Why water into wine?

[GodsGrace]

It's probably going to be an exception or some other convoluted nonsensical explanation.


So when I pray to the Father and thank Him so much for sending His Son Jesus, do you not think that that is not giving Jesus some glory. I am acknowledging before the Father the wonderful sacrifice that He suffered for me, and that's not glorifying.
I once prayed to the Father to show me His Holiness. Do you know what He answered?
Look to Jesus in the gospels! He didn't say pray, He said look. Jesus and the Father are one. He who sees Jesus, sees the Father. Yes once again I believe in the Trinity. But the fullness of the Father was revealed in Jesus.
But the fact remains, Jesus plainly and specifically said to pray to the Father. And if you have a problem with it, don't take it up with me, take it up with Him.

I can't argue this with you.
It's persona between you and God.
All prayer is good.
I also don't pray to saints, either the official ones or any saint.

I must say, though, that I'm not sure on this.
A very much respected Brother said that one must decide WHERE he wants to go BEFORE dying. And you can't get more Catholic than him!

 

[aspen]

Sorry but I will never agree to communication with dead people alive on the other side. They have no power or authority to grant anything and they are a distraction to what should be reserved to the Father.

Well, I would have to agree with you - your understanding of what is going on is frightening and self serving!

I pray with living saints - my God is the God of the living. Paul was right when he said that nothing separates us from the love of God, certainly not death - in fact, we are still one body - the Bride of Christ.

 

[BreadOfLife]

Yes BoL
I will not argue this because, as I said, we cannot know everything on this side of life.
And most certainly it will be very different on the other side.

What do you think of this idea of mine:
We will be very joyful when we're with our Lord.
How can we be joyful if we see those that we love that will have been left behind?
Their problems, their sufferings?

How do you understand this?

Because we will be perfectly conformed to the will of God, which we can never be in our present state..

The same is true if a loved one doesn't make it to Heaven and we do.
We will be joyful anyway because we will see it as God does - not as our earthly selves.

 

[GodsGrace]

Because we will be perfectly conformed to the will of God, which we can never be in our present state..

The same is true if a loved one doesn't make it to Heaven and we do.
We will be joyful anyway because we will see it as God does - not as our earthly selves.

Very good point!
Thanks.
Leaving for a couple of days...

 

[BreadOfLife]

We are no even allowed to receive the Eucharist in orthodox churches. The Pope excommunicated the Ecumenical Patriarch of Constantinople in 1054 and he returned the favor by excommunicating the Pope. Why do you manipulate Church history for your own ends? You know, lying involves this sort of manipulation. When you tell people here who are not being manipulative (simply stating their opinion, right or wrong), you are failing to understand the concept.

And your ignorance precedes you.
We CAN receive the Eucharist in an Orthodox Church - NOT as the norm, but under special circumstances.

Not sure why you would call the words of St. John Paul the Great "manipulative."
HE said it - not me.

 

[BreadOfLife]

Very good point!
Thanks.
Leaving for a couple of days...

Have a safe trip.

 

[BreadOfLife]

No. There are antiCatholic people out there - they have ministeries devoted to it. James White is a perfect example and I used to debate him for years. Like you, he insulted, mocked, and scoffed and declared victory after every post.

The very fact that there are antiCatholic people out there makes it all the worse that you use the label so recklessly - you are giving people reason to hate Catholicism when perhaps they are indifferent

Wrong.
As I have said at least 100 times on this forum - I only accuse people of being anti-Catholic when they resort to telling LIES about what the Church teaches.

A person who merely disagrees or can't see things the Catholic way - like GodsGrace - is NOT anti-Catholic.
Try being honest, for a change, aspen . . .

 

[BreadOfLife]

You have got to be kidding me!
You are actually equating the praying made to God, for salvation, healing, graces, whatever, with the simple conversations that Jesus had with people when he questioned them, challenged them or asked them for something, and conclude that Jesus was praying to the people.
Do you ever read over your own posts to see how ridiculous and deluded they are?

You are taking those 135 verses where Jesus is asking people a simple question, Ex: Mark 8:20 "And when the seven among the four thousand, how many basketfuls of broken pieces took ye up? And they say unto him, Seven.", as He was praying to these people.
So when I asked my neighbour to borrow his lawnmower, I'm actually praying to him.
Oh! Precious neighbour of mine, how was the concert last night, Amen!

This would be laughable if it wasn't so sad.

It's only laughable to a spiritually prideful person like yourself because you refuse to acknowledge that the word "Pray" doesn;t ALWAYS mean "worship."

I have repeatedly presented the definition - and "worship" is a SECONDARY definition.
"Pray" is legal, juridical language that is used in court documents and police reports.

To deny that there are other uses for this word is to show that either, you're not very bright - or that you simply enjoy wallowing in vain denial . . .

 

[BreadOfLife]

Do you not read my posts, the verse are quote right at the beginning?

Refresh my memory.
Can you give me the actual verses of Scripture that you falsely claim the Catholic Church removed??

I guarantee you that I can produce them from a Catholic translation of Scripture.
will you then admit you made this up??

 

[BreadOfLife]

Are you infallible"

Nope - neither are YOU.

 

[perrero]

Well, I would have to agree with you - your understanding of what is going on is frightening and self serving!

I pray with living saints - my God is the God of the living. Paul was right when he said that nothing separates us from the love of God, certainly not death - in fact, we are still one body - the Bride of Christ.

Let's clarify
I pray TO the father.
I pray WITH the living saints.
I pray FOR the living saints, my neighbour, myself.

 

[BreadOfLife]

I agree with everything especially about how parents are SUPPOSED to raise up their children. They're the first catechists, but unfortunately, these days, this doesn't happen anymore.

I don't agree 100% with the circumcision comparison.
The Jews were circumcised because it was the sign of the Abrhamic Covenant.
Jews were supposed to be circumcised so that they could be shown to be separate from the gentiles and to show that they were the special people of God with whom the covenant was made.

So the circumcision made them JEWISH. But it did NOT save them.
People were saved by FAITH even in the O.T. No difference.

Jesus said to preach what He had taught and to baptize. Only an adult could learn what Jesus had taught.

As I said , I DO understand why the C C baptises babies but I can't agree. About 4 or 5 years ago it was my understanding that they were thinking of changing this but there was too much resistance from the members of the church.

Infants get baptized and then the parents don't even bring them to Mass as children.

To say nothing of imputed sin.
You want to get into that?
I could go on forever.

I really don't understand this post in light of the explanation I already gave you.

Everything you said (in RED) is also true for Baptism.
It sets us apart and shows that we are part of the NEW Covenant.
It makes us Christian. Baptism, however, washes away your sins - it doesn't simply remove dirt from your body.

1 Pet. 3:21
It is the baptism corresponding to this water which SAVES YOU now -- not the washing off of physical dirt but the pledge of a good conscience given to God through the resurrection of Jesus Christ

 

[BreadOfLife]

exactly the harlot church system all of it.

Now, you're speaking of your own . . .

 

[BreadOfLife]

Sorry but I will never agree to communication with dead people alive on the other side. They have no power or authority to grant anything and they are a distraction to what should be reserved to the Father.

Soooooo, what's going on in Rev. 5:8??

 

[perrero]

Nope - neither are YOU.

Are you not guided by the Holy Spirit like the Pope?
Why is he infallible and not you or me?
When Jesus said that the Spirit will guide you in all truth? Was He speaking of the Pope only, who didn't exist at the time? Or was it to all that believe?

 

[aspen]

And your ignorance precedes you.
We CAN receive the Eucharist in an Orthodox Church - NOT as the norm, but under special circumstances.

Not sure why you would call the words of St. John Paul the Great "manipulative."
HE said it - not me.

1. Name a special circumstance.
2. You are manipulating Church history for your own purpose - this includes leaving out details and filling space with ad hominem

 

[perrero]

Soooooo, what's going on in Rev. 5:8??

24 elders (we don't know who they are) have vials filled with prayers OF the saints (prayers that were directed to whom we don't know).
But it is safe to interpret that these prayers were directed to God because He is the only One worthy of such and is the only One with Authority and Power to grant their petition.

 

[BreadOfLife]

1. Name a special circumstance.
2. You are manipulating Church history for your own purpose - this includes leaving out details and filling space with ad hominem

1. A person who is sick or dying - or even stranded somewhere and has no access to a Catholic Church can receive from an Orthodox Church because it is a validly consecrated Eucharist.
2. Instead of making unfounded accusation that I am "manipulating" history - why don't you SHOW me with some actual evidence??

 

[BreadOfLife]

Are you not guided by the Holy Spirit like the Pope?
Why is he infallible and not you or me?
When Jesus said that the Spirit will guide you in all truth? Was He speaking of the Pope only, who didn't exist at the time? Or was it to all that believe?

During the Last Supper, in John 16:12-15, Jesus was instructing the LEADERS of His Church. He gave the promise that the Holy Spirit would guide the CHURCH to all truth - NOT the individual. If this were the case, you wouldn't have tens of thousands of bickering Protestant sects teaching different doctrines and ALL claiming to have the "Truth."

Peter was the ONLY one singled out by Jesus and given the Keys to the Kingdom of Heaven - NOT the other Eleven - and NOT every individual.

 

[BreadOfLife]

24 elders (we don't know who they are) have vials filled with prayers OF the saints (prayers that were directed to whom we don't know).
But it is safe to interpret that these prayers were directed to God because He is the only One worthy of such and is the only One with Authority and Power to grant their petition.

Then why are they needed to "take" our prayers TO Him?? Can you explain that??
God can see and hear everything.

The only logical explanation is that they were asked by those on earth to take our prayers to God.
That's why this has been the teaching of the Church since the beginning - for 2000 years.