Why its important to keep the Sabbath
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BarneyFife
Well-Known Member
@Randy Kluth
So, here's the deal: You called me; I didn't call you.
I don't care if you think the direct approach is insulting.
Again, two long posts of deflecting and spitballing.
I suppose I'm expected to respond to all of it even though, after calling me out, you won't answer two simple questions but, instead, prefer to "address" my "concern."
That's somewhat insulting. You're dictating terms without any good faith, authority, or leverage to do so.
So I'm going to directly address a few points in hopes that you'll do me the same courtesy.
I understand the non-argument perfectly. Who is "everybody in history?" Cite testimony to support your claim from just one of these people. "It's foolish to say otherwise" is just a superfluous remark to shore up an argument from silence.
You're making an opinionated generalization here based on a Q&A snippet. You can't tell me what he and others were saying about the law in general based on that, which is an obfuscation and over-complication anyway.
What we're talking about is the "commandments" to which Hebrews 7 and Romans 7 refer and whether they are synonymous or not—which they aren't and is made plain by the ceremonial and moral contexts, respectively.
You made the claim that Hebrews called for the changing of the law as if the Ten Commandments were included in that change and I've demonstrated by reasonable hermeneutics that your claim is false.
I know that postmodern Christianity is awash with the Mitzvot nonsense and I get it. But it is false doctrine and playing the victim of insult isn't going to change that.
The Ten Commandments etched in stone by the finger of God were kept inside the ark of the covenant and the writings of Moses (admittedly, most likely containing the transcription of the Ten Commandments as they appear in Exodus 20) were kept alongside the ark.
In Leviticus 23:38, the LORD distinguishes the weekly Sabbath of the LORD from the feast sabbaths that were part of ceremonial law.
These are facts. You can dismiss them if you like and claim that people believed the "613" nonsense 50 years ago but I was there and I'm telling you that they believed no such thing unless they all somehow conspired to keep it from me.
Pontification based on your own perceived authority
The ultimate argument from imagined silence. Have you read Luther, Wycliffe, Spurgeon, anyone?
We do not agree on that. Morals are eternal—they do not "remain." And you've got some nerve suggesting that someone with the credibility of a Billy Graham (to whom I truly have no particular loyalty) "didn't dig into the details enough to use perfect language."
I didn't base my faith on their "language" at all.
And I'm sure if Graham had just studied a little more after nearly 70 years of ministry, evangelism, and study, he'd have had a chance to catch up with your understanding.
By the way, which is it—"they" didn't dig enough or weren't even "queried?" Give me a break.
You've already quit, brother. You're not saying anything.
Except for the 4th, right?
And many of your fellow Sabbath objectors disagree.
And a house divided against itself...
This might actually be a new one on me. But it's just as hare-brained as all the rest of the desperate attempts that have been devised over the centuries to whittle away at the perpetuity of the 4th commandment. The very text in the commandment itself specifically tells us to rest because HE rested from creating the world—not we.
It's not a problem to define. It's stated plainly in Hebrews 4. Resting in the LORD is our 24/7 part of what constitutes abiding and enduring to the end. Resting on the Sabbath never purchased eternal life for anyone.
You can do all the suggesting you like—I prefer to do what God simply says.
I agree, but I seriously doubt we agree on what that means.
Just a bunch of postmodern neo-New Covenant baloney. You don't know "what they meant." You don't even know who "they" are.
At least say something responsive if you can't answer my questions.
.
So, here's the deal: You called me; I didn't call you.
I don't care if you think the direct approach is insulting.
Again, two long posts of deflecting and spitballing.
I suppose I'm expected to respond to all of it even though, after calling me out, you won't answer two simple questions but, instead, prefer to "address" my "concern."
That's somewhat insulting. You're dictating terms without any good faith, authority, or leverage to do so.
So I'm going to directly address a few points in hopes that you'll do me the same courtesy.
I understand the non-argument perfectly. Who is "everybody in history?" Cite testimony to support your claim from just one of these people. "It's foolish to say otherwise" is just a superfluous remark to shore up an argument from silence.
You're making an opinionated generalization here based on a Q&A snippet. You can't tell me what he and others were saying about the law in general based on that, which is an obfuscation and over-complication anyway.
What we're talking about is the "commandments" to which Hebrews 7 and Romans 7 refer and whether they are synonymous or not—which they aren't and is made plain by the ceremonial and moral contexts, respectively.
You made the claim that Hebrews called for the changing of the law as if the Ten Commandments were included in that change and I've demonstrated by reasonable hermeneutics that your claim is false.
I know that postmodern Christianity is awash with the Mitzvot nonsense and I get it. But it is false doctrine and playing the victim of insult isn't going to change that.
The Ten Commandments etched in stone by the finger of God were kept inside the ark of the covenant and the writings of Moses (admittedly, most likely containing the transcription of the Ten Commandments as they appear in Exodus 20) were kept alongside the ark.
In Leviticus 23:38, the LORD distinguishes the weekly Sabbath of the LORD from the feast sabbaths that were part of ceremonial law.
These are facts. You can dismiss them if you like and claim that people believed the "613" nonsense 50 years ago but I was there and I'm telling you that they believed no such thing unless they all somehow conspired to keep it from me.
Pontification based on your own perceived authority
The ultimate argument from imagined silence. Have you read Luther, Wycliffe, Spurgeon, anyone?
We do not agree on that. Morals are eternal—they do not "remain." And you've got some nerve suggesting that someone with the credibility of a Billy Graham (to whom I truly have no particular loyalty) "didn't dig into the details enough to use perfect language."
I didn't base my faith on their "language" at all.
And I'm sure if Graham had just studied a little more after nearly 70 years of ministry, evangelism, and study, he'd have had a chance to catch up with your understanding.
By the way, which is it—"they" didn't dig enough or weren't even "queried?" Give me a break.
You've already quit, brother. You're not saying anything.
Except for the 4th, right?
And many of your fellow Sabbath objectors disagree.
And a house divided against itself...
This might actually be a new one on me. But it's just as hare-brained as all the rest of the desperate attempts that have been devised over the centuries to whittle away at the perpetuity of the 4th commandment. The very text in the commandment itself specifically tells us to rest because HE rested from creating the world—not we.
It's not a problem to define. It's stated plainly in Hebrews 4. Resting in the LORD is our 24/7 part of what constitutes abiding and enduring to the end. Resting on the Sabbath never purchased eternal life for anyone.
You can do all the suggesting you like—I prefer to do what God simply says.
I agree, but I seriously doubt we agree on what that means.
Just a bunch of postmodern neo-New Covenant baloney. You don't know "what they meant." You don't even know who "they" are.
At least say something responsive if you can't answer my questions.
.
Ziggy
Well-Known Member
Grailhunter
Well-Known Member
The Old Testament is the history of the Hebrews/Israelites/Jews and try as we might it is hard to put ourselves back in that ancient time period and under the conditions that existed. I am not going to judge God on why He set up the Mosaic Law so as to allow fathers to sell their daughters into sexual slavery or allow them to practice polygamy in as much as women were property…and if there was a need for that. The whole kill all that breath thing and kill the women that were not virgins and even the male children ….and take the virgins for yourselves…..which is rape by our standards....
As Christians we are not going to understand the morality of all that and I don’t think we are suppose to, but it sets up the conditions for Christ’s ministry. The holy seed comes forward; they are violent, arrogant, and cruel by our standards. But yet from that violent holy seed the Savior of the world was born.
Some Christians do not like Jews but usually it is because they do not understand the orthodoxy that they knew and lived by. And there is a certain religious political aspect to this but that is another topic. Yeshua wanted to convert the Jews but He was behind the eight ball from the start. Yet there were Pagans that saw the good in Christ and His ministry.
Matthew 15:21-28
Leaving that place, Jesus withdrew to the region of Tyre and Sidon. A Canaanite woman from that vicinity came to him, crying out, “Lord, Son of David, have mercy on me! My daughter is demon-possessed and suffering terribly.” Jesus did not answer a word. So his disciples came to him and urged him, “Send her away, for she keeps crying out after us.” He answered, “I was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel.” The woman came and knelt before him. “Lord, help me!” she said. He replied, “It is not right to take the children’s bread and toss it to the dogs.” “Yes it is, Lord,” she said. “Even the dogs eat the crumbs that fall from their master’s table.” Then Jesus said to her, “Woman, you have great faith! Your request is granted.” And her daughter was healed at that moment.
Of course this brings up some questions….another topic.
The Jews by no fault of there own came face to face with Christ’s ministry with some serious preset problematic beliefs. They were looking for a human warlord king to be the Messiah and He would take out there oppressors and put them in power….a very violent event. Instead what they got was a God that preached love, forgiveness, and salvation. The Jews were not looking for salvation or being saved from Hell. Most of them if Yeshua told them He was going to save them from Hell….they would reply what is Hell? God never threatened the Israelites with Hell in the Old Testament and they still do not believe in Hell or the Devil to this day. As far as Heaven, for the Jews that is where God lived and it was never offered to them in the Old Testament. And for them for a person to say they were the Son of God…a God.....was the worst sacrilegious transgression in their religion and execution was their only option. So what the Jews did was not surprising.
Matthew 26:63-66
The high priest said to him, “I charge you under oath by the living God: Tell us if you are the Messiah, the Son of God.” “You have said so,” Jesus replied. “But I say to all of you: From now on you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven.” Then the high priest tore his clothes and said, “He has spoken blasphemy! Why do we need any more witnesses? Look, now you have heard the blasphemy. What do you think?” “He is worthy of death,” they answered.
God’s love is hard to understand….But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. That goes for the Jews to….the holy seed. That connection is hard for us to understand and I think that God still loves the Jews. No matter how you cut it….the Mosaic Law was not a loving and forgiving Law and the Law was their life and it shaped every aspect of their culture. And you can see it in how they reacted to Christ and the Apostles.
But still the question is was it completely their fault. After millenniums of living the harsh reality of the Mosaic Law…was it entirely their fault that they could not understand what was going on and make the change. They brought an adulterous woman before Him and the Mosaic Law required for them to kill her….they would be in violation of the Mosaic Law if they did not kill her….it was not an option. Yet Christ had mercy on her and forgave her. That had to set them on their ear.
And along with everything else this set the Jewish leaders against Christ…and a lot them were not saved….and that is sad.
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Grailhunter
Well-Known Member
You are not going to find this in the scriptures. The only Ten Commandments that the scriptures say were written on the Tablets of the Testimony were the ones that God called the Ten Commandment in Exodus 34 and instructed Moses to write them on the Tablets. The actual Ten Commandments are listed in Exodus 34:10-28
27 Then the Lord said to Moses, “Write down these words, for in accordance with these words I have made a covenant with you and with Israel.” 28 Moses was there with the Lord forty days and forty nights without eating bread or drinking water. And he wrote on the tablets the words of the covenant—the Ten Commandments.
Randy Kluth
Well-Known Member
Why does that matter. I respond to public posts. You don't have to respond at all.
You should care if the Lord considers your approach insulting.
That is your judgment. If you don't think my points worth addressing, don't address them.
I've answered everything that I deem pertinent to the questions. My prerogative.
That's judgmentalism. You don't know my heart.
I've already directly addressed your points. You can find your very points here on Richard Anthony's site--it's not like we have to state and restate them--you borrow them and recycle them: CLICK
I will make 2 points here, and back them up from history.
1) Early in Church History Christians believed that the 10 Commandments were part of the Law of Moses.
2) Early in Church History Christians did not believe Christians have to observe the Jewish Sabbath Day.
The earliest Christians were law-abiding Jews in Jerusalem, who attended Jewish festivals and observed Temple rituals (Acts 2:1; 3:1; 15:5; 21:20). They apparently observed the seventh-day Sabbath, too. However, in the second, third and fourth centuries we find that almost all Christians observed Sunday — sometimes as a Sabbath-like day of worship meetings and rest, sometimes as a day for worship and work, sometimes in addition to the Sabbath and sometimes instead of the Sabbath.
CLICK
Just Martyr thought Israel the followers of fleshly rules, whereas Christians had the Law of God in their heart.
Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. Galatians 3:24
For we too would observe the fleshly circumcision, and the Sabbaths, and in short all the feasts, if we did not know for what reason they were commanded you – namely, on account of your transgressions and the hardness of your hearts. Justin Martyr (A.D. 160) Ante-Nicene Fathers vol.1 pg.203
CLICK
The apostles ordained, that “we should not judge any one in respect to meat or drink, or in regard to a feast day, or the new moons, or the sabbaths.” Whence then these contentions? whence these schisms? We keep the feast, but in the leaven of malice and wickedness, cutting in pieces the Church of God; and we preserve what belongs to its exterior, that we may cast away these better things, faith and love. We have heard from the prophetic words that these feasts and fasts are displeasing to the Lord.
from FRAGMENTS FROM THE LOST WRITINGS OF IRENAEUS 38
Since Sabbath Law is in the 10 Commandments, focus on the Sabbath Law as part of the Law of Moses was self-evident. Naturally, all would argue in favor of observing moral laws contained in the 10 Commandments. But treating Sabbath Law separately from Moral Law and in the context of the Law of Moses indicates that the Church Fathers saw the 10 Commandments as part of the Law of Moses.
There is a difference between claiming a *distinction* between the Law of Moses and the 10 Commandments and saying they are unconnected or different. Obviously, we can distinguish the 10 Commandments from the Law as a whole by pointing out that it is a subset of the Law of Moses. This is a distinction without an overall difference.
Are you talking about the Book of Hebrews? If so, yes, that book calls for a change in the Law, referring to the Law of Moses. The assumption is naturally made that the Law of Moses includes the 10 Commandments, since the Pentateuch recites them twice. The only people who think otherwise are your Sabbath-keeping sources.
As I said, all Christians would determine that the Moral Law is still applicable, as I myself have argued. But it is not part of the Law of Moses. The 10 Commandments contain that Moral Law, and as such, it is often recited as something we keep, it being that it represents the Moral Law, with the exception of the Sabbath Law.
I'm not going to take your word on something that is patently ridiculous! The Jews have held to 613 Mitzvot for many centuries, and they reiterated or included the same 10 commands contained in the 10 Commandments.
Where would any Christian in history challenge the Jewish sense that the Torah contained the 10 Commandments? A separate list of 10 Commandments is simply a different container for an exclusive set that is also contained in the total set.
I was confirmed a Lutheran. I was taught Luther's catechism and am aware of his support for the 10 Commandments. Again, Luther focused on the Moral Law represented by the 10 Commandments rather than treat them as they originally were, a subset contained in the Law of Moses.
In other words, he was reinterpreting the 10 Commandments in light of the New Covenant, and not establishing the Jewish Sabbath Law!
Again, you don't understand. Billy G. was answering a moral question about whether we still have an obligation to moral commandments when we are no longer under the Law of Moses? So he said yes, without considering that some would see that as sanctioning observance of the Law of Moses and Sabbath Law. Where did Billy G. ever say we have to keep the Jewish Sabbath? Let me answer that for you: he didn't.
Billy G. was sanctioning morality, not observance of the Law of Moses--not observance of Sabbath Law. He didn't anticipate when he said "Yes" to the 10 Commandments that some would see that as sanctioning Legalism. It was not a perfect response, nor are any of us perfect.
You're a very hostile, insulting person, Barney F. Your "apologies" aren't worth much, it seems?
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BarneyFife
Well-Known Member
Exo 20:8-11 KJV 8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. 9 Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work: 10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: 11 For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.
My apology only served to ratchet up your sophistry and passive aggressive verbosity.
And you are a pompous windbag, Randy K. :)
.
BlessedPeace
Well-Known Member
BarneyFife
Well-Known Member
Zao is life
Well-Known Member
You're obsessed with getting people banned when they disagree with your interpretations of the scriptures, I see. That is, when you are not abusing the Jews by using the horrible reality of the antisemitism they have to face in order to make yourself available to the accuser of the brethren and repeatedly accuse all and sundry of antisemitism just because they disagree with your interpretation of the scriptures.
Well, God sees. And God knows that it's a form of antisemitism in itself abusing the Jews by using the horrible reality of the antisemitism they have to face in order to make yourself available to the accuser of the brethren and repeatedly accuse all and sundry of antisemitism.
Be careful that your obsession with getting people banned, and your disgraceful insults of all who disagree with your interpretation of the scriptures, and your own sick form of antisemitism does not eventually get you banned from these forums - because you would deserve that banning.
Well, God sees. And God knows that it's a form of antisemitism in itself abusing the Jews by using the horrible reality of the antisemitism they have to face in order to make yourself available to the accuser of the brethren and repeatedly accuse all and sundry of antisemitism.
Be careful that your obsession with getting people banned, and your disgraceful insults of all who disagree with your interpretation of the scriptures, and your own sick form of antisemitism does not eventually get you banned from these forums - because you would deserve that banning.
Grailhunter
Well-Known Member
I am in good company....the Word of God....the scriptures say what the scriptures say and they don’t say what they don't say.
Beliefs, Truths, Facts....Beliefs can be anything.....so many either come up with their own beliefs separate from the scriptures or cling tightly to false beliefs....that is what my ministry is all about.....letting those that want the truth….see the truth. You are a good example, I gave you the scriptures.....you are more interested in make believe.
Randy Kluth
Well-Known Member
You're just proving my point. I think we're done? Do you realize that turning to carnal responses is a form of quitting? It's a capitulation to your very worst extinct, which is to stop caring what other think or to stop caring about what God Himself thinks.
I don't have to prove anything to you personally. I answer you because you make public statements that demand a response.
I've proven that neither Church Fathers nor Reformation leaders believed we need to keep the Law or the Sabbath. If it was thought at all that Christians could keep the Sabbath in the new format of Christianity, then it was not really the Jewish Sabbath at all, but rather, a non-legal adherence to the need to dedicate a day to meet together as believers.
The 10 Commandments, for most people, represent the Moral Law contained within the Law of Moses--a Law that remains in effect today under the New Covenant. But it is always assumed that these 10 Commandments have been extracted from the Law, and as such, reinterpreted in a New Covenant context that does not legally require Sabbath observance. I'm sorry you feel otherwise.
Ziggy
Well-Known Member
I don't mean to sound offensive, but I believe what Israel was worshipping for forty years in the wilderness wasn't the God we know today.
I been reading about Moloch and the star of Remphan, and I remember Jesus saying he saw Satan fall as lightening...
Satan appears as an angel of light and bramble bush's.
It's 5am working on my first cup of mojo here,
God is not the author of confusion and yet within the law itself is contradictions.
And yet the similarities are uncanny.
God fed the children in the wilderness manna. In another place it says God crushed the head of Leviathan and fed the children in the wilderness.
God sends His son to Israel and it is his flesh that is given for the life of the world.
Who was Israel following in the wilderness? They were not burning sacrifes and incense to God, they were worshipping the hosts of heaven.
They followed Baal and sacrificed their children in the fire. Which God said he never told them to do any such thing.
Is Israel in the wilderness being led by the snake in the garden? The law is the tree of knowledge of good and evil.
If they are bitten they look up to the idol of the snake and are healed, because they believed in the idol more than the creator.
In the NT we are being led by the Spirit of God. Grace is the tree of life.
If we sin we look upon the cross where Jesus gave his life for us and we are forgiven, because we believe in the creator more than the idol.
God told Moses not to make for themselves anything in heaven or on earth or in the sea or under the sea or any man or anything at all to bow down and worship.
Then he goes and tells Moses to make everything according to the pattern God showed him.
God told Adam don't eat. The serpent said, Just do it.
God writes his law in our hearts and minds, and Moses recieves the law written on stone.
I don't believe it was the Father that was leading them through the wilderness for forty years.
I believe it was the same dude that tempted Jesus in the wilderness for forty days and nights.
They took the bait, Jesus didn't.
I don't care about people's nationalities, so don't go calling me anti-semitic or whatever. I don't care if the people were one eyed purple people eaters, I still don't believe they made a covenant with God, they made a covenant with Death.
And Hell followed after.
And Jesus came to redeem them from Satan and translate them into his own Kingdom.
Redemption.
That's why Jesus came to Israel first. Because they were being held captive by Satan. And Jesus ransomed his own life to pull them out of the fire. And not only them, but us also who didn't know the workings of Satan, and yet we were still drawn to him like fish in a net.
Do men get grapes from thorns?
Bramble Bush.
God kept sending them prophets to warn them but they wouldn't listen. They killed them.
Last of all God sent his Son, and they killed him too. Or tried to.
Luk 20:9
Then began he to speak to the people this parable; A certain man planted a vineyard, and let it forth to husbandmen, and went into a far country for a long time.
Psa 74:14
Thou brakest the heads of leviathan in pieces, and gavest him to be meat to the people inhabiting the wilderness.
Angel food.
2Co 11:14
And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.
The middle east is a powder keg ready to explode. It will be interesting to see what is born out of it.
Will it be Peace or Destruction?
Heaven knows.
Come out of her my people.
hugs
Ziggy
Well-Known Member
I don't think so, but I can hear the frustration.
Censorship bites regardless what side of the aisle your on.
They have their reasons. I wasn't here when it happened so...
Out of respect for the members of the forum, I just try to bring it to the attention, so we all don't suffer for one man's sin.
LOL
seriously?
wow
Grace
Hugs
Brakelite
Well-Known Member
Ziggy
Well-Known Member
Gen 2:2
And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made.
Gen 2:3
And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.
From this time until Moses, the seventh day nor the name Sabbath is mentioned. Not one time. It belongs to God. It is His Day.
When did God tell Adam and Eve to rest from their labours? What work was Adam and Eve doing?
The Lord supplied all their needs in the garden. They didn't need to work until they listened to the serpent.
Then God put them back where he got him and he had to work to live.
The Lord took Israel out of Egypt. He provided for them food water, their clothing never got old, their shoes were in tact.
Until they came to the mountain and recieved a law of works.
The Lord saved them from bondage, just for them to wander in and take more bondage upon themselves.
They were FREE all they had to do was trust God and do what he said. But they wouldn't listen.
So God put Moses in charge. Even told Moses that he would make Moses a god unto Pharoah.
Moses was going to rule over Egypt.
Exo 3:11
And Moses said unto God, Who am I, that I should go unto Pharaoh, and that I should bring forth the children of Israel out of Egypt?
Exo 7:1
And the LORD said unto Moses, See, I have made thee a god to Pharaoh: and Aaron thy brother shall be thy prophet.
Rev 16:13
And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet.
Rev 19:20
And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.
Rev 20:10
And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
Dad is having trouble eating hard foods like meat. They have to puree everything for him.
He can chew but his digestive system isn't working right yet.
It looks awful and it tastes dreadful. So I asked if I could bring in some food with a little more grit, like sweet potato or chicken noodle soup. Yesterday we brought corn chowder for starters. It didn't seem to bother him. So today I'm going to look around for other ideas that are little stronger than the milk.
I don't know if he is ready for meat yet, even if it is grounded up. He never was much of a meat eater to begin with.
But we have to start somewhere.
Hugs
And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made.
Gen 2:3
And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.
From this time until Moses, the seventh day nor the name Sabbath is mentioned. Not one time. It belongs to God. It is His Day.
When did God tell Adam and Eve to rest from their labours? What work was Adam and Eve doing?
The Lord supplied all their needs in the garden. They didn't need to work until they listened to the serpent.
Then God put them back where he got him and he had to work to live.
The Lord took Israel out of Egypt. He provided for them food water, their clothing never got old, their shoes were in tact.
Until they came to the mountain and recieved a law of works.
The Lord saved them from bondage, just for them to wander in and take more bondage upon themselves.
They were FREE all they had to do was trust God and do what he said. But they wouldn't listen.
So God put Moses in charge. Even told Moses that he would make Moses a god unto Pharoah.
Moses was going to rule over Egypt.
Exo 3:11
And Moses said unto God, Who am I, that I should go unto Pharaoh, and that I should bring forth the children of Israel out of Egypt?
Exo 7:1
And the LORD said unto Moses, See, I have made thee a god to Pharaoh: and Aaron thy brother shall be thy prophet.
Rev 16:13
And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet.
Rev 19:20
And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.
Rev 20:10
And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
Dad is having trouble eating hard foods like meat. They have to puree everything for him.
He can chew but his digestive system isn't working right yet.
It looks awful and it tastes dreadful. So I asked if I could bring in some food with a little more grit, like sweet potato or chicken noodle soup. Yesterday we brought corn chowder for starters. It didn't seem to bother him. So today I'm going to look around for other ideas that are little stronger than the milk.
I don't know if he is ready for meat yet, even if it is grounded up. He never was much of a meat eater to begin with.
But we have to start somewhere.
Hugs
As we look around ourselves for the last several years, the oft-repeated phrase still rings true; "Truth does not need protection, but lies do." Banning any topic reveals something.
Ziggy
Well-Known Member
I asked for a repeal, I'm still waiting for an answer.
It's all just mathematics anyways.
Eventually it all comes out in the wash.
But for now, If we don't want to be banned or have something we talk about locked,
I guess we aught to obey the Law of the forum.
Just one more law to add to the world's myriad list of laws...
There's more coming too. Watch and see.
Something about a new Patriot's Act in the works.
We see how well the last one worked, lol
Enjoy the forum while we have it. Something wicked this way comes.
Hugs
This wicked thing coming will be far worse than being blocked from a forum, I think.
Grailhunter
Well-Known Member
You are right….
A significant number of the Israelites…Jews worshipped an assortment of gods and goddesses. The attraction was the perceived blessings of these gods and goddesses on the existing nations….empires. Powerful and well feed and dressed with lavish cities…..thousands of horses and camels. They were told they were God’s people yet they were wandering hungry in the wilderness more or less on foot ….some lost faith in different ways….Sure they knew that the wandering was a punishment but then was it because Yahweh was weak compared to the other gods?
Then if you read the story of the kings some kings would get rid of the idols and the Pagan places of worship ….except for the high places of worship...there is a story behind that and there were Jews that were pretty loyal….
Around 586 BC Jerusalem falls to the Babylonians and the Temple is destroyed and the city burnt…Some of the Jews travel to Egypt to escape this and God sends them a message through the prophet Jeremiah…..
This word came to Jeremiah concerning all the Jews living in Lower Egypt—in Migdol, Tahpanhes and Memphis—and in Upper Egypt: “This is what the Lord Almighty, the God of Israel, says: You saw the great disaster I brought on Jerusalem and on all the towns of Judah. Today they lie deserted and in ruins because of the evil they have done. They aroused my anger by burning incense to and worshiping other gods that neither they nor you nor your ancestors ever knew. Again and again I sent my servants the prophets, who said, ‘Do not do this detestable thing that I hate!’ But they did not listen or pay attention; they did not turn from their wickedness or stop burning incense to other gods. Therefore, my fierce anger was poured out; it raged against the towns of Judah and the streets of Jerusalem and made them the desolate ruins they are today.
“Now this is what the Lord God Almighty, the God of Israel, says: Why bring such great disaster on yourselves by cutting off from Judah the men and women, the children and infants, and so leave yourselves without a remnant? Why arouse my anger with what your hands have made, burning incense to other gods in Egypt, where you have come to live? You will destroy yourselves and make yourselves a curse and an object of reproach among all the nations on earth. Have you forgotten the wickedness committed by your ancestors and by the kings and queens of Judah and the wickedness committed by you and your wives in the land of Judah and the streets of Jerusalem? To this day they have not humbled themselves or shown reverence, nor have they followed my law and the decrees I set before you and your ancestors. “Therefore this is what that the Lord Almighty, the God of Israel, says: I am determined to bring disaster on you and to destroy all Judah. I will take away the remnant of Judah who were determined to go to Egypt to settle there. They will all perish in Egypt; they will fall by the sword or die from famine. From the least to the greatest, they will die by sword or famine. They will become a curse and an object of horror, a curse and an object of reproach. I will punish those who live in Egypt with the sword, famine and plague, as I punished Jerusalem. None of the remnant of Judah who have gone to live in Egypt will escape or survive to return to the land of Judah, to which they long to return and live; none will return except a few fugitives.”
Then all the men who knew that their wives were burning incense to other gods, along with all the women who were present—a large assembly—and all the people living in Lower and Upper Egypt, said to Jeremiah, “We will not listen to the message you have spoken to us in the name of the Lord!
We will certainly do everything we said we would: We will burn incense to the Queen of Heaven and will pour out drink offerings to her just as we and our ancestors, our kings and our officials did in the towns of Judah and in the streets of Jerusalem. At that time we had plenty of food and were well off and suffered no harm. But ever since we stopped burning incense to the Queen of Heaven and pouring out drink offerings to her, we have had nothing and have been perishing by sword and famine.”
The women added, “When we burned incense to the Queen of Heaven and poured out drink offerings to her, did not our husbands know that we were making cakes impressed with her image and pouring out drink offerings to her?”
Then Jeremiah said to all the people, both men and women, who were answering him, “Did not the Lord remember and call to mind the incense burned in the towns of Judah and the streets of Jerusalem by you and your ancestors, your kings and your officials and the people of the land? When the Lord could no longer endure your wicked actions and the detestable things you did, your land became a curse and a desolate waste without inhabitants, as it is today. Because you have burned incense and have sinned against the Lord and have not obeyed him or followed his law or his decrees or his stipulations, this disaster has come upon you, as you now see.”
Then Jeremiah said to all the people, including the women, “Hear the word of the Lord, all you people of Judah in Egypt. This is what the Lord Almighty, the God of Israel, says: You and your wives have done what you said you would do when you promised, ‘We will certainly carry out the vows we made to burn incense and pour out drink offerings to the Queen of Heaven.’
“Go ahead then, do what you promised! Keep your vows! But hear the word of the Lord, all you Jews living in Egypt: ‘I swear by my great name,’ says the Lord, ‘that no one from Judah living anywhere in Egypt will ever again invoke my name or swear, “As surely as the Sovereign Lord lives.” For I am watching over them for harm, not for good; the Jews in Egypt will perish by sword and famine until they are all destroyed. Those who escape the sword and return to the land of Judah from Egypt will be very few. Then the whole remnant of Judah who came to live in Egypt will know whose word will stand—mine or theirs. “‘This will be the sign to you that I will punish you in this place,’ declares the Lord, ‘so that you will know that my threats of harm against you will surely stand.’ This is what the Lord says: ‘I am going to deliver Pharaoh Hophra king of Egypt into the hands of his enemies who want to kill him, just as I gave Zedekiah king of Judah into the hands of Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon, the enemy who wanted to kill him.’” Jeremiah 44:1-30
So it is not just the wandering in the wilderness….all along there were Jews that would worship other gods and goddesses. From the time at Mt. Sinai in Exodus and all through the Old Testament. Then you have the time between the testaments and that is another story.
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