Why water into wine?

[GodsGrace]

Jesus ALSO said that you cannot enter the Kingdom of Heaven unless you are born of Water and spirit (Baptism - John 3:5).
It's not merely "symbolic" as most Protestants believe - but regenerative.

Baptism isn't a choice for Christians - but a requirement (Mark 6:16, Acts 2:38).

You know BoL, when you read the CCC Baptism sounds very beautiful but it also sounds like it would require an adult to understand what's going on.

I do know why Catholics baptise babies. To remove original sin. God cannot stand to be in the presence of sin, and what if the baby should die and is not baptised?
This concept has changed recently and the Church now teaches that if an unbaptized infant dies we must trust the mercy and just character of God.

My problem with regeneration is that it seems to me that a born again person is noticeably regenerated even BEFORE baptism. Their life changes when they ACCEPT their Christianity.

I'm sure you must know that even in the C C it's taught that even though a person is baptized as an infant, each person must ACCEPT that baptism at some point in their life.

The C C DOES teach that baptism alone will not save a person.

John the Baptist said the he came to offer a baptism of repentance and Jesus would come to offer a baptism of fire --- the Holy Spirit.

IOW, one is born again and regenerated at believing and then receives power at baptism, for instance to witness or live a life closer to the Holy Spirit.

I know you can't agree with this...
Just my thoughts.

 

[aspen]

I considered joining the Orthodox Church before joining the Catholic Church - I found just the opposite as you did regarding organization - their last agreed upon council was in 787 AD. The Primates tend to squabble with each other, aligning along cultural/nationalistic lines. I will always love Orthodox prayer, but the splintered cultural division really made it seem Protestant to me. I still love my Protestant roots, but I was looking for unity when I joined the Catholic Church

 

[GodsGrace]

I considered joining the Orthodox Church before joining the Catholic Church - I found just opposite regarding organization - there last agreed upon council was in 787 AD. The Primates tend to squabble with each other, aligning with cultural/nationalistic lines. I will always love Orthodox prayer, but the splintered cultural division really made it seem Protestant to me. I still love my Protestant roots, but I was looking for unity when I joined the Catholic Church

I'm not sure you're speaking to me...

But I just want to say that if you found unity, I'm truly happy for you.
I'm having difficulty finding it anywhere these days.
I trust in Jesus and am hanging on tight.
That's the best we could do.

 

[aspen]

You know BoL, when you read the CCC Baptism sounds very beautiful but it also sounds like it would require an adult to understand what's going on.

I do know why Catholics baptise babies. To remove original sin. God cannot stand to be in the presence of sin, and what if the baby should die and is not baptised?
This concept has changed recently and the Church now teaches that if an unbaptized infant dies we must trust the mercy and just character of God.

My problem with regeneration is that it seems to me that a born again person is noticeably regenerated even BEFORE baptism. Their life changes when they ACCEPT their Christianity.

I'm sure you must know that even in the C C it's taught that even though a person is baptized as an infant, each person must ACCEPT that baptism at some point in their life.

The C C DOES teach that baptism alone will not save a person.

John the Baptist said the he came to offer a baptism of repentance and Jesus would come to offer a baptism of fire --- the Holy Spirit.

IOW, one is born again and regenerated at believing and then receives power at baptism, for instance to witness or live a life closer to the Holy Spirit.

I know you can't agree with this...
Just my thoughts.

Yes, CC theology tends to be elegant, but out of reach for the average parishioner - Conservative Protestantism attracts young Christians who find Catholicism inaccessible; however, when people get tired of repeating a wedding ceremony and calling it a marriage, they return to Catholicism or join it.

The endless 'alter calls' and asking 'Jesus in your heart' and repeated 'do overs' were really stifling for me - I hit the spiritual ceiling and I needed to find the spiritual giants that were not apart of the Protestant Churches I attended.

 

[aspen]

I'm not sure you're speaking to me...

But I just want to say that if you found unity, I'm truly happy for you.
I'm having difficulty finding it anywhere these days.
I trust in Jesus and am hanging on tight.
That's the best we could do.

I've found unity as far as I can on earth, I suppose.
It is hard to find, I agree and Catholicism has many deficits in this area, too. I was a bit of a zealot when I first joined - after 17 years, I have mellowed.
Jesus is the answer

 

[mjrhealth]

When someone cannot reply with facts,
they resort to saying silly things.

It is a fact, are you too a catholic, you are beginning to sound very much like one. There are these places called libraries you should visit one, there are lots of facts, some just deny them.

 

[GodsGrace]

I've found unity as far as I can on earth, I suppose.
It is hard to find, I agree and Catholicism has many deficits in this area, too. I was a bit of a zealot when I first joined - after 17 years, I have mellowed.
Jesus is the answer

Agreed.
Most parishioners have never read the bible (although that's changing) let alone the CCC which is where all the beliefs are. The first hundred or so paragraphs should be read by EVERYONE. CS Lewis explains Christianity really well in Mere Christianity, but the CCC does a good job of it too.

Catholicism works if you become very involved in the Church, otherwise, it's just a ritual of going to Mass on Sunday, and whoever thought to have Mass on Saturday? Bad idea, IMO.

The Protestant churches are good because you hear about Jesus right away and it's explained how He has to become a part of your life. But the arguing about what verses mean becomes crazy at times. Maybe there DOES have to be someone that REALLY knows what they mean?

I was Catholic and then became born again (many years ago) and there was nothing for me in the C C. After a few years I left to join a Nazarene chuch and was happy there. What I know I learned in churches. I feel this is the best way to learn but Others tell me they learn by the Holy Spirit, to which I reply to please explain to me why He doesn't teach everyone the same doctrine!

So, yeah. Let's depend on our Lord who is the head of the Church, with a captial C, and try to treat each other well as we discuss.

 

[GodsGrace]

It is a fact, are you too a catholic, you are beginning to sound very much like one. There are these places called libraries you should visit one, there are lots of facts, some just deny them.

What's a Library?
And what would be the problem if I WAS a Catholic?
Would you stop loving me?

 

[aspen]

Agreed.
Most parishioners have never read the bible (although that's changing) let alone the CCC which is where all the beliefs are. The first hundred or so paragraphs should be read by EVERYONE. CS Lewis explains Christianity really well in Mere Christianity, but the CCC does a good job of it too.

Catholicism works if you become very involved in the Church, otherwise, it's just a ritual of going to Mass on Sunday, and whoever thought to have Mass on Saturday? Bad idea, IMO.

The Protestant churches are good because you hear about Jesus right away and it's explained how He has to become a part of your life. But the arguing about what verses mean becomes crazy at times. Maybe there DOES have to be someone that REALLY knows what they mean?

I was Catholic and then became born again (many years ago) and there was nothing for me in the C C. After a few years I left to join a Nazarene chuch and was happy there. What I know I learned in churches. I feel this is the best way to learn but Others tell me they learn by the Holy Spirit, to which I reply to please explain to me why He doesn't teach everyone the same doctrine!

So, yeah. Let's depend on our Lord who is the head of the Church, with a captial C, and try to treat each other well as we discuss.

Yeah, we are likeminded on this.
You've gotta go where Christ leads you; as long as we keep doctrine as a hobby and loving God and Neighbor as our life's work, I think we are practicing our sanctification

 

[mjrhealth]

What's a Library?
And what would be the problem if I WAS a Catholic?
Would you stop loving me?

No, dont have an issue with catholics, I know of no one who does, it is "catholism" that is the issue. Besides I was born and raised a catholic, so im not blind to what goes on. Cant be a part of that which is not from God,

 

[Helen]

@GodsGrace

Did you ever find the little faint arrow thingy that takes you to the original post?
mjrhealths post is above mine here.

If you look at it...you see ( level with the top of his avatar )a light grey bar.
in the bar it says .. GodsGrace said:
If you hover over the right side of the word said...next to the : it will become a hand.
Click that 'hand' and it will take you back to your post.
This works for everyone's post that is quoted, even if they posted three pages back.

It is really helpful.

 

[perrero]

It makes you hypocritical because by NOT praying to Jesus - you are denying His deity.

As for Catholics asking the saints on Heaven to pray FOR us - it is NO different than YOU asking a friend or loved on to pray for YOU. James 5:16 admonishes us to pray for each other - yet YOU think this goes against what Jesus said??
RUBBISH.

Finally - as to your asinine claim that Catholics "worship" statues and Mary and the saints - you know better than to make this false claim. ASKING them to pray FOR us is not "worship" - and LYING about this is a sin . . .

Like now you are telling me what I believe and what I do not. Are you still using that crystal ball?
I pray to the FATHER because Jesus said to do so. If anything I am being obedient to what He taught.
How you would think that I'm denying the deity of Jesus by praying to the Father tells me how twisted your conclusion can be. It's like when you can't win an argument you have to bring foolish accusations without foundation.

What do you mean it is no different to ask for the saints to pray for us than it is to ask our neighbour to pray for us. My neighbour is ALIVE on earth and your saints have DIED and gone to heaven. Seems to me there is a big diference, ALIVE vs DEAD, on EARTH vs in HEAVEN. For you to interpret James 5:16 as telling people they can request prayers of the saints (who had not yet died) incuding praying for one another, is ridiculous. James, a jew, would never suggest to praying or asking the dead to pray for them.
Your understanding of scripture and logic is seriously giving me a headache.
I don't think I have ever encountered someone so endoctrinated.

BTW, WHEN YOU START CHARGING PEOPLE OF LYING, BECAUSE THEY HAVE A DIFFERENT OPINION OR INTERPRETATION THAN YOURS, THIS IS SETTING YOURSELF UP AS GOD. SERIOUSLY GET OFF YOUR PEDESTAL.

 

[perrero]

WRONG.

1 Cor. 3:11-15
For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ. If anyone builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, 13 their work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each person’s work. If what has been built survives, the builder will receive a reward. If it is burned up, the builder will suffer loss but yet will be SAVED—even though only as one escaping through the flames.

Paul describes this process in 1 Cor. 3:12-15. Notice, that in this passage - he talks about the fact that the person will SUFFER loss, but will eventually be SAVED.
Here are the Biblical facts:

1. This can't be Heaven because there is NO suffering in Heaven.
2. This can't be Hell because those in Hell can never be saved.
3. This is describing a THIRD state - that of final cleansing before entering Heaven.

I knew you would use that verse. It's the only one to support that foolish theology.
This has to do with the judgment of WORKS and has nothing to do with salvation because the sacrifice of Christ is sufficient for our salvation.
He who believes has eternal Life. Which means I am walking right now in eternal life, I do not need any other purification for my sins.
2 Corinthians 5:21
For our sake he made him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.
Are you denying this verse? Are you saying that the righteousness of God is not good enough to enter heaven?
I the OT and the NT you only need one lamb for the forgiveness of sin, nothing else is needed, not works, not purgatory, not nothing.

 

[perrero]

Wrong.

It's not about never having had the opportunity to be baptized.
It is the REFUSAL of Baptism that would condemn a person because that is NOT the "obedience" you just spoke of.

It ain't that complicated . . .

In this case it is the disobedience that causes rebuke or loss not baptism. You say it yourself it is the REFUSAL (Disobedience) that's the problem.
Baptism is simply not a precondition to salvation.
You said your piece and I've said mine, now give up going around in circles.

 

[perrero]

And instead of simply responding angrily and ignorantly - why don't you try DEBUNKING what I said?? Don't just call it hogwash until you can refute it.

REFUTE the linguistic evidence I presented about the different uses of "coveting" in the original Hebrew Chamad (תחמד) vs. 'Avah (תתאוה).
REFUTE the fact that there are more than 10 commandments - IF you count all of the "shalts" and "shalt nots".
REFUTE the fact that God's prohibition against creating images is against the WORSHIP of them as idols and NOT the creation of them.

Instead of just calling me "slick" - PROVE your point that I'm wrong . . .

If I am not mistaken this is the 4th time I have mentioned the fact that the C church has REMOVED, DELETED, DISCARDED, WIPED OUT, OMITTED the verses 4-5 from Exodus and 8-9 from Deu. 5. Which you have no answer for.
You accuse another person of altering scripture but you're not accountable yourself for the above.
It's not about the coveting issue, or whether there are 10 or 20 commandments.
The C church has REMOVED those verses because it goes against the idolatry within the church. This one reason I call it a cult.
For that matter praying to the dead is of the occult.

 

[perrero]

The term "vicar" simply means chief representative or "chief agent".

The official titles of the Pope are (and "Pope" is not one of them)

• Bishop of Rome.
• Vicar of Jesus Christ
• Successor of the Prince of the Apostles.
• Supreme Pontiff of the Universal Church.
• Primate of Italy.
• Archbishop and Metropolitan of the Roman Province.
• Sovereign of the State of Vatican City.
• Servant of the Servants of God.
  
  Incidentally, the term "Pontiff" simply means "bridge-builder".
  You REALLY need to do your homework before responding . . .

But he is said to be infallible, n'est-ce pas?

 

[aspen]

But he is said to be infallible, n'est-ce pas?

I am sure you understand the parameters of infallibility according to the CCC

 

[aspen]

When someone cannot reply with facts,
they resort to saying silly things.

Nothing wrong with silly. Mean, is a different story

 

[GodsGrace]

@GodsGrace

Did you ever find the little faint arrow thingy that takes you to the original post?
mjrhealths post is above mine here.

If you look at it...you see ( level with the top of his avatar )a light grey bar.
in the bar it says .. GodsGrace said:
If you hover over the right side of the word said...next to the : it will become a hand.
Click that 'hand' and it will take you back to your post.
This works for everyone's post that is quoted, even if they posted three pages back.

It is really helpful.

I found it!
The reason I couldn't find it is because it's invisibe !! Go figure.
Totally by mistake I was scrolling and saw the "hand" and realized there had to be something there and then realized it was the upward pointing Arrow I've been looking for.

Thanks! This is really helpful to remember what you had said.

 

[GodsGrace]

No, dont have an issue with catholics, I know of no one who does, it is "catholism" that is the issue. Besides I was born and raised a catholic, so im not blind to what goes on. Cant be a part of that which is not from God,

How could it not be from God if it's the first Church ever??

I say MEN messed it up, just like we seem to be able to mess everything up.
Or should I say through the influence of the evil one. By "men" I mean "man".
Sorry 'bout that.