Why water into wine?

[GodsGrace]

Like now you are telling me what I believe and what I do not. Are you still using that crystal ball?
I pray to the FATHER because Jesus said to do so. If anything I am being obedient to what He taught.
How you would think that I'm denying the deity of Jesus by praying to the Father tells me how twisted your conclusion can be. It's like when you can't win an argument you have to bring foolish accusations without foundation.

What do you mean it is no different to ask for the saints to pray for us than it is to ask our neighbour to pray for us. My neighbour is ALIVE on earth and your saints have DIED and gone to heaven. Seems to me there is a big diference, ALIVE vs DEAD, on EARTH vs in HEAVEN. For you to interpret James 5:16 as telling people they can request prayers of the saints (who had not yet died) incuding praying for one another, is ridiculous. James, a jew, would never suggest to praying or asking the dead to pray for them.
Your understanding of scripture and logic is seriously giving me a headache.
I don't think I have ever encountered someone so endoctrinated.

BTW, WHEN YOU START CHARGING PEOPLE OF LYING, BECAUSE THEY HAVE A DIFFERENT OPINION OR INTERPRETATION THAN YOURS, THIS IS SETTING YOURSELF UP AS GOD. SERIOUSLY GET OFF YOUR PEDESTAL.

Hi Perrero,
I'm not speaking to paying to saints. The C C believes in the communion of saints.
It's a beautiful thought. It just means that all believers are one happy, big family.
Of course the problem I have with this is that God is omnipresent and I don't understand how saints (all dead people in heaven) could be omnipresent, which they would have to be to hear people's prayers, but I've never been to the other side (happily!) and I don't claim to understand everything.

However, it does interest me as to why you don't pray to Jesus. Do you know that some people pray to the Holy Spirit at times?

I don't argue this with you, it's a personal choice. It would just be interesting to understand why. If you say that it's because Jesus said to pray to the Father in Mathew 6:9, then BoL is correct is saying that it's denying the deity of Jesus.
The Trinity is separate by attributes of work for each individual person, however, they are all ONE and GOD.

It is NOT one God in three people.
It is three people in ONE GOD.

 

[GodsGrace]

If I am not mistaken this is the 4th time I have mentioned the fact that the C church has REMOVED, DELETED, DISCARDED, WIPED OUT, OMITTED the verses 4-5 from Exodus and 8-9 from Deu. 5. Which you have no answer for.
You accuse another person of altering scripture but you're not accountable yourself for the above.
It's not about the coveting issue, or whether there are 10 or 20 commandments.
The C church has REMOVED those verses because it goes against the idolatry within the church. This one reason I call it a cult.
For that matter praying to the dead is of the occult.

I had asked you to please explain the above to me and you never did.
I looked it up myself and I can only assume (something I don't like to do but you left me no choice) that you're saying that the Catholic Church makes statues of idols and prays to them.

Didn't Moses make a representation of a snake? To be held up to cure people of snake bites. Just a Jesus had to be held up to cure us of our sin.

And weren't some cherubin (I think) made to be put on top of the Ark of the Covenant?

What's the difference?

From what I understand statues were made in churches because people were kind of in need of something before their eyes that they could see. I don't see so many statues in Catholic churches anymore. Maybe people are more well-read these days.

IOW, are they praying to THE STATUE, or who it represents. That's my point.

 

[mjrhealth]

How could it not be from God if it's the first Church ever??

No it was not, here where a bunch of them they where not catholic, As for "church" it is not an institution" it is a gathering of people. You really should look it up. Was A complete mistranslation used to justify religion. And no it is not from God, what part of priests raping children, cardinal selling drugs and having homosexual sex , what part of that is from God??? You know this bit, come out of her my people.... You really should think about who your God is.

 

[GodsGrace]

No it was not, here where a bunch of them they where not catholic, As for "church" it is not an institution" it is a gathering of people. You really should look it up. Was A complete mistranslation used to justify religion. And no it is not from God, what part of priests raping children, cardinal selling drugs and having homosexual sex , what part of that is from God??? You know this bit, come out of her my people.... You really should think about who your God is.

MJ
You're Always teling me to look up stuff.
How do you know I already haven't?

The first Christians were Jewish converts. They were called Jewish converts.
Paul was on his way to Damascus to round up both men and women who belonged to THE WAY, which was how Jewish converts were called by then.

Then the disciples of Jesus were first called CHRITIANS at Antioch. Maybe 10 years after Jesus ascension.

As for church it is two things:

1. church: A bldg. An institution. Necessary for the gathering of believers,
for receiving communion and for baptising believers and for preaching and teaching and Learning.

2. Church: The Body of Chirst. An invisible church made up of all believers in all the world.

3. All those horrible things you mention are done by the human person, NOT THE CHURCH OF GOD. The church is pure.

BTW, we protestants have nothing to be totally proud of.
Man is a sinner.
The church bldg is not
and the CHUCH is not.

 

[BreadOfLife]

Right, I forgot.....anyone who has heard of the Vatican and doesn't bowed down immediately is antiCatholic. You know, I continue to wonder why hyperCalvinists run around molesting the goats by telling them about Jesus and demanding fealty from them; despite the fact they are destine to burn for eternity......now, I am wondering why any educated Catholic would share Catholic ideas with separated brothers and sisters? The result appears to be the same, according to people of your ilk - telling them the 'truth' about Catholicism demands fealty or damnation

Hank WAS anti-Catholic - and admits to it now.

I used to listen to his show every day on the way home from work. His guests would usually include other virulent anti-Catholics like James White and John MacArthur. Praise God that Hank has seen the error of his ways and is no longer the man he was before.

Hiding your head in the sand and pretending that there is no such thing as anti-Catholicism may work you YOU - but it's nothing more denial.

 

[GodsGrace]

Hank WAS anti-Catholic - and admits to it now. I listened to his show every day on the way home from work.
His guests would usually include other virulent anti-Catholics like James White and John MacArthur.

Hiding your head in the sand and pretending that there is no such thing as anti-Catholicism may work you YOU - but it's nothing more denial.

Is James White the Calvanist?
I don't really know these guys and don't care to, but I do hear about them.
If HE IS the Calvinist, HE has nothing to say to ANYBODY since HE believes in a God that doesn't even exist!

 

[BreadOfLife]

Hi BoL

I'd like to add this:

In Italian the title of Pope is : Pontefice

Ponte means bridge.

We could say that the Pope is the bridge between the people and God, thus his title of Vicar of Jesus, or representative of Jesus.

I think Pontefice is a very beautiful title for him.

Yes, Pontefice comes from the Latin Pontifex, which means bridge or bridge builder.

 

[BreadOfLife]

You know BoL, when you read the CCC Baptism sounds very beautiful but it also sounds like it would require an adult to understand what's going on.

I do know why Catholics baptise babies. To remove original sin. God cannot stand to be in the presence of sin, and what if the baby should die and is not baptised?
This concept has changed recently and the Church now teaches that if an unbaptized infant dies we must trust the mercy and just character of God.

My problem with regeneration is that it seems to me that a born again person is noticeably regenerated even BEFORE baptism. Their life changes when they ACCEPT their Christianity.

I'm sure you must know that even in the C C it's taught that even though a person is baptized as an infant, each person must ACCEPT that baptism at some point in their life.

The C C DOES teach that baptism alone will not save a person.

John the Baptist said the he came to offer a baptism of repentance and Jesus would come to offer a baptism of fire --- the Holy Spirit.

IOW, one is born again and regenerated at believing and then receives power at baptism, for instance to witness or live a life closer to the Holy Spirit.

I know you can't agree with this...
Just my thoughts.

No - I DO agree.
This is what should happen to a born again person. However - ALL newly Baptized people need guidance.
Paul guided Silas and Timothy, Barnabas guided Mark and so on.

Being born again doesn't make you an automatic "Super Christian". You will still sin, you will still stumble and you will still get things wrong if you're not educated.

As for Infant Baptism - I will never understand Protestant objections to this Apostolic Tradition.
Babies entered into the Covenant with God at EIGHT days old. did they have a choice?? Were they able to make a Covenant with God? The answer is NO. They were guided by their parents and/or guardians to be raised in the faith of their fathers. They became members of the Family of God - just as babies now become members at Baptism.

Paul compares Baptism in the New Covenant with Circumcision in the Old Covenant.
Likewise, the Catholic Church teaches that infant Baptism in the New Covenant is done so by the faith of the parents - to raise the child according to the New Covenant.

Paul uses the terms, “circumcision of the heart” and the “circumcision of Christ” (Rom. 2:29, Col. 2:12-17) to describe the reality of circumcision being a spiritually inward act, not merely an outward sign. The Old Testament type that was circumcision is now Baptism.

 

[BreadOfLife]

Is James White the Calvanist?
I don't really know these guys and don't care to, but I do hear about them.
If HE IS the Calvinist, HE has nothing to say to ANYBODY since HE believes in a God that doesn't even exist!

Yes, James White is a Calvinist - and one of the nation's leading anti-Catholic evangelists.

He no longer has anything do do with his sister, Patty Patrick Bonds, since she converted to the Catholic Church.
You can read her conversion story here: http://www.biblicalcatholic.com/apologetics/s2.htm

 

[BreadOfLife]

Like now you are telling me what I believe and what I do not. Are you still using that crystal ball?
I pray to the FATHER because Jesus said to do so. If anything I am being obedient to what He taught.
How you would think that I'm denying the deity of Jesus by praying to the Father tells me how twisted your conclusion can be. It's like when you can't win an argument you have to bring foolish accusations without foundation.

What do you mean it is no different to ask for the saints to pray for us than it is to ask our neighbour to pray for us. My neighbour is ALIVE on earth and your saints have DIED and gone to heaven. Seems to me there is a big diference, ALIVE vs DEAD, on EARTH vs in HEAVEN. For you to interpret James 5:16 as telling people they can request prayers of the saints (who had not yet died) incuding praying for one another, is ridiculous. James, a jew, would never suggest to praying or asking the dead to pray for them.
Your understanding of scripture and logic is seriously giving me a headache.
I don't think I have ever encountered someone so endoctrinated.

BTW, WHEN YOU START CHARGING PEOPLE OF LYING, BECAUSE THEY HAVE A DIFFERENT OPINION OR INTERPRETATION THAN YOURS, THIS IS SETTING YOURSELF UP AS GOD. SERIOUSLY GET OFF YOUR PEDESTAL.

I never accuse anybody of "lying" simply because they have a different opinion.
I accuse people of lying - when they LIE.

Yes - Jesus taught us to pray to the Father - but He never said that we were NOT to pray to Him. Jesus IS God and, therefore is worthy of prayers of worship, petition and thanksgiving.

The saints in Heaven are NOT worthy of worship - but they CAN be asked for prayers. To say that they can't pray for us because they are "dead" is to be ignorant of Scripture.

Not only are they NOT dead - they are MORE alive that YOU are because they have been made perfect and righteous in Christ. YOU are still a flawed, sinful human being yet people ask YOU to pray for them.

Oh, by the way - Jesus himself prayed to others at least 135 times in the Gospel.
Every time he ASKED something of somebody - He was PRAYING to them:
Matt. 5:46, Matt. 5:47, Matt. 6:27, Matt. 6:28, Matt. 7:3, Matt. 7:16, Matt. 8:26, Matt. 9:4, Matt. 9:5, Matt. 9:15, Matt. 9:28, Matt. 11:7, Matt. 11:16, Matt. 12:11, Matt. 12:29, Matt. 12:34, Matt. 12:48, Matt. 14:31, Matt. 15:3, Matt. 15:34, Matt. 16:9, Matt. 16:13, Matt. 16:15, Matt. 16:26, Matt. 17:17, Matt. 17:25, Matt. 18:12, Matt. 19:17, Matt. 20:21, Matt. 20:22, Matt. 20:32, Matt. 21:25, Matt. 21:28, Matt. 21:42, Matt. 22:18, Matt. 22:42, Matt. 23:17-19, Matt. 23:33, Matt. 26:10, Matt. 26:40, Matt. 26:53, Matt. 26:54, Matt. 26:55, Matt. 27:46, Mark 2:8, Mark 4:21, Mark 4:30, Mark 4:40, Mark 5:9, Mark 5:30, Mark 5:39, Mark 7:18, Mark 7:18, Mark 8:12, Mark 8:17-18, Mark 8:19, Mark 8:20, Mark 8:21, Mark 8:23, Mark 9:12, Mark 9:33, Mark 9:50, Mark 10:3, Mark 10:18, Mark 10:51, Mark 12:15, Mark 13:2, Mark 14:37, Mark 14:37, Luke 2:49, Luke 2:49, Luke 5:22, Luke 5:23, Luke 6:46, Luke 8:25, Luke 8:30, Luke 8:45, Luke 10:15, Luke 10:26, Luke 10:36, Luke 11:40, Luke 12:14-15, Luke 12:25, Luke 12:57, Luke 14:31, Luke 14:34, Luke 15:4, Luke 15:8, Luke 16:11, Luke 17:17, Luke 18:7, Luke 18:8, Luke 22:27, Luke 22:46, Luke 23:31, Luke 24:17, Luke 24:19, Luke 24:26, Luke 24:38, Luke 24:41, John 1:38, John 2:4, John 3:10, John 3:12, John 4:7, John 5:6, John 5:44, John 5:47, John 6:5, John 6:61, John 6:62, John 6:67, John 6:70, John 7:19, John7:19, John 7:23, John 8:10, John 8:43, John 8:46, John 8:46, John 10:36, John 11:9, John 11:26, John 11:33, John 13:12, John 14:9, John 18:4,7, John 18:11, John 18:34, John 18:21, John 18:23, John 20:15, John 21:5, John 21:17, John 21:22

 

[BreadOfLife]

I knew you would use that verse. It's the only one to support that foolish theology.
This has to do with the judgment of WORKS and has nothing to do with salvation because the sacrifice of Christ is sufficient for our salvation.
He who believes has eternal Life. Which means I am walking right now in eternal life, I do not need any other purification for my sins.
2 Corinthians 5:21
For our sake he made him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.
Are you denying this verse? Are you saying that the righteousness of God is not good enough to enter heaven?
I the OT and the NT you only need one lamb for the forgiveness of sin, nothing else is needed, not works, not purgatory, not nothing.

WRONG.

There are MANY verses that describe God handing out his justice as a Refiner. A refiner is someone who takes the raw material for metal and actually gleans the gold and silver and iron from that material - and he does it with FIRE. We see in Malalchi 3:3, Jeremiah 6:27-30, Ezekiel 22:18, Psalm 119:119, Psalm 37:20, Zech. 13:9, Isa 48:10, where God is the Refiner.

1 Cor. 3:11-15 is ALSO about God as the Great Refiner - and it IS about judgement and salvation:
If it is burned up, the builder will suffer loss but yet will be SAVED—even though only as one escaping through the flames.

ONLY the blood of the Lamb can save us - IF we are obedient.
Our obedience IS our works.

 

[BreadOfLife]

In this case it is the disobedience that causes rebuke or loss not baptism. You say it yourself it is the REFUSAL (Disobedience) that's the problem.
Baptism is simply not a precondition to salvation.
You said your piece and I've said mine, now give up going around in circles.

Jesus Himself said that unless a person is BAPTIZED, he cannot be saved (Mark 16:16, John 3:5).

I can't, for the life of me, figure out why you reject the words of Christ . . .

 

[BreadOfLife]

If I am not mistaken this is the 4th time I have mentioned the fact that the C church has REMOVED, DELETED, DISCARDED, WIPED OUT, OMITTED the verses 4-5 from Exodus and 8-9 from Deu. 5. Which you have no answer for.
You accuse another person of altering scripture but you're not accountable yourself for the above.
It's not about the coveting issue, or whether there are 10 or 20 commandments.
The C church has REMOVED those verses because it goes against the idolatry within the church. This one reason I call it a cult.
For that matter praying to the dead is of the occult.

The Catholic Church has never "removed" a single verse from Scripture, so I don't know why you keep making this asinine claim.
Tell me which verses the Church "removed" and I will show them to you - from a CATHOLIC Bible.

And you STILL haven't been able to refute anything I said about the Ten Commandments. Angry ad hominems are NOT evidence.
When you are ready to have a grown up discussion, where you present evidence to refute what I presented - then let me know . . .

 

[BreadOfLife]

But he is said to be infallible, n'est-ce pas?

Only in matters of teaching faith and morals.
The Pope is infallible in teaching these matters ONLY because he is guided by the Holy Spirit.

He is not impeccable.

 

[BreadOfLife]

No, dont have an issue with catholics, I know of no one who does, it is "catholism" that is the issue. Besides I was born and raised a catholic, so im not blind to what goes on. Cant be a part of that which is not from God,

And, as they say - a little knowledge is a dangerous thing.
In YOUR case - very little knowledge is even more dangerous.

From our conversations is it absolutely clear that if you WERE once a Catholic - you know next to nothing of the faith you abandoned. You get it wrong EVERY time. You, like every other ex-Catholic I ever met left because of an abject ignorance of their faith.

 

[BreadOfLife]

Funny thing they both kill people, as I said so many read it and still dont know Jesus. And my other post still stands, you replaced Jesus.

Another nonsensical non-answer . . .

 

[BreadOfLife]

Hank Hannegraf still believes the words in that quote; yet he did not join the Catholic Church

No - Hank chose to join the Orthodox Church, which, although is schism from the Catholic Church is not Protestant.
St. John Paul the Great called the Catholic and Orthodox churches the right and left lungs of Christ's Church.

 

[BreadOfLife]

No it was not, here where a bunch of them they where not catholic, As for "church" it is not an institution" it is a gathering of people. You really should look it up. Was A complete mistranslation used to justify religion. And no it is not from God, what part of priests raping children, cardinal selling drugs and having homosexual sex , what part of that is from God??? You know this bit, come out of her my people.... You really should think about who your God is.

And what part of Protestant pastors raping children, swindling money from congregants and carousing with hookers is from God??

There are PLENTY of sinners in every church.
The Church was established by sinners - they were called "Apostles".

The one thing that angry, ignorant people like you will never understand is that Christ's Church is NOT a museum of saints - but a hospital for sinners . . .

 

[BreadOfLife]

Of course the problem I have with this is that God is omnipresent and I don't understand how saints (all dead people in heaven) could be omnipresent, which they would have to be to hear people's prayers, but I've never been to the other side (happily!) and I don't claim to understand everything.

A saint in Heaven does not have to be "omnipresent" to hear the prayers of a limited number of people.
Omnipresent means present everywhere - at ALL times. Remember - whatever abilities we wil have in Heaven are ONLY due to the grace and power of Almighty God.

In heaven we are not the same limited earthly beings with the same earthly limitations.
To be perfect in Christ is to have power beyond your wildest dreams.

1 Cor. 2:9
However, as it is written: "What no eye has seen, what no ear has heard, and what no human mind has conceived" -- the things God has prepared for those who love him.

1 John 3:2
Dear friends, now we are children of God, and what we will be has not yet been made known. But we know that when Christ appears, we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is.

 

[GodsGrace]

A saint in Heaven does not have to be "omnipresent" to hear the prayers of a limited number of people.
Omnipresent means present everywhere - at ALL times. Remember - whatever abilities we wil have in Heaven are ONLY due to the grace and power of Almighty God.

In heaven we are not the same limited earthly beings with the same earthly limitations.
To be perfect in Christ is to have power beyond your wildest dreams.

1 Cor. 2:9
However, as it is written: "What no eye has seen, what no ear has heard, and what no human mind has conceived" -- the things God has prepared for those who love him.

1 John 3:2
Dear friends, now we are children of God, and what we will be has not yet been made known. But we know that when Christ appears, we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is.

Yes BoL
I will not argue this because, as I said, we cannot know everything on this side of life.
And most certainly it will be very different on the other side.

What do you think of this idea of mine:
We will be very joyful when we're with our Lord.
How can we be joyful if we see those that we love that will have been left behind?
Their problems, their sufferings?

How do you understand this?