they were "made partakers of the Holy Spirit" and fell away, in this case, going back to temple worship, thereby rejecting Christ.

They have committed the blasphemy of the Holy Spirit and can never be renewed unto repentance. But the thing is, they will never want to be renewed unto repentance in Christ.

So if you are ever concerned that you may have committed the blasphemy of the Holy Spirit, that is proof you haven't! You will not be concerned of it because you are no longer concerned about Christ.

I think you have to read again Hebrews 6:4-6. But read it without taking with you any other intent but to understand what it says. Perhaps you will see something there you don’t yet see.

4For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.

Tong
R2921

 

[Tong2020]

Tong2020 said: ↑
Actually I am referring to Christians and the “genuine” is just an adjective I use to describe them who i am referring to. That is not a personal term even. I could use the adjective “true” instead of “genuine” of you prefer that.

I agree that, that adjective is a personal term that you have yet to define.
Again you keep referencing non biblical terms..."true Christian and genuine Christian are terms / phrases that do not appear in the scriptures.
Define your personal terms and we can move on.

The word “genuine” means true or not false. Scriptures speaks of false brethren. If there are false brethren then there are true brethren. And in scriptures the Christians refer to each other as brethren or brothers. So among the Christians, there are false and there true or genuine. Hope that satisfies you.

Tong
R2922

 

[Behold]

I have never broken the Law or the 613 Laws of the Mosaic Law because I have never been in the Covenant of the Old Testament.

Let me show you something interesting.
You just denied breaking the law.
Do you know who gave the law?

"The Law came by Moses, but Grace came by Jesus".

Now let me show you...
The 10 commandments, came by MOSES.
Why ?
Because the LAW came by MOSES.
Have you ever broken a commandment?
Have you ever lied?
Have you ever cheated?
Have you ever stolen anything?
Have you ever had something in your heart that was more important to you then God?
Have you ever had sex outside of marriage?
Have you ever had sex in your mind with a male or female that was not your wife?

So, you've sinned, and not just once.
You've broken the law of God and not just once.
Being born again will resolve that for you.
Nothing else will.

 

[Tong2020]

Tong2020 said: ↑
Actually I am referring to Christians and the “genuine” is just an adjective I use to describe them who i am referring to. That is not a personal term even. I could use the adjective “true” instead of “genuine” of you prefer that.

So you are actually having an issue with the term “genuine Christian”? Well, no problem. What adjective do you suggest is acceptable to you? But to make even easier, how would you like me to refer to one with a genuine faith in God and in Jesus Christ? Perhaps “the elect”? Or the “not false brethren”? Or “children of God”? Or “the sheep”? Or the “body of Christ”? Or simply “the Christians”? You can choose any of that where you don’t any issue with. It would be fine with me. At least you and the readers know whom I am referring to.

<<<So as far as your list of 33 items that you believe describes the beliefs of "genuine Christians" I would say I agree with some of them and disagree with some of them.>>>

Please be kind enough to list the numbers in the list which you agree with and the numbers which you disagree. Thanks.

The bible does not say that, those items define a genuine Christians...because the phrase genuine Christians does not appear in the scriptures. Define your personal term and we can move on.

The word “genuine” means true or not false. Scriptures speaks of false brethren. If there are false brethren then there are true brethren. And in scriptures the Christians refer to each other as brethren or brothers. So among the Christians, there are false and there true or genuine. Hope that satisfies you.

Tong
R2923

 

[Grailhunter]

The pagan church you refuse to discuss, is the church that forced all people to believe what they did, And destroyed any documents or books which did not agree with them

I am not sure what you are referring to. If you are referring to the Catholic Church, it was not Pagan. And I am not refusing to discuss the Catholic Church. The point I make is that OSAS is not biblical and does not occur in history until modern times. Being inline with social and political beliefs. Indirectly OSAS by default can be connected to Calvinism only because of the belief that God is a puppet master and in effect does not allowing free-will and determined who was going to heaven and hell before the creation of the world. Which defines God with satanic characteristics.

 

[Grailhunter]

I think you have to read again Hebrews 6:4-6. But read it without taking with you any other intent but to understand what it says. Perhaps you will see something there you don’t yet see.

4For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.

Tong
R2921

I know Hebrews well.
What is your point?

 

[Tong2020]

Tong2020 said: ↑
It means we were made alive with Christ. I guess you know what that means

We are Christians.
Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him

And since you said you were raised with Christ, then it is a given that you were dead with Christ before that.

Tong
R2924

 

[Corlove13]

GOD IS OUR SALVATION
AND IT IS GOD WHO IS SECURE

CAN CHRIST DIE AGAIN? Can He be crucified again? If He lives forever can this happen?

to renew them again unto repentance; " they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame."

Or

What this is saying is we count worthless What Christ has done.


We are to keep ourselves in His hands..
Who would go under the law and condemnation of it if one really understands?

We grow in grace...I believe in more ways than one. By getting rid of lies in our understanding. Well the writer knew this, and I believe God knows the heart.
What would be the purpose of discipline be if it was not meant to correct us.

So either God has a way of protecting His children and they are protected. Or He has a way of protecting them and they can choose to leave that protection. OR AND the sealing with the Holy Spirit is only if....

So I will take the position that When one is sealed with until the day....that, that is God's protection.

The question then is can one taste and not be born from above? AND I'd have to say yes.
For in Acts How might those seeing the miracles and knowing about their savior still choose to reject Him? Because they may have liked their ways better.

Yet in Hebrews He said even though they spoke like that, that they see them in a place that accompanied salvation[dont quote me]paraphrasing .

And it was still if God let that be....another words it was hypothetical. Proving why they should move forward in the faith. The only way I see one putting themselves under condemnation is in mind set, on doing what is evil...or trying to become your own God.
SO you make a good pt.

Duet
If thou shalt keep all these commandments to do them, which I command thee this day, to love the Lord thy God, and to walk ever in his ways; then shalt thou add three cities more for thee, beside these three:

10 That innocent blood be not shed in thy land, which the Lord thy God giveth thee for an inheritance, and so blood be upon thee.

11 But if any man hate his neighbour, and lie in wait for him, and rise up against him, and smite him mortally that he die, and fleeth into one of these cities:

12 Then the elders of his city shall send and fetch him thence, and deliver him into the hand of the avenger of blood, that he may die

 

[Tong2020]

Tong2020 said: ↑
I think you have to read again Hebrews 6:4-6. But read it without taking with you any other intent but to understand what it says. Perhaps you will see something there you don’t yet see.

4For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Himto an open shame.

I know Hebrews well.
What is your point?

That post was meant for charlie24. I was just suggesting that he read it again, and read it this time without his expressed intent in his post that I responded to.

It would defeat the purpose of my suggestion to him if I were to address your question here.

Tong
R2925

 

[Grailhunter]

Let me show you something interesting.
You just denied breaking the law.
Do you know who gave the law?

God gave the Law to the Israelites. Moses was the custodian of the Law, which is why they are called the Mosaic Law. Now the Jews believed that all of the Laws were from God but Christ cast doubt on that with the discussion He had with the Jews on the topic of divorce.

Now let me show you...
The 10 commandments, came by MOSES.

The 10 commandments that you are referring to, were spoken to the Israelites by God at Mt. Sinai. And there were 14 not ten. And God never called them commandments. The actual Ten Commandment occur in Exodus 34:10-28.

Because the LAW came by MOSES.
Have you ever broken a commandment?
Have you ever lied?
Have you ever cheated?
Have you ever stolen anything?
Have you ever had something in your heart that was more important to you then God?
Have you ever had sex outside of marriage?
Have you ever had sex in your mind with a male or female that was not your wife?

There are 613 Mosaic Laws...thank you...And I have not broke any of them because I am a Christian. I am have a new covenant with God, mediated by Christ and it is His moral teachings that I follow. I cannot break something that never applied to me.

So, you've sinned, and not just once.
You've broken the law of God and not just once.
Being born again will resolve that for you.
Nothing else will.

So I have sinned and will sin. But my sin is against Christ who has taken all authority of judgement and establish a new covenant with God. And all issues have been resolved for me.

 

[Grailhunter]

The word “genuine” means true or not false. Scriptures speaks of false brethren. If there are false brethren then there are true brethren. And in scriptures the Christians refer to each other as brethren or brothers. So among the Christians, there are false and there true or genuine. Hope that satisfies you.

Tong
R2923

So again, define what you believe is a genuine Christian ... sola scriptoria, use the scriptures that you believe defines a genuine Christian.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

what is the word of faith...? Tks

The word of faith is the gospel message of Christ. God delivers that message to all he calls. It is delivered via the Holy Spirit. The Spirit testifies to every man that the gospel is true. From there each person decides to retain that testimony, or refuse it and cast it away.

6 it is the Spirit who testifies, because the Spirit is the truth.
9...it is the testimony of God, which he has given about his Son.
10Whoever believes in the Son of God accepts this testimony. Whoever does not believe God has made him out to be a liar, because they have not believed the testimony God has given about his Son.
11And this is the testimony: God has given us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.

1 John 5:6-11​