Why water into wine?

[GodsGrace]

Only in matters of teaching faith and morals.
The Pope is infallible in teaching these matters ONLY because he is guided by the Holy Spirit.

He is not impeccable.

I find it very interesting that, although Amoris Laetitia is only an exhortation and does not fall under the ex-cathedra title, Pope Francis left it very vague as to the question of remarrieds and communion. One could amost make a case for himself no matter what side he's on. Persoally, I think he opened the door.

 

[perrero]

I don't argue this with you, it's a personal choice. It would just be interesting to understand why. If you say that it's because Jesus said to pray to the Father in Mathew 6:9, then BoL is correct is saying that it's denying the deity of Jesus.
The Trinity is separate by attributes of work for each individual person, however, they are all ONE and GOD.

It is NOT one God in three people.
It is three people in ONE GOD.

Thank you.
But I do understand the Trinity, and because I obey what Jesus said, which is to pray to the Father does not take away the Divinity of Christ. How you and BoL come to that conclusion is beyond me. Who would you ask for the Baptism of the Spirit? Jesus? No, you the father according to Luke 10:11-13
But certainly this is another reason, Scriptural reason, why I do not believe in praying to saints or dead (as in passed on) people in heaven. It is simply idolatrous.
I am accused of denying Christ's divinity by praying to the Father yet every Catholic person who prays to Dead people or saints instead of the Father is NOT just as guilty? Does hypocritical come to mind?
At least I have scripture to back me up? Where's your scripture to agree with BoL?
You seem to be easily duped into believing BoL's false doctrines? I charge you BEWARE.

 

[GodsGrace]

Thank you.
But I do understand the Trinity, and because I obey what Jesus said, which is to pray to the Father does not take away the Divinity of Christ. How you and BoL come to that conclusion is beyond me. Who would you ask for the Baptism of the Spirit? Jesus? No, you the father according to Luke 10:11-13
But certainly this is another reason, Scriptural reason, why I do not believe in praying to saints or dead (as in passed on) people in heaven. It is simply idolatrous.
I am accused of denying Christ's divinity by praying to the Father yet every Catholic person who prays to Dead people or saints instead of the Father is NOT just as guilty? Does hypocritical come to mind?
At least I have scripture to back me up? Where's your scripture to agree with BoL?
You seem to be easily duped into believing BoL's false doctrines? I charge you BEWARE.

Thanks Perrero!
I appreciate your concern. Really.
But don't you worry about me!
I know both Catholic and Protestant doctrine.
I understand BoL very well.

Here's the difference between NOT PRAYING TO JESUS
and praying to saints.

Persons could be praying to saints and they MIGHT be wrong. God will forgive everything we do except the blaspheming of the Holy Spirit. Do you think we Protestants have all our doctrine perfectly correct? We certainly don't.

This is why Jesus is necessary. So He could cover for everything we get wrong.

BUT, NOT praying to Jesus (the negative) MAY possibly be harming the Holy Spirit. I'm not saying it is, I'm saying that NOT praying to Jesus is almost like saying HE isn't God.

So there is a difference and I'd say that not glorifying our Lord and speaking to Him and thanking Him and being in communion with HIM, is far worse than praying to persons who may not even be hearing us.

We could be SURE that JESUS IS hearing us.

 

[GodsGrace]

No - I DO agree.
This is what should happen to a born again person. However - ALL newly Baptized people need guidance.
Paul guided Silas and Timothy, Barnabas guided Mark and so on.

Being born again doesn't make you an automatic "Super Christian". You will still sin, you will still stumble and you will still get things wrong if you're not educated.

As for Infant Baptism - I will never understand Protestant objections to this Apostolic Tradition.
Babies entered into the Covenant with God at EIGHT days old. did they have a choice?? Were they able to make a Covenant with God? The answer is NO. They were guided by their parents and/or guardians to be raised in the faith of their fathers. They became members of the Family of God - just as babies now become members at Baptism.

Paul compares Baptism in the New Covenant with Circumcision in the Old Covenant.
Likewise, the Catholic Church teaches that infant Baptism in the New Covenant is done so by the faith of the parents - to raise the child according to the New Covenant.

Paul uses the terms, “circumcision of the heart” and the “circumcision of Christ” (Rom. 2:29, Col. 2:12-17) to describe the reality of circumcision being a spiritually inward act, not merely an outward sign. The Old Testament type that was circumcision is now Baptism.

I agree with everything especially about how parents are SUPPOSED to raise up their children. They're the first catechists, but unfortunately, these days, this doesn't happen anymore.

I don't agree 100% with the circumcision comparison.
The Jews were circumcised because it was the sign of the Abrhamic Covenant.
Jews were supposed to be circumcised so that they could be shown to be separate from the gentiles and to show that they were the special people of God with whom the covenant was made.

So the circumcision made them JEWISH. But it did NOT save them.
People were saved by FAITH even in the O.T. No difference.

Jesus said to preach what He had taught and to baptize. Only an adult could learn what Jesus had taught.

As I said , I DO understand why the C C baptises babies but I can't agree. About 4 or 5 years ago it was my understanding that they were thinking of changing this but there was too much resistance from the members of the church.

Infants get baptized and then the parents don't even bring them to Mass as children.

To say nothing of imputed sin.
You want to get into that?
I could go on forever.

 

[perrero]

I had asked you to please explain the above to me and you never did.
I looked it up myself and I can only assume (something I don't like to do but you left me no choice) that you're saying that the Catholic Church makes statues of idols and prays to them.

Didn't Moses make a representation of a snake? To be held up to cure people of snake bites. Just a Jesus had to be held up to cure us of our sin.

And weren't some cherubin (I think) made to be put on top of the Ark of the Covenant?

What's the difference?

From what I understand statues were made in churches because people were kind of in need of something before their eyes that they could see. I don't see so many statues in Catholic churches anymore. Maybe people are more well-read these days.

IOW, are they praying to THE STATUE, or who it represents. That's my point.

Do you think it is OK to remove scripture and discard it? How about we remove the word Repentance from the Bible? Do you think this will be advantageous or detrimental to one's salvation? Based on your answer, do you think it's OK to remove the verses in Ex. and Deu. which conveniently state not to make any idols and then worship them?

There may be a slight nuance here, but on the one hand God is forbidding man to make images as He well knows it leads to idolatry, on the other hand God's solution, following Moses' petition for the people (re:snake) is to use the Bronze serpent which is, as you say the perfect type or representation of what Christ did on the cross for us. No different than smiting the rock and waters of life poured forth.

You answered your question by stating; "From what I understand statues were made in churches because people were kind of in need of something before their eyes that they could see." And you are OK with that? It totally draws peoples attention from true source of salvation, healing, etc.unto something else. Have we not learned through the Israelites, how fickle man can be? After 400 years of slavery, the ten plagues of God's supreme power, the deliverance through the red sea etc, it took them 40 days and they built a golden calf and went hog wild over it. How strong are you in your faith? If you accept the idols, statues, pictures of the C church, how will you stand up when the Antichrist comes along, with signs and miracles deceiving the nations?
Man is so thirsty for the eternal that he falls for practically anything. And if a church, or a person's his own religion, tells him that by bowing to idols and statues, praying to these same confections, will get them some kind of "in" with God or that these idols, including Mary, have some kind of inside influence with God, man is only too pleased by doing things that way. Why? Because man has never wanted to do God's way? Man thinks that his own way will still be capable of reaching heaven and should that not be enough, let's trow in a doctrine of purgatory so that, no matter what, your fire insurance will be paid up.
This is what renders God ineffectual, this is what puts the Father on the back burner in favour of idols, this is what is damning people to hell. And you wonder why I call it a cult?
And I am accused of stripping Christ of his divinity because I pray to the father, LIKE HE SAID. WOW! The logic is astounding!

 

[perrero]

Oh, by the way - Jesus himself prayed to others at least 135 times in the Gospel.
Every time he ASKED something of somebody - He was PRAYING to them:

You have got to be kidding me!
You are actually equating the praying made to God, for salvation, healing, graces, whatever, with the simple conversations that Jesus had with people when he questioned them, challenged them or asked them for something, and conclude that Jesus was praying to the people.
Do you ever read over your own posts to see how ridiculous and deluded they are?

You are taking those 135 verses where Jesus is asking people a simple question, Ex: Mark 8:20 "And when the seven among the four thousand, how many basketfuls of broken pieces took ye up? And they say unto him, Seven.", as He was praying to these people.
So when I asked my neighbour to borrow his lawnmower, I'm actually praying to him.
Oh! Precious neighbour of mine, how was the concert last night, Amen!

This would be laughable if it wasn't so sad.

 

[GodsGrace]

Do you think it is OK to remove scripture and discard it? How about we remove the word Repentance from the Bible? Do you think this will be advantageous or detrimental to one's salvation? Based on your answer, do you think it's OK to remove the verses in Ex. and Deu. which conveniently state not to make any idols and then worship them?

There may be a slight nuance here, but on the one hand God is forbidding man to make images as He well knows it leads to idolatry, on the other hand God's solution, following Moses' petition for the people (re:snake) is to use the Bronze serpent which is, as you say the perfect type or representation of what Christ did on the cross for us. No different than smiting the rock and waters of life poured forth.

You answered your question by stating; "From what I understand statues were made in churches because people were kind of in need of something before their eyes that they could see." And you are OK with that? It totally draws peoples attention from true source of salvation, healing, etc.unto something else. Have we not learned through the Israelites, how fickle man can be? After 400 years of slavery, the ten plagues of God's supreme power, the deliverance through the red sea etc, it took them 40 days and they built a golden calf and went hog wild over it. How strong are you in your faith? If you accept the idols, statues, pictures of the C church, how will you stand up when the Antichrist comes along, with signs and miracles deceiving the nations?
Man is so thirsty for the eternal that he falls for practically anything. And if a church, or a person's his own religion, tells him that by bowing to idols and statues, praying to these same confections, will get them some kind of "in" with God or that these idols, including Mary, have some kind of inside influence with God, man is only too pleased by doing things that way. Why? Because man has never wanted to do God's way? Man thinks that his own way will still be capable of reaching heaven and should that not be enough, let's trow in a doctrine of purgatory so that, no matter what, your fire insurance will be paid up.
This is what renders God ineffectual, this is what puts the Father on the back burner in favour of idols, this is what is damning people to hell. And you wonder why I call it a cult?
And I am accused of stripping Christ of his divinity because I pray to the father, LIKE HE SAID. WOW! The logic is astounding!

Yes. I think it's OK to use statues if it helps someone.
Have you been out of the U.S. ?
I've been to towns where people don't even own a bible and yet love God.

Regarding Exodus and Deuteronomy...
I checked a Catholic bible and find that nothing has been removed.
Could you tell me which bible you're reading?

I checked both an Itlaian bible and also the Good News Bible which is Catholic.

ALL the commandments are written there.

Plus, I don't think you understand that the person is not praying to the statue, it's used to focus attention. I don't need statues, but if someone does, I don't see the harm.

I don't have more time. Please check a Catholic bible for Ex and Deut.
The entire list of commandments is in my two that I compared to the NASB.

I'd appreciate it. I've never heard of this before...

 

[GodsGrace]

You have got to be kidding me!
You are actually equating the praying made to God, for salvation, healing, graces, whatever, with the simple conversations that Jesus had with people when he questioned them, challenged them or asked them for something, and conclude that Jesus was praying to the people.
Do you ever read over your own posts to see how ridiculous and deluded they are?

You are taking those 135 verses where Jesus is asking people a simple question, Ex: Mark 8:20 "And when the seven among the four thousand, how many basketfuls of broken pieces took ye up? And they say unto him, Seven.", as He was praying to these people.
So when I asked my neighbour to borrow his lawnmower, I'm actually praying to him.
Oh! Precious neighbour of mine, how was the concert last night, Amen!

This would be laughable if it wasn't so sad.

I also didn't see the prayers.

 

[GodsGrace]

Do you think it is OK to remove scripture and discard it? How about we remove the word Repentance from the Bible? Do you think this will be advantageous or detrimental to one's salvation? Based on your answer, do you think it's OK to remove the verses in Ex. and Deu. which conveniently state not to make any idols and then worship them?

There may be a slight nuance here, but on the one hand God is forbidding man to make images as He well knows it leads to idolatry, on the other hand God's solution, following Moses' petition for the people (re:snake) is to use the Bronze serpent which is, as you say the perfect type or representation of what Christ did on the cross for us. No different than smiting the rock and waters of life poured forth.

You answered your question by stating; "From what I understand statues were made in churches because people were kind of in need of something before their eyes that they could see." And you are OK with that? It totally draws peoples attention from true source of salvation, healing, etc.unto something else. Have we not learned through the Israelites, how fickle man can be? After 400 years of slavery, the ten plagues of God's supreme power, the deliverance through the red sea etc, it took them 40 days and they built a golden calf and went hog wild over it. How strong are you in your faith? If you accept the idols, statues, pictures of the C church, how will you stand up when the Antichrist comes along, with signs and miracles deceiving the nations?
Man is so thirsty for the eternal that he falls for practically anything. And if a church, or a person's his own religion, tells him that by bowing to idols and statues, praying to these same confections, will get them some kind of "in" with God or that these idols, including Mary, have some kind of inside influence with God, man is only too pleased by doing things that way. Why? Because man has never wanted to do God's way? Man thinks that his own way will still be capable of reaching heaven and should that not be enough, let's trow in a doctrine of purgatory so that, no matter what, your fire insurance will be paid up.
This is what renders God ineffectual, this is what puts the Father on the back burner in favour of idols, this is what is damning people to hell. And you wonder why I call it a cult?
And I am accused of stripping Christ of his divinity because I pray to the father, LIKE HE SAID. WOW! The logic is astounding!

Have you been to a Mass lately?
I was at one two weeks ago.
The priest asked the congregation if they know Jesus.
He said it's not enough to be a good person --- we have to know the Son of God.
He asked them what they would say if they met Jesus and He asked them if they now Him.

I still don't undrstand why you think the C C is damning people to hell.
It gives all the information necessary for those who are interested.
Not everyone is.

 

[aspen]

Hank WAS anti-Catholic - and admits to it now.

I used to listen to his show every day on the way home from work. His guests would usually include other virulent anti-Catholics like James White and John MacArthur. Praise God that Hank has seen the error of his ways and is no longer the man he was before.

Hiding your head in the sand and pretending that there is no such thing as anti-Catholicism may work you YOU - but it's nothing more denial.

No. There are antiCatholic people out there - they have ministeries devoted to it. James White is a perfect example and I used to debate him for years. Like you, he insulted, mocked, and scoffed and declared victory after every post.

The very fact that there are antiCatholic people out there makes it all the worse that you use the label so recklessly - you are giving people reason to hate Catholicism when perhaps they are indifferent

 

[Helen]

You have got to be kidding me! ( To BOL)
You are actually equating the praying made to God, for salvation, healing, graces, whatever, with the simple conversations that Jesus had with people when he questioned them, challenged them or asked them for something, and conclude that Jesus was praying to the people.
Do you ever read over your own posts to see how ridiculous and deluded they are?

You are taking those 135 verses where Jesus is asking people a simple question, Ex: Mark 8:20 "And when the seven among the four thousand, how many basketfuls of broken pieces took ye up? And they say unto him, Seven.", as He was praying to these people.
So when I asked my neighbour to borrow his lawnmower, I'm actually praying to him.
Oh! Precious neighbour of mine, how was the concert last night, Amen!

This would be laughable if it wasn't so sad.

I am laughing along with you..sad indeed...but I did have to laugh.
I am amazed that I can still be surprised about how some people perceive the things of God!!
What a reach...in desperation I think.

Goodness me..how far your thread has come from the OP...I never dreamed in 1000 years that it would get much air time...or how anyone could have possibly turned it is a C v P thread!!

 

[perrero]

Jesus Himself said that unless a person is BAPTIZED, he cannot be saved (Mark 16:16, John 3:5).

I can't, for the life of me, figure out why you reject the words of Christ . . .

OK, one final round on this one. Once again you have stated your belief on this. I will state mine. You can come back with more rebuttal but this is my final to you on Baptism.
You have joined both belief and baptism as a prerequisite to salvation. You quote Mark 16:16 ignoring many other verses that do not support that and also situations where baptism is non existent (thief on the cross, aborted children, etc.). These you all call exceptions in order to safeguard your belief.
Mark 16:16 says "He that believes and is baptized shall be saved; but he that disbelieves shall be condemned." if baptism is such an integral part of salvation then it should ..."but he that disbelieves (and is not baptized -- my words) shall be condemned.
But you don't have to answer that, I know what you're going to say, "If you don't believe obviously you won't be baptized so no need to mention it".
The mention of baptism here is the baptism that occurs when one believes and that is the baptism into the body of Christ.
1 Cor. 12:"For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit."
This is what happens simultaneously when one believes. The Spirit immediately baptizes that one into the Body.

John 3:5 "Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except one be born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God! "
The water spoken of here is the water of the womb, the physical birth of everyone vs. the spiritual birth.
Even Nicodemus recognized this as he replied, "How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?"
NOTICE verse 6 "That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit." this is part of Jesus' reply to him.
Stick with the context and you'll do OK.

Romans 10:10 "For with the heart man believes unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation." Do you see anything here on baptism? Since it is so important for salvation, did Paul forget about it?
God looks at the heart, He doesn't also check our skin to see if it was sprinkled or dunked with water.

The whole chapter of Hebrews 11 is about faith alone, whether under the covenant or outside it. All that was needed was a lamb, no water, no sprinkling, just the precious blood of the Lamb, for without the blood there is no remission of sin, NOT without the blood and Baptism.

Anyway, I think I'm wasting my time on this one. You are only going to come back with more of the same. Verses out of context, playing with definitions such as the word praying, and more illogical stuff. So I'm done on this issue, at least with you.

 

[perrero]

The Catholic Church has never "removed" a single verse from Scripture, so I don't know why you keep making this asinine claim.
Tell me which verses the Church "removed" and I will show them to you - from a CATHOLIC Bible.

And you STILL haven't been able to refute anything I said about the Ten Commandments. Angry ad hominems are NOT evidence.
When you are ready to have a grown up discussion, where you present evidence to refute what I presented - then let me know . . .

Do you not read my posts, the verse are quote right at the beginning?

 

[perrero]

Only in matters of teaching faith and morals.
The Pope is infallible in teaching these matters ONLY because he is guided by the Holy Spirit.

He is not impeccable.

Are you infallible"

 

[perrero]

Yes BoL
I will not argue this because, as I said, we cannot know everything on this side of life.
And most certainly it will be very different on the other side.

What do you think of this idea of mine:
We will be very joyful when we're with our Lord.
How can we be joyful if we see those that we love that will have been left behind?
Their problems, their sufferings?

How do you understand this?

It's probably going to be an exception or some other convoluted nonsensical explanation.

Thanks Perrero!
I appreciate your concern. Really.
But don't you worry about me!
I know both Catholic and Protestant doctrine.
I understand BoL very well.

Here's the difference between NOT PRAYING TO JESUS
and praying to saints.

Persons could be praying to saints and they MIGHT be wrong. God will forgive everything we do except the blaspheming of the Holy Spirit. Do you think we Protestants have all our doctrine perfectly correct? We certainly don't.

This is why Jesus is necessary. So He could cover for everything we get wrong.

BUT, NOT praying to Jesus (the negative) MAY possibly be harming the Holy Spirit. I'm not saying it is, I'm saying that NOT praying to Jesus is almost like saying HE isn't God.

So there is a difference and I'd say that not glorifying our Lord and speaking to Him and thanking Him and being in communion with HIM, is far worse than praying to persons who may not even be hearing us.

We could be SURE that JESUS IS hearing us.

So when I pray to the Father and thank Him so much for sending His Son Jesus, do you not think that that is not giving Jesus some glory. I am acknowledging before the Father the wonderful sacrifice that He suffered for me, and that's not glorifying.
I once prayed to the Father to show me His Holiness. Do you know what He answered?
Look to Jesus in the gospels! He didn't say pray, He said look. Jesus and the Father are one. He who sees Jesus, sees the Father. Yes once again I believe in the Trinity. But the fullness of the Father was revealed in Jesus.
But the fact remains, Jesus plainly and specifically said to pray to the Father. And if you have a problem with it, don't take it up with me, take it up with Him.

 

[aspen]

No - Hank chose to join the Orthodox Church, which, although is schism from the Catholic Church is not Protestant.
St. John Paul the Great called the Catholic and Orthodox churches the right and left lungs of Christ's Church.

We are no even allowed to receive the Eucharist in orthodox churches. The Pope excommunicated the Ecumenical Patriarch of Constantinople in 1054 and he returned the favor by excommunicating the Pope. Why do you manipulate Church history for your own ends? You know, lying involves this sort of manipulation. When you tell people here who are not being manipulative (simply stating their opinion, right or wrong), you are failing to understand the concept.

 

[aspen]

It's probably going to be an exception or some other convoluted nonsensical explanation.


So when I pray to the Father and thank Him so much for sending His Son Jesus, do you not think that that is not giving Jesus some glory. I am acknowledging before the Father the wonderful sacrifice that He suffered for me, and that's not glorifying.
I once prayed to the Father to show me His Holiness. Do you know what He answered?
Look to Jesus in the gospels! He didn't say pray, He said look. Jesus and the Father are one. He who sees Jesus, sees the Father. Yes once again I believe in the Trinity. But the fullness of the Father was revealed in Jesus.
But the fact remains, Jesus plainly and specifically said to pray to the Father. And if you have a problem with it, don't take it up with me, take it up with Him.

Worship is for God alone. There is no limits on prayer - it is simply communication

 

[perrero]

I am laughing along with you..sad indeed...but I did have to laugh.
I am amazed that I can still be surprised about how some people perceive the things of God!!
What a reach...in desperation I think.

Goodness me..how far your thread has come from the OP...I never dreamed in 1000 years that it would get much air time...or how anyone could have possibly turned it is a C v P thread!!

I know sometimes it is hilarious.
As for the thread, it probably should have been diverted back when it became C against P. But whatever.

 

[perrero]

Worship is for God alone. There is no limits on prayer - it is simply communication

Sorry but I will never agree to communication with dead people alive on the other side. They have no power or authority to grant anything and they are a distraction to what should be reserved to the Father.

 

[mjrhealth]

And what part of Protestant pastors raping children, swindling money from congregants and carousing with hookers is from God??

There are PLENTY of sinners in every church.
The Church was established by sinners - they were called "Apostles".

The one thing that angry, ignorant people like you will never understand is that Christ's Church is NOT a museum of saints - but a hospital for sinners . . .

exactly the harlot church system all of it.