You can never lose your salvation!

[pia]

How's it handle? <chuckle>

Pretty good, right?....:)

 

[Helen]

Let's not completely ignore though that Elisabeth and Zacharias are written of as "righteous" and "blameless".

Hello Richard
Sorry for delay. Not up to full power yet..but slowly getting there.
I know I will not be doing your posts justice.

I agree that Elisabeth and Zacharias were righteous and blameless.
I think our difference is that you see it as by what they did and didn't do.
I believe it was because of Whom they believed. We 'do' because like Moses, "we see Him who is invisible" , we do not 'do' to become righteous, we 'do' because we see Him and because of that we chose the live in the sunshine of His love. Like King David. It was his heart for God that was his anchor of his faith, not his action...in fact his actions often betrayed him!
And God called David "a man after mine own heart." He knew that David had understood what relationship was all about.

We 'do' because we are, we don't 'do' to become.

Well that is what I believe..and I am sticking there ;)

 

[Helen]

I am reminded of an old story. (There are many versions, and I shall paraphrase to simply get the gist of it):

IMO: This also is representative of us in Christ. We have our old nature, and we are a new creation. Which shall come out on top? Which shall be the overcomer? We have a choice, which of our natures shall we feed. Sounds easy from such a story, but it isn't that simple, and it is a lifelong battle. My biggest weakness, is in how I treat / love my neighbor at times.

We could liken this to big bad "law" v grace epidemic.

As Paul wrote, we do not "earn" our "righteousness". It is through our actions, that we are "justified". Righteousness is by faith. Faith however, is not mere "belief". Nor is faith mere "action". Faith, is believing, and then acting upon said "belief".

If we are depending upon our actions as in our own works, then we also stumble and follow in the footsteps of Israel:

Rom 9:31 but Israel, following after a law of righteousness, did not arrive at that law.
Rom 9:32 Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by works. They stumbled at the stone of stumbling;

If we choose to adhere to the Instruction, it is because we believe what YHVH hath said, and we act upon said belief.

Jam 1:22 But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deluding your own selves. 23 For if any one is a hearer of the word and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a mirror: 24 for he beholdeth himself, and goeth away, and straightway forgetteth what manner of man he was. 25 But he that looketh into the perfect law, the law of liberty, and so continueth, being not a hearer that forgetteth but a doer that worketh, this man shall be blessed in his doing.

Didn't mother always tell us to "think" before we "act"? What we think upon, shall direct our actions.

Thanks.
Yes, I like the first story and throw out the second :)
I can't see that anyone benefits by feeding the 'old man' within. Feeding it to keep it balanced...is keeps it alive. When God said- 'reckon yourself dead indeed to sin and alive unto Christ." My problem is acknowledging that the old man as 'alive' just because it shouts loudly and acts like it.

I agree, faith has legs. If not it abides alone and has no fruit and no glory to God.

You said "As Paul wrote, we do not "earn" our "righteousness". It is through our actions, that we are "justified". "
Sorry...I can't go with you there.
Titus 3:7 - That being justified by His grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.
Romans 5:1 - Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:
Galatians 3:24 - Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster [to bring us] unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

Romans 4:25 "...if we believe on Him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead;Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification."

I think we 'almost' see things the same but not quite.
I still feel that you are walking with a foot in both camps.
Believing in grace, but relying on your actions for justification.
( but, that's not my business is it. ;) )

Much blessing Helen

 

[KBCid]

So basically what you are saying, that once declared "righteous" for one "act" of faith. We can disregard anything else, even if "God" himself should decide to "prove" us, we need not listen or obey.
Jam 2:20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith apart from works is barren? 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, in that he offered up Isaac his son upon the altar? 22 Thou seest that faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect; 23 and the scripture was fulfilled which saith, And Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned unto him for righteousness; and he was called the friend of God. 24 Ye see that by works a man is justified, and not only by faith.

For some unfathomable reason people want to make their burden as light as possible never gaining the concept that if we are to live in the kingdom to come that we will be expected to be righteous in all our ways both in thought and deed at all times so if anyone doesn't want to be that way now then why even try to make a show of fitting in where you won't want to be anyway.
There are even folks who think God will take the wheel for us and make us into totally different beings in order to fit into his kingdom. You of course know all these things Richard and I am doing no more than singing to the choir... but it seems to need to be said as I am being urged to state it.

 

[bbyrd009]

"the path of least resistance leads to the garbage heap of despair."

 

[KBCid]

"the path of least resistance leads to the garbage heap of despair."

Or "the path of least resistance leads to the destination of cease to existence ;)

 

[Stranger]

However, you have not answered the direct scripture that I referenced. All you are ending up doing is attacking me.
And be quite sure that I find no pleasure in seeing anyone sinning which is exactly why I am pointing that scripture out. If by chance I am able to help another see the truth then by chance that person might do what Christ is asking.

Luke 15:10Likewise, I say unto you, there is joy in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner that repenteth.

No, you find pleasure in taking credit for one not sinning. Such a nauseating approach.

Stranger

 

[KBCid]

No, you find pleasure in taking credit for one not sinning. Such a nauseating approach.
Stranger

Thus you prefer the keep on sinning method.

 

[Richard_oti]

Pretty good, right?....:)

<chuckle> Yep!

 

[Richard_oti]

My how we like to reword grace to appear repugnant to everyone. Because I believe we are saved by our faith and declared righteous by God, forever, then I must be saying we can disregard anything else God says to us. I must believe that it is ok for me to just sin all I want because I am secure in my salvation. Such a false conclusion.

You yourself stated that even had Abraham refused when "God" sought to try / prove him, that he was already righteous / saved. You did state "refused", which would be to willfully disobey.

Grace, is unmerited favor for things done in ignorance, and the unintentional. That done willfully, or with a "high hand":

Num 15:30a But the soul that doeth aught with a high hand, whether he be home-born or a sojourner ...

Heb 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more a sacrifice for sins

The difference, is that by which sin is defined between you and I.

Gen 26:5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

The scenario you have created can be likened to this. A woman is getting married. She has had many boyfriends in the past but has now met the man she loves and wants to be with the rest of her life. He asked her to marry him and she said yes. At the wedding the pastor declares them man and wife and they kiss each other. She then turns to the pastor and asks if they are legally married. He says yes. She then says that she can't wait to get home to call up some of her old boyfriends and go out with them. It is ridiculous.

From my perspective: You should be in charge of Princeton, Harvard or Yale. For according to that which you put forth. All anyone needs to do is Ace one class in their freshman year and they are fully accredited. A free ride, with a guaranteed masters degree even if they fail every attempt to "prove" them.

We are saved by one act of faith. We are declared righteous by that one act.

Saved for the manner which "God" prepared aforetime that we should walk in.

By what shall you be judged?
By what shall be your reward?

The salvation/justification James is speaking of is the walk of salvation, not our being declared righteous by God. This is why he used a totally different event in Abraham's life.

Which still states: That it was reckoned unto him for righteousness.

 

[Richard_oti]

Hello Richard
Sorry for delay. Not up to full power yet..but slowly getting there.
I know I will not be doing your posts justice.

Take your time. You are worth much more than silly posts.

I agree that Elisabeth and Zacharias were righteous and blameless.
I think our difference is that you see it as by what they did and didn't do.
I believe it was because of Whom they believed.

That works both ways. For just as with you, it is because of Whom I have believed.

We 'do' because like Moses, "we see Him who is invisible" , we do not 'do' to become righteous, we 'do' because we see Him and because of that we chose the live in the sunshine of His love.

Deu 6:5 and thou shalt love YHVH thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might.

Deu 6:25 And it shall be righteousness unto us, if we observe to do all this commandment before YHVH our God, as he hath commanded us.

Deu 9:4 Speak not thou in thy heart, after that YHVH thy God hath thrust them out from before thee, saying, For my righteousness YHVH hath brought me in to possess this land; whereas for the wickedness of these nations YHVH doth drive them out from before thee. 5 Not for thy righteousness, or for the uprightness of thy heart, dost thou go in to possess their land; but for the wickedness of these nations YHVH thy God doth drive them out from before thee, and that he may establish the word which YHVH sware unto thy fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob.
6 Know therefore, that YHVH thy God giveth thee not this good land to possess it for thy righteousness; for thou art a stiffnecked people.

Rom 11:30 For as ye in time past were disobedient to God, but now have obtained mercy by their disobedience,

Rom 11:18 glory not over the branches: but if thou gloriest, it is not thou that bearest the root, but the root thee. 19 Thou wilt say then, Branches were broken off, that I might be grafted in.
20 Well; by their unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by thy faith. Be not highminded, but fear: 21 for if God spared not the natural branches, neither will he spare thee.
22 Behold then the goodness and severity of God: toward them that fell, severity; but toward thee, God's goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.


Rom 9:16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that hath mercy.

Rom 11:11 I say then, Did they stumble that they might fall? God forbid: but by their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, to provoke them to jealousy.

Like King David. It was his heart for God that was his anchor of his faith, not his action...in fact his actions often betrayed him!
And God called David "a man after mine own heart." He knew that David had understood what relationship was all about.

Indeed.

Psa 119:33 Teach me, O YHVH, the way of thy statutes; And I shall keep it unto the end. 34 Give me understanding, and I shall keep thy law; Yea, I shall observe it with my whole heart.
35 Make me to go in the path of thy commandments; For therein do I delight.

Psa 119:44 So shall I observe thy law continually For ever and ever. 45 And I shall walk at liberty; For I have sought thy precepts. 46 I will also speak of thy testimonies before kings, And shall not be put to shame. 47 And I will delight myself in thy commandments, Which I have loved. 48 I will lift up my hands also unto thy commandments, which I have loved; And I will meditate on thy statutes.

Psa 119:71 It is good for me that I have been afflicted; That I may learn thy statutes. 72 The law of thy mouth is better unto me Than thousands of gold and silver. 73 Thy hands have made me and fashioned me: Give me understanding, that I may learn thy commandments.

Psa 119:92 Unless thy law had been my delight, I should then have perished in mine affliction.


Pro 7:1 My son, keep my words, And lay up my commandments with thee. 2 Keep my commandments and live; And my law as the apple of thine eye. 3 Bind them upon thy fingers; Write them upon the tablet of thy heart.

We 'do' because we are, we don't 'do' to become.

I do because I love. For He first loved me, and to uphold His Instruction, is my expression of thanks and love to Him, to do as He has asked / instructed of His people.

John 14:15 If ye love me, ye will keep my commandments.

John 15:14 Ye are my friends, if ye do the things which I command you.

Well that is what I believe..and I am sticking there ;)

<chuckle> Ditto!

 

[Richard_oti]

Thanks.
Yes, I like the first story and throw out the second :)

I did too at first years ago.

I can't see that anyone benefits by feeding the 'old man' within. Feeding it to keep it balanced...is keeps it alive. When God said- 'reckon yourself dead indeed to sin and alive unto Christ." My problem is acknowledging that the old man as 'alive' just because it shouts loudly and acts like it.

Yet, the old man is there at times. Moreso when we are younger.

Perhaps I should have given an example: You have grandkids, perhaps they like to play video games. There is nothing "sinful" in the playing of such. However, neither is there anything "spiritual". The playing of such, is a feeding of the flesh. It satisfies an urge / desire of the flesh in a manner that is not "sinful". Thus allowing a release of the old man, which perhaps allows a better "balance", perhaps a measure of peace between the two. For the old man received a little and thus allows the new creation to also feed in peace.

To take it to a more extreme measure: Anything we do for ourselves, while perhaps not sin, could be construed as a feeding of the old man. Perhaps it is merely that new TV, or a certain nice coat that we don't really need, but desire. For it did nothing for us as a new creation.

As long as we are not allowing the old man to feed upon the desire to sin, then the "balance", can actually allow us to be stronger. As long as it is not to the extreme, but everything in moderation.

I agree, faith has legs. If not it abides alone and has no fruit and no glory to God.

Indeed.

You said "As Paul wrote, we do not "earn" our "righteousness". It is through our actions, that we are "justified". "
Sorry...I can't go with you there.

Understood. I was thinking of such as:

Rom 2:13 for not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified:

And:

Mat 12:37 For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned.

Jam 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, in that he offered up Isaac his son upon the altar? 22 Thou seest that faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect; 23 and the scripture was fulfilled which saith, And Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned unto him for righteousness; and he was called the friend of God. 24 Ye see that by works a man is justified, and not only by faith.

Perhaps it was a poor choice of words on my part.

<snip>

I think we 'almost' see things the same but not quite.

The same but different <chuckle>

I still feel that you are walking with a foot in both camps.

Perhaps I do. For I uphold the Instruction, and rely upon grace should I fall short or be found to have missed the mark.

Believing in grace, but relying on your actions for justification.

Without grace, I would be destined to destruction for my former sins before I knew "God".

1 Peter 1:14 as children of obedience, not fashioning yourselves according to your former lusts in the time of your ignorance:


Now that I know what sin is through the knowledge of truth, it behooves me to take captive my thoughts and actions, conforming them to the likeness of His son.

Rom 8:29 For whom he foreknew, he also foreordained to be conformed to the image of his Son


Heb 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more a sacrifice for sins,

( but, that's not my business is it. ;) )

Jam 1:22 But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deluding your own selves. 23 For if any one is a hearer of the word and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a mirror: 24 for he beholdeth himself, and goeth away, and straightway forgetteth what manner of man he was. 25 But he that looketh into the perfect law, the law of liberty, and so continueth, being not a hearer that forgetteth but a doer that worketh, this man shall be blessed in his doing. 22 Thou seest that faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect;

Jam 2:24 Ye see that by works a man is justified, and not only by faith.

In His love,
Richard

 

[Richard_oti]

For some unfathomable reason people want to make their burden as light as possible never gaining the concept that if we are to live in the kingdom to come that we will be expected to be righteous in all our ways both in thought and deed at all times so

But is it really a burden? I admit, for myself years ago, the hardest step of faith, was that initial step into His Shabat. Now, I wouldn't trade it for anything.

1 John 5:3 for this is the love of God, that His commands we may keep, and His commands are not burdensome;

Deut 30:11 For this commandment which I command thee this day, it is not too hard for thee, neither is it far off.

if anyone doesn't want to be that way now then why even try to make a show of fitting in where you won't want to be anyway.

Heb 5:9 and having been made perfect, he became unto all them that obey him the author of eternal salvation;

Rom 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye present yourselves as servants unto obedience, his servants ye are whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

As it is written: Zec 6:15 And they that are far off shall come and build in the temple of YHVH; and ye shall know that YHVH of hosts hath sent me unto you. And this shall come to pass, if ye will diligently obey the voice of YHVH your God.

Deut 30:10 if thou shalt obey the voice of YHVH thy God, to keep his commandments and his statutes which are written in this book of the law; if thou turn unto YHVH thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul.

There are even folks who think God will take the wheel for us and make us into totally different beings in order to fit into his kingdom.

Which is to attempt to make "God" in our image, rather than for us to conform to His image.

"History recalls, how great the fall can be ... Can you hear, what I'm saying" - Fool's Overture

You of course know all these things Richard and I am doing no more than singing to the choir... but it seems to need to be said as I am being urged to state it.

Indeed.

 

[Stranger]

You yourself stated that even had Abraham refused when "God" sought to try / prove him, that he was already righteous / saved. You did state "refused", which would be to willfully disobey.

Grace, is unmerited favor for things done in ignorance, and the unintentional. That done willfully, or with a "high hand":

Num 15:30a But the soul that doeth aught with a high hand, whether he be home-born or a sojourner ...

Heb 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more a sacrifice for sins

The difference, is that by which sin is defined between you and I.

Gen 26:5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.




From my perspective: You should be in charge of Princeton, Harvard or Yale. For according to that which you put forth. All anyone needs to do is Ace one class in their freshman year and they are fully accredited. A free ride, with a guaranteed masters degree even if they fail any and every attempt to "prove" them.




Saved for the manner which "God" prepared aforetime that we should walk in.

By what shall you be judged?
By what shall be your reward?




Which still states: That it was reckoned unto him for righteousness.

Your definition of 'grace' is not grace at all. It is nothing but law.

Sinning against God and having an attitude of sinning all I want because I am now saved is not the same thing. And you expressed the attitude of the Christian who believes he cannot lose his salvation as believing he can sin all he wants because he is saved. Which is as I say, ridiculous. And, yes, Abraham was already declared righteous by God. Which means had he not obeyed God, concerning Isaac, he was still saved.

Wilfull sin or sins of ignorance have nothing to do as to whether or not we can lose our salvation. Are you saying you don't sin wilfully? When you do sin wilfully did you lose your salvation? How did you get it back? Or, did you?

You don't understand (Heb. 10:26). "For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins," Paul here is comparing the many animal sacrifices to the One Sacrifice of Jesus Christ. Now that Christ has given the sacrifice that takes away all sin, we do not seek another sacrifice every time we sin. You just need to read the whole chapter or book. (Heb. 10:1) "For the law having a shadow of good things to come,...can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers there unto perfect." (Heb. 10:18) "Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin."

What does (Nu. 15:30) have to do with being eternally saved?

What does (Gen. 26:5) have to do with being eternally saved?

Well, salvation is free. That is the way God has made it.

I have no problem with our walk of salvation, or our doing good works as a result of our being righteous before God. That is different than one's initial salvation where he is declared righteous. Our walk of salvation is possible only because our eternal destination has been secured. Our walk of salvation does not add or take away from our being declared righteous before God.

Our judgement will be one of rewards where we can lose. But we only lose rewards, not our salvation. (1 Cor. 3:11-15)

(James 2:23) is a quote from (Gen. 15:6). James is not saying Abraham did works and so was declared righteous by God. He is saying Abrahams works are a fulfillment of Abraham being declared righteous by God. "And the Scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God."

Stranger

 

[Stranger]

Thus you prefer the keep on sinning method.

I prefer the believer keep on walking in the Spirit method. Sin and all.

I despise those who seek to place a believer under law, to just quit sinning, and then glory in their obedience to the law, when they deceive themselves that they have kept the law.

Stranger

 

[bbyrd009]

Or "the path of least resistance leads to the destination of cease to existence ;)

ha well that was a quote from a song, but whatever lol
maybe playing Duelling Christians with Stranger will be more productive? :)

 

[KBCid]

But is it really a burden? I admit, for myself years ago, the hardest step of faith, was that initial step into His Shabat. Now, I wouldn't trade it for anything.
1 John 5:3 for this is the love of God, that His commands we may keep, and His commands are not burdensome;
Deut 30:11 For this commandment which I command thee this day, it is not too hard for thee, neither is it far off.

Nor would I trade it.
I see the Burden only being so during the change from evil to Good. Men become accustomed to a way of existing and thus comfortable in that way. To make a change is where it becomes uncomfortable for them and they perceive it as a new burden to their lifestyle. In the end when they have transitioned and no longer follow the dictates of the flesh then it is not a burden any more as Gods ways become quite easy to follow and a delight to those who like myself have always desired to exist in a kingdom where love is the guide to all people in all places.
Thus for those who feel comfortable in giving in to the desires of their flesh they seek to make God's path into one which makes it so that they do not have to alter their current way of existing as for them it would be a burden to deny their fleshly desires.

Heb 5:9 and having been made perfect, he became unto all them that obey him the author of eternal salvation;
Rom 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye present yourselves as servants unto obedience, his servants ye are whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
As it is written: Zec 6:15 And they that are far off shall come and build in the temple of YHVH; and ye shall know that YHVH of hosts hath sent me unto you. And this shall come to pass, if ye will diligently obey the voice of YHVH your God.
Deut 30:10 if thou shalt obey the voice of YHVH thy God, to keep his commandments and his statutes which are written in this book of the law; if thou turn unto YHVH thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul.

I can do no more than underscore the truth...

Which is to attempt to make "God" in our image, rather than for us to conform to His image.
"History recalls, how great the fall can be ... Can you hear, what I'm saying" - Fool's Overture

Still he's calling us out of our sleep
My friends, we're not alone
He waits in silence to lead us all home...

Beautiful...

 

[KBCid]

I prefer the believer keep on walking in the Spirit method. Sin and all.
I despise those who seek to place a believer under law, to just quit sinning, and then glory in their obedience to the law, when they deceive themselves that they have kept the law. Stranger

So you believe people should not follow these since they were the founding commandments that God formed all the OT laws from;
Matthew 22:36 “Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?”
37 Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.38 This is the first and greatest commandment. 39 And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself. 40 All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.

Thus your message is believe in Christ but go on not loving God with all your heart and go on not loving your neighbor.... you will be forgiven all those trespasses because you believe in Christ...

 

[bbyrd009]

So you believe people should not follow these since they were the founding commandments that God formed all the OT laws from;
Matthew 22:36 “Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?”
37 Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.38 This is the first and greatest commandment. 39 And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself. 40 All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.

Thus your message is believe in Christ but go on not loving God with all your heart and go on not loving your neighbor.... you will be forgiven all those trespasses because you believe in Christ...

gotta admit what he is saying sounds good, until we get to the part where confession is absent, ya

 

[Stranger]

So you believe people should not follow these since they were the founding commandments that God formed all the OT laws from;
Matthew 22:36 “Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?”
37 Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.38 This is the first and greatest commandment. 39 And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself. 40 All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.

Thus your message is believe in Christ but go on not loving God with all your heart and go on not loving your neighbor.... you will be forgiven all those trespasses because you believe in Christ...

(Matt. 22:36-39) is nothing but law. So, yes, we as Christians do not try and please God by keeping the Law. In fact, God will not be pleased with you trying to please Him by following the Law.

Again, a rewording of 'grace' to make it sound repugnant. Did I say the believer under grace is to not love God? Of course not. But love under grace is a response not a command. We love Him because He first loved us. We walk in the Spirit. The more we walk with Him the greater we get to know Him and the greater our love for Him.

Stranger