Why John 6:37 is grossly misunderstood and misapplied

[justbyfaith]

Hello @justbyfaith,

Just a thought, not in opposition, but a, 'getting-along-side,' for a moment. :)

You say that we receive faith as an act of the will: I believe that it is the result of the entrance of His Word, for it is that which brings 'light', and that which engenders 'faith'. It is His Word in the hand of the Holy Spirit which brings conviction of sin, and of righteousness, isn't it? I don't believe that it is an act of will. I believe it is an awareness of the truth concerning our sinful state, as the result of that' light' shining within: the fearful revelation concerning the consequences of sin; and the grateful acknowledgement of the sacrifice of Christ, as the means of our salvation. There is no decision to be made in the light of that knowledge, but to fall on our knees and lay our hand on the Lamb of God as our sin-bearer, and trust God to keep His promise of life through His name. Regarding repentance, I believe it to be, again, the result of the entrance of light, through the Word of God, in the hand of the Holy Spirit. For we are His workmanship, are we not? It is all His Work.

In Christ Jesus
Chris

I agree with you for the most part. For,

Rom 10:17, So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

 

[marks]

Faith came by hearing and hearing by the word of God; but God did not show up until I made a decision.

this reminds me of Hebrews 4:
4 Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it.
2 For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.
3 For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.

Faith comes by hearing the Word of God, just the same, the rest is not entered until one believes. I think of it like taking the faith God gives you and using it for something.

Much love!
mark

 

[charity]

I agree with you for the most part. For,

Rom 10:17, So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

A big sisterly hug to you @justbyfaith,

In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[justbyfaith]

this reminds me of Hebrews 4:
4 Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it.
2 For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.
3 For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.

Faith comes by hearing the Word of God, just the same, the rest is not entered until one believes. I think of it like taking the faith God gives you and using it for something.

Much love!
mark

Yes...mixing faith with the word preached...we do this, while they didn't do that in the old days...which indicates that it is a fork in the road...some do it and others don't.

 

[justbyfaith]

A big sisterly hug to you @justbyfaith,

In Christ Jesus
Chris

Thanks, big sis (because I turned 46 in the beginning of this year)...you just made my day!

 

[Jun2u]

Anyone who claims that God and Christ did NOT mean the whole world in this passage make God and Christ liars.

The problem is how you understand verse 17? What is the intent of that verse? Is the verse speaking of the world or about the people in the world?

Which is it?

To God Be The Glory

 

[justbyfaith]

It means that Christ came not for the sake of condemnation but for the sake of redemption...He died for the sins of the whole world...and those who receive Him, to them He gives the power to become the sons of God, even to those who believe on His name.

re #286.

 

[justbyfaith]

John 7:17-18

Is there anyone except Jesus who has no unrighteousness in him?

 

[Jun2u]

He died for the sins of the whole world

Please elaborate.

To God Be The Glory

 

[Phoneman777]

Those who believe in so-called *Unconditional Election* (from the five Points of Calvinism) interpret John 6:37 as though it means that God the Father chooses (predestines and elects) some for salvation (which would also mean that He elects some for damnation). But the context makes it clear that the meaning is THE EXACT OPPOSITE of what is assumed. The context of this verse is as below (in the KJV)

37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.

39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Therefore we need to start with verse 40, and what it says is that (a) everyone is given the opportunity to see the Son and believe on Him (through the Gospel), (b) those who believe on Him will receive the gift of everlasting life, and (c) those who receive everlasting life will be resurrected and receive immortal, glorified bodies.

Then we go to verse 39, which speaks of the eternal security of the believer, which means that those who are genuinely saved cannot lose their salvation, and will be raised again on *the Last Day* (which is not one 24 hour day).

Then we go to verse 38, and see that Christ came to do the will of the Father, not His own will. But what was the will of the Father? For that we need to go to John 3:17, which tells us that the will of the Father was the salvation of THE WHOLE WORLD: For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. And this is the EXACT OPPOSITE of Unconditional Election.

So now we come to verse 37, which tells us that God draws all men to Christ, but only those who believe are the ones who are given to Him, and these are the ones who will come to Him, and whom He will not cast out.

Scripture also tells us that just as the Father draws men to Christ through the Gospel, the Son does the same, and so does the Holy Spirit. In other words the triune Godhead acts in concert with the Gospel to bring about the salvation of sinners. But only those who obey the Gospel, and respond with repentance and faith, will be saved and eternally secure, to be raised up on the *Last Day*.

Very good - but I will say this once and not reply to anything since this thread is intended for another discussion, but I disagree with the part you added about OSAS. The idea of "belief" goes well beyond that of a mere "mental assent" - if "belief in Christ" does not result in a conscious choice of total, daily surrender of control of our life to Christ (Luke 9:23; Matthew 24:12-13) while trusting Him for everything in this life and the next, then the believer is left only to tremble along with believing devils.

 

[justbyfaith]

Please elaborate.

To God Be The Glory

2Co 5:21, For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

Very good - but I will say this once and not reply to anything since this thread is intended for another discussion, but I disagree with the part you added about OSAS. The idea of "belief" goes well beyond that of a mere "mental assent" - if "belief in Christ" does not result in a conscious choice of total, daily surrender of control of our life to Christ (Luke 9:23; Matthew 24:12-13) while trusting Him for everything in this life and the next, then the believer is left only to tremble along with believing devils.

The faith of Luke 8:13 is mere mental assent...a nominal, lukewarm, and/or shallow faith...while the faith of John 5:24, John 6:47, John 10:28, and Hebrews 13:5 must be a heart faith that is unto righteousness...Romans 10:10.

It is a faith that for ever abides unto consistent righteousness...1 John 2:17 and 1 John 3:6.

 

[Phoneman777]

2Co 5:21, For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.



The faith of Luke 8:13 is mere mental assent...a nominal, lukewarm, and/or shallow faith...while the faith of John 5:24, John 6:47, John 10:28, and Hebrews 13:5 must be a heart faith that is unto righteousness...Romans 10:10.

It is a faith that for ever abides unto consistent righteousness...1 John 2:17 and 1 John 3:6.

OK, I'll reply just this once: You do realize that the word "righteousness" means literally "right doing" or "doing the right thing"? Either our belief leads us to surrender our lives to Jesus so that He can sit enthroned on our hearts and direct our thoughts, words, and actions, or our belief will leave us only to tremble with believing devils.

 

[justbyfaith]

OK, I'll reply just this once: You do realize that the word "righteousness" means literally "right doing" or "doing the right thing"? Either our belief leads us to surrender our lives to Jesus so that He can sit enthroned on our hearts and direct our thoughts, words, and actions, or our belief will leave us only to tremble with believing devils.

I'm saying that only a heart faith is unto righteousness and enduring unto the end...there is a type of belief that is shallow, lukewarm, and/or nominal...it is not a saving faith, it is a dead faith. The transformation of faith is accomplished by faith alone apart from works...but the transformation itself will result in works. If the faith is mere mental assent to the tenets of the gospel, and does not reach down into the heart, then it is intellectual agreement with God's word, but it does not save.

Jhn 5:39, Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.
Jhn 5:40, And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.

 

[mjrhealth]

This is a blatant lie. You cannot be saved apart from living a holy life.

Oh so now Christ is a liar is He,

Eph_2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

and again

Rom 10:11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
Rom 10:12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
Rom 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

and on and on it goes adding too.

 

[justbyfaith]

Oh so now Christ is a liar is He,

Eph_2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

and again

Rom 10:11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
Rom 10:12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
Rom 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

and on and on it goes adding too.

Amen...you call on the name of the Lord, you shall be saved...not like what Hyper-Calvinism preaches, that you might not be saved because you might not be one of God's elect.

You have to consider that there is only one word in the English language for faith (I don't know about what it is in the Greek); and therefore no distinction would have been made between saving, heart faith, and unsaving, mental assent (which would still be identified as faith)...except when we compare scripture with scripture.

I believe that if you do an extensive study on this subject you will come to the same conclusions that I have.

 

[Enoch111]

The problem is how you understand verse 17? What is the intent of that verse? Is the verse speaking of the world or about the people in the world? Which is it?

Verse 17 is speaking of all the inhabitants of the world, the human race, mankind -- all the people of the world. Not nature or the physical aspects of the world. *Whosoever* is repeated over and over again in Scripture and in this context.

Vine's Expository Dictionary of NT Words
World
1: κόσμος
(Strong's #2889 — Noun Masculine — kosmos — kos'-mos )...
primarily "order, arrangement, ornament, adornment"... (c) by metonymy, the "human race, mankind," e.g., Matthew 5:14 ; John 1:9 [here "that cometh (RV, 'coming') into the world" is said of Christ, not of "every man;" by His coming into the world He was the light for all men]; 1 John 3:10 ; Jn 3:16,17 (thrice),19; 4:42, and frequently in Rom. 1Cor. and 1 John;...

Also we have this important teaching:
For the bread of God is he which cometh down from heaven, and giveth life unto the world... This is the bread which cometh down from heaven, that a man may eat thereof, and not die. I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world. (John 6:33,50.51)

It should be evident from this that Christ -- the Bread of God -- is able to give eternal life to *any man* (and every man) which corresponds to *whosoever*. But it is only the one who eats of this Bread (partakes of Christ in Spirit) who "shall live forever".

There a many passages throughout the Bible which confirm that Christ died for the sins of the whole world, therefore whosoever will may come and partake of the Bread of Life and the Water of Life.

 

[mjrhealth]

Amen...you call on the name of the Lord, you shall be saved...not like what Calvinism preaches, that you might not be saved because you might not be one of God's elect.

You have to consider that there is only one word in the English language for faith (I don't know about what it is in the Greek); and therefore no distinction would have been made between saving, heart faith, and unsaving, mental assent (which would still be identified as faith)...except when we compare scripture with scripture.

I believe that if you do an extensive study on this subject you will come to the same conclusions that I have.

Gods Elect, those whom He has called, not all will answer, He gives many opportunities but many turn Him down, love their religion more than God, even one of the SDA fellows on this forum but he too would rather his religion than his calling. Many will be saved but because they would rather there religions than Christ they will be here during the tribualtion for they have not made themselves ready.

 

[Phoneman777]

I'm saying that only a heart faith is unto righteousness and enduring unto the end...there is a type of belief that is shallow, lukewarm, and/or nominal...it is not a saving faith, it is a dead faith. The transformation of faith is accomplished by faith alone apart from works...but the transformation itself will result in works. If the faith is mere mental assent to the tenets of the gospel, and does not reach down into the heart, then it is intellectual agreement with God's word, but it does not save.

Jhn 5:39, Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.
Jhn 5:40, And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.

Promised I wouldn't reply so Ill just say I appreciate your KJV tagline verses - the newer versions change Christ's words from a command to search: (Christ pointing at us with penetrating eyes) - "SEARCH the Scriptures..."

...to just a mere observation that a search is made if it is made at all: (Christ standing with arms folded with a prideful look) - "Ye search the Scriptures..."

 

[Phoneman777]

Oh so now Christ is a liar is He,

Eph_2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

Why do you Courtyard Christians never go on to quote verse 10?

"For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them."

No matter how much you try to say otherwise, obedience to God's commandments is not optional, it's mandatory.

 

[Phoneman777]

The problem is how you understand verse 17? What is the intent of that verse? Is the verse speaking of the world or about the people in the world?

Which is it?

To God Be The Glory

How is what Enoch111 saying about "the whole world" a problem? Unless you are adopting the view of Black Hebrew Israelites which is that the "world" refers to only a certain select group of individuals to which God has decided to exclusively show favor.