Why would God bother?

[Jackie D]

(Lunar;52412)
God doesn't need those things for fulfillmentGlory means honor, admiration, or praise. No one would raise their children just for the sake of praise.
Ah but we as children of parents praise our parents in many different ways. Obedience being among them. The thing is God gave free will. That will is never taken. So the true glory to God doesn't come from a world full of people who praise and glorify Him just because He says they have to, but because a choice is made by each person to either believe or not to believe, to love Him or not to love Him. Those who believe Him and love Him, even when spoken praise isn't given, praise and bring glory to God through their belief.
Let's do a thought experiment. Let's pretend that, through ingenious scientific discovery, a man acquired so much power that he could create entire universes just as intricate as ours. Let's pretend that he did just that, for the sake of his own glory. And then let's pretend that he demanded that all of his creation worshipped him, with the threat of eternal punishment.
You see here in your "thought experiment" you have painted a picture of exactly how man would do it. You see the motivation for praise and glory to this man would not be because of his love for us, but of his love for himself and what he has created. God does not have an evil mind or an evil heart. Man DOES and so this experiment can't work nor does it hold water. God does not demand it of you. You have a choice. Your choices of course have results, but that is beside the point. Inside of each of us is the knowledge of what is morally right and what is morally wrong. So if a person chooses to ignore God and wants to keep their lifestyles because they fear that life will be boring or what ever motivates their decision God is not going to stop them. It is easy to lay the blame for our indecision to follow God at His feet when we struggle with changing and the pain that change might bring about.
If all there is to understand is a contradiction, then I feel as though that's an argument against Christian theology. If you think there's something more than that, you'll have to explain it to me, because I'm not seeing it.
I understand truly I do. You see I am a recovered drug addict who lived a life that was real bad. I ran in any way I possibly could from God and the pull that He had on my heart for a very long time. And the "contradiction" argument was one I used quite often. Listen to this, man is the one who has erred in portraying God and His Word. You should by all means question any contradiction you might find within the "Christian Theologies" and the translated bibles. But and I truly mean BUT, there are ways around the tower of babel that the church has become and that is going straight to the source. I have heard that the NIV study bible and The New Revised American Standard bibles aren't that far off translationally from the original texts...These of course are only opinion. There is always going to be contradiction, but you are a smart guy, I think you have the ability to work these things out with a little dilligence and common sense.

Lunar, don't take man's word for it. Man is prideful and stupid and will say and do anything to appear righteous and good to others. That does not make him so. The ignorance of him doesn't come because God is a contradiction within Himself. He is beyond all comprehension of everything that is good and just. The mind of man and the adversary (Satan)are the ones who make God into a small finite being....You are in my prayers Lunar.

 

[Richard_oti]

(Lunar;52412)
why would an all-powerful being like God need to raise children to be fulfilled? Raising children is the realm of mortals. God could simply wish himself to be fulfilled and have it done.
Pardon my intrusion, but if I may: Let's try another possible perspective.God has a son. He absolutely delights in His son. For His son, He creates a whole world and everything in it. His son, is right there by His side, delighting in every moment of it, rejoicing always before His Father in the wonder of creation...

 

[Lunar]

But God is omnipotent. He doesn't need to have people choose to obey him to have glory. He can simply will himself to have glory, because he's omnipotent.

But why does God even need something to love? He didn't create people out of the need to love something. God doesn't need anything. Creating things to love seems completely ad hoc.

It's not besides the point. When the choice is between that or hell...that's not much of a choice. It's more like authoritarianism.

I ran in any way I possibly could from God and the pull that He had on my heart for a very long time. And the "contradiction" argument was one I used quite often.

I don't think you understand. I'm not "running" from God. It's not as though I think he's real but am ignoring him anyway. I think it's more accurate to say that God has not found me. Nowhere in any experience of my life has God made himself evident in anything more tangible than theological sophistry.

too[/i] much common sense, as I've devoted plenty of time to studying the Bible and still have not been able to work past the apparent contradictions. As I understand it, the few bible verses that hint at God's motivations for creation portray him as vainglorious.

God has a son. He absolutely delights in His son. For His son' date=' He creates a whole world and everything in it. His son, is right there by His side, delighting in every moment of it, rejoicing always before His Father in the wonder of creation...[/QUOTE']So God created the world for his son...so it could kill him? He could have just wished his son to be happy or wondrous and spared him the trouble of being crucified.Basically, none of these answers solve the problem: Why creation? Whatever motive God had, he could have simply willed himself to achieve it without bothering with material creation.

 

[waquinas]

Lunar,Do you have children?

 

[Lunar]

(waquinas;53288)
Lunar,Do you have children?
No, I do not have any children; I'm gay.Why do you ask?

 

[verzanumi24]

(Lunar;52277)
A simple question.God, supposedly, is a being of infinite power and wisdom. What reason would he have to concern himself with creating a physical universe, and in particular, people? Why did he bother?
Because God had eternally decided that human beings would be the ones that would have an intimate relationship with Him and be co rulers over all things with Him.

 

[Alpha and Omega]

(Lunar;52277)
A simple question.God, supposedly, is a being of infinite power and wisdom. What reason would he have to concern himself with creating a physical universe, and in particular, people? Why did he bother?
Tell me Lunar, If I gave you an answer the best answer anyone could give you would it satisfy you? Would you then turn to God?Why do you ask silly questions?Here is my answer though. If you really want to know you will have to be in heaven and ask him yourself. But I think you know what you have to do to get there.

 

[verzanumi24]

(Alpha and Omega;54017)
Tell me Lunar, If I gave you an answer the best answer anyone could give you would it satisfy you? Would you then turn to God?Why do you ask silly questions?Here is my answer though. If you really want to know you will have to be in heaven and ask him yourself. But I think you know what you have to do to get there.
I've asked that question to someone who kept asking me questions after answers. It became obvious that his intension was simply to find fault rather than a genuine desire to want to know, learn and seek God. This is one of the reasons why I avoided getting into endless debates; I simply state my point and if the person rejects it, I move on.

 

[Lunar]

(Alpha and Omega;54017)
Tell me Lunar, If I gave you an answer the best answer anyone could give you would it satisfy you? Would you then turn to God?
Depends how good the answer was. Most likely, no, I don't think this particular point could convince me. But if a satisfactory answer could be given to this and many other theological questions, like the problem of evil, proof of existence, etc., then yes, most certainly.(Alpha and Omega)
Why do you ask silly questions?
I don't think it's silly at all. I think it's a very important theological question.(verzanumi24)
I've asked that question to someone who kept asking me questions after answers. It became obvious that his intension was simply to find fault rather than a genuine desire to want to know, learn and seek God. This is one of the reasons why I avoided getting into endless debates; I simply state my point and if the person rejects it, I move on.
I'd appreciate if you let me speak for myself with respect to that. I consider this sort of discussion much more illuminating than simply stating one's opinions and then saying take it or leave it. Given the complexity of Christian theology, it is probably impossible to offer a single response that will be sufficiently informative or satisfactory. A back and forth exchange is much more enlightening.

 

[verzanumi24]

(Lunar;54045)
Depends how good the answer was. Most likely, no, I don't think this particular point could convince me. But if a satisfactory answer could be given to this and many other theological questions, like the problem of evil, proof of existence, etc., then yes, most certainly.I don't think it's silly at all. I think it's a very important theological question.I'd appreciate if you let me speak for myself with respect to that. I consider this sort of discussion much more illuminating than simply stating one's opinions and then saying take it or leave it. Given the complexity of Christian theology, it is probably impossible to offer a single response that will be sufficiently informative or satisfactory. A back and forth exchange is much more enlightening.
I would imagine that time will tell if you really have a desire to seek God and do what He expect of you, even if for now you may not understand many things…..you will never understand everything about God, which is why faith is very important for a Christian.All these peple lived by faith; this is the way it is, take it or leave it.Hebrews 11:6-40 (ESV) 6 And without faith it is impossible to please him, for whoever would draw near to God must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who seek him. 7 By faith Noah, being warned by God concerning events as yet unseen, in reverent fear constructed an ark for the saving of his household. By this he condemned the world and became an heir of the righteousness that comes by faith. 8 By faith Abraham obeyed when he was called to go out to a place that he was to receive as an inheritance. And he went out, not knowing where he was going. 9 By faith he went to live in the land of promise, as in a foreign land, living in tents with Isaac and Jacob, heirs with him of the same promise. 10 For he was looking forward to the city that has foundations, whose designer and builder is God. 11 By faith Sarah herself received power to conceive, even when she was past the age, since she considered him faithful who had promised. 12 Therefore from one man, and him as good as dead, were born descendants as many as the stars of heaven and as many as the innumerable grains of sand by the seashore. 13 These all died in faith, not having received the things promised, but having seen them and greeted them from afar, and having acknowledged that they were strangers and exiles on the earth. 14 For people who speak thus make it clear that they are seeking a homeland. 15 If they had been thinking of that land from which they had gone out, they would have had opportunity to return. 16 But as it is, they desire a better country, that is, a heavenly one. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for he has prepared for them a city. 17 By faith Abraham, when he was tested, offered up Isaac, and he who had received the promises was in the act of offering up his only son, 18 of whom it was said, "Through Isaac shall your offspring be named." 19 He considered that God was able even to raise him from the dead, from which, figuratively speaking, he did receive him back. 20 By faith Isaac invoked future blessings on Jacob and Esau. 21 By faith Jacob, when dying, blessed each of the sons of Joseph, bowing in worship over the head of his staff. 22 By faith Joseph, at the end of his life, made mention of the exodus of the Israelites and gave directions concerning his bones. 23 By faith Moses, when he was born, was hidden for three months by his parents, because they saw that the child was beautiful, and they were not afraid of the king's edict. 24 By faith Moses, when he was grown up, refused to be called the son of Pharaoh's daughter, 25 choosing rather to be mistreated with the people of God than to enjoy the fleeting pleasures of sin. 26 He considered the reproach of Christ greater wealth than the treasures of Egypt, for he was looking to the reward. 27 By faith he left Egypt, not being afraid of the anger of the king, for he endured as seeing him who is invisible. 28 By faith he kept the Passover and sprinkled the blood, so that the Destroyer of the firstborn might not touch them. 29 By faith the people crossed the Red Sea as if on dry land, but the Egyptians, when they attempted to do the same, were drowned. 30 By faith the walls of Jericho fell down after they had been encircled for seven days. 31 By faith Rahab the prostitute did not perish with those who were disobedient, because she had given a friendly welcome to the spies. 32 And what more shall I say? For time would fail me to tell of Gideon, Barak, Samson, Jephthah, of David and Samuel and the prophets— 33 who through faith conquered kingdoms, enforced justice, obtained promises, stopped the mouths of lions, 34 quenched the power of fire, escaped the edge of the sword, were made strong out of weakness, became mighty in war, put foreign armies to flight. 35 Women received back their dead by resurrection. Some were tortured, refusing to accept release, so that they might rise again to a better life. 36 Others suffered mocking and flogging, and even chains and imprisonment. 37 They were stoned, they were sawn in two, they were killed with the sword. They went about in skins of sheep and goats, destitute, afflicted, mistreated— 38 of whom the world was not worthy— wandering about in deserts and mountains, and in dens and caves of the earth. 39 And all these, though commended through their faith, did not receive what was promised, 40 since God had provided something better for us, that apart from us they should not be made perfect.God is the giver of all things good, so if you want to believe but have trouble believeing, then ask God for help, as this man did, because he believed, but had doubts.Mark 9:23-24 (ESV) 23 And Jesus said to him, "If you can! All things are possible for one who believes." 24 Immediately the father of the child cried out and said, "I believe; help my unbelief!"

 

[Alpha and Omega]

(Lunar;54045)
Depends how good the answer was. Most likely, no, I don't think this particular point could convince me. But if a satisfactory answer could be given to this and many other theological questions, like the problem of evil, proof of existence, etc., then yes, most certainly.I don't think it's silly at all. I think it's a very important theological question.
You know you probably have not found what you are looking for because you are asking the wrong questions. Asking questions that you know nobody has an answer to are pointless thus silly. The question you ask has only one answer. Speculation. What I am getting from questions like these are "I do not believe in God because no one can answer questions like why did he do this?"Wouldn't it be ridiculous if someone asked you the only way I will believe in evolution is if you tell me why it all happened. Not evolution per say but why did we come into existence (big bang). If you cannot answer me then I will not believe. Silly isn't it?Like I said before in a previous thread, there are lots of proofs of existence. We just have to realize them. For instance the Bible is a proof. How can 44 different people come to write a book like the Bible over 3000?? years. How about the prophecies fulfilled in the Bible? Jesus has fulfilled over 350 of them!

 

[verzanumi24]

(Shornaal;52281)
Another question I used to ask myself is what right does he have to meddle with our lives and judge us?
The answer to that question has something to do with the reason why God made human beings. God is the creator and owner of all things, including our lives. God's purpose must and will stand; His eternal plan is to create physical beings, whom He will live in. We were made to have a intimate relationship with God, and to inherit all things. God's eternal plan is for mankind to be ruler over the universe. Apart form God we have no purpose apart from earning a living, getting married and having children, retiring and in the end die. If this was all there is to life, it would be a tragedy...what a waste.God is concern about us and has the right to tell us what to do and how to live. Human beings without God’s guidance are like a blind person stumbling around in the middles of the day. Just look around you, look at the world. Do we live in a peaceful world where everyone love and respect each other? Do nations see each other as brothers and equals? We live in a world in which nations and individuals seek to rule over each other. This is the result of human beings rejecting God and doing what they believe is right as they see it.Until we all come to see that God's ways are always right, good and just, the world will continue to sink deeper and deeper into spiritual darkness, to the point where as Jesus said, if God does not cut the time short human beings will totally destroy the world.God is our only hope for mankind.

 

[Lunar]

(Alpha and Omega;54101)
Asking questions that you know nobody has an answer to are pointless thus silly. The question you ask has only one answer. Speculation.
I actually didn't know that, no; I expected that well-versed Christians would have attempted to answer it. But if it is canonical that there is no answer to the question then I guess that's that. Seems like a rather unfortunate hole in the theology.(Alpha and Omega)
Wouldn't it be ridiculous if someone asked you the only way I will believe in evolution is if you tell me why it all happened. Not evolution per say but why did we come into existence (big bang). If you cannot answer me then I will not believe. Silly isn't it?
That would be quite silly, yes, because the big bang has nothing to do with evolution. God's motivation for physical creation, however, has everything to do with Christian theology.(Alpha and Omega)
Like I said before in a previous thread, there are lots of proofs of existence. We just have to realize them. For instance the Bible is a proof. How can 44 different people come to write a book like the Bible over 3000?? years.
What's so unbelievable about that?(Alpha and Omega)
How about the prophecies fulfilled in the Bible? Jesus has fulfilled over 350 of them!
Jesus failed to fulfill the most important prophecy in the Bible: The second coming, which was predicted in numerous verses (Matthew 10:23, Mark 13:30-31, Mark 9:1, 1 Thes 4:16, Matthew 26:64) to occur within the lifetime of his followers.There are numerous other unfulfilled prophecies in the Bible as well. Most of the "fulfilled" prophecies are either very vaguely worded so as to be inevitably fulfilled, were self-fulfilling (i.e. if a Judaic ruler reads in the Torah source material that it has been prophesied a Judaic ruler will do X, then of course he is more likely to do X), and/or are chronicled only within the Bible itself and could have easily been added via redaction (in fact, there are a handful of cases in which we know this is true. This is the most insurmountable problem for biblical prophecy - followers of the Christian religious tradition obviously want to make it appear as though their prophecies came true, so they can simply read the prophecies which were written and write down that they did come true). The case for biblical prophecy is not very strong.I have already discussed biblical prophecy to death in other threads, however, so if there is nothing left to contribute to the discussion of why God would concern himself with physical creation, then that's that.

 

[Alpha and Omega]

(Lunar;54107)
That would be quite silly, yes, because the big bang has nothing to do with evolution. God's motivation for physical creation, however, has everything to do with Christian theology.
Like evolution having nothing to do with the big bang. God's motivation for creation has nothing to do with our pursuit for salvation.Also, I think it has been explained what the word generation means. It has many meanings. In this case it means the generation of the Jewish race. Which is still in this world. Furthermore, do you not think it would be out of character for Adam to Jesus = 4000 years and the Jesus' death to 2nd coming >100?

 

[Lunar]

(Alpha and Omega;54108)
Like evolution having nothing to do with the big bang. God's motivation for creation has nothing to do with our pursuit for salvation.
But the pursuit of salvation is not the entirety of Christian theology.(Alpha and Omega)
Also, I think it has been explained what the word generation means. It has many meanings. In this case it means the generation of the Jewish race. Which is still in this world.
Even if that is the interpretation, which seems highly unlikely, only one of those passages uses the phrase "generation." The rest are much more explicit - for example, Paul writing in Thessalonians that some of his followers will still be alive during the second coming and will ascend into heaven, or the verse in which Jesus advises his followers to flee from city to city if they are persecuted because they won't have even been able to visit all of them by the time of the second coming. Most incriminating of all is Mark 9:1, which states that some of those standing with Jesus at that time would still be alive at the time of the second coming.(Alpha and Omega)
Furthermore, do you not think it would be out of character for Adam to Jesus = 4000 years and the Jesus' death to 2nd coming >100?
Why is that out of character? It makes perfect sense that Jesus' birth would be the beginning of monumental events. Indeed, if you look at the lineage of Jesus' birth, it is quite nicely structured such that every 14 generations, a major event occurred - the Abrahamic covenant, the reign of King David, the exile to Babylon, and finally the birth of Jesus Christ (and presumably the second coming and apocalypse).You can't simply assume that there must be an "even spacing" between crucial biblical events, but even if there were, a late first/early second century second coming is in perfect alignment with them. And either way, it is no counterargument to the very explicit passages which state that the second coming will be within the lifetime of his followers.

 

[Jerusalem Junkie]

I believe he will return but not on a prediction by man........

 

[Mighty Bear]

(Lunar;52277)
A simple question.God, supposedly, is a being of infinite power and wisdom. What reason would he have to concern himself with creating a physical universe, and in particular, people? Why did he bother?
Maybe He wasn't content without it and we wouldn't be here without it.Revelation 21:7 KJV He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.John 16:26-27 ESV In that day you will ask in my name, and I do not say to you that I will ask the Father on your behalf; (27) for the Father himself loves you, because you have loved me and have believed that I came from God.

 

[Lunar]

(Mighty Bear;54243)
Maybe He wasn't content without it and we wouldn't be here without it.Revelation 21:7 KJV He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.John 16:26-27 ESV In that day you will ask in my name, and I do not say to you that I will ask the Father on your behalf; (27) for the Father himself loves you, because you have loved me and have believed that I came from God.
I don't understand what those quotes have to do with the thread topic.

 

[Mighty Bear]

(Lunar;54246)
(Mighty Bear;54243)
Maybe He wasn't content without it and we wouldn't be here without it.Revelation 21:7 KJV He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.John 16:26-27 ESV In that day you will ask in my name, and I do not say to you that I will ask the Father on your behalf; (27) for the Father himself loves you, because you have loved me and have believed that I came from God.
I don't understand what those quotes have to do with the thread topic.We call God our Father because that's what He is a father and we are His children.1 Corinthians 15:49 ESV (49) Just as we have borne the image of the man of dust, we shall also bear the image of the man of heaven.

 

[Lunar]

(Mighty Bear;54255)
We call God our Father because that's what He is a father and we are His children.
That still doesn't answer the question, though.The question is why God would feel the need for children. Parenting is an act of men, not Gods. What would make God think that he needed children, when he can simply will himself to be as satisfied and happy as he wants?