WHY I COULD NEVER CHOOSE TO BE A PROTESTANT. (one stupid thread title is as good as another)

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epostle1

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I'm sure Nancy must be impressed by that response. :-(
I really don't care. If phony man can post a list of hate and lies, then I see no reason why I can't post a list of good apologetic material. Nancy may have never seen such material before. I will post all 150.

71. Evangelicalism's over-emphasis on the "imminent end" of the age has often led to a certain "pie-in-the sky" mentality, to the detriment of social, political, ethical, and economic sensibilities here on earth.

72. Protestant thought has the defining characteristic of being "dichotomous," i.e., it separates ideas into more or less exclusive and mutually-hostile camps, when in fact many of the dichotomies are simply complementary rather than contradictory. Protestantism is "either-or," whereas Catholicism takes a "both-and" approach. Examples follow:

73. Protestantism pits the Word (the Bible, preaching) against sacraments.

74. Protestantism sets up inner devotion and piety against the Liturgy.

75. Protestantism opposes spontaneous worship to form prayers.

76. Protestantism separates the Bible from the Church.

77. Protestantism creates the false dichotomy of Bible vs. Tradition.

78. Protestantism pits Tradition against the Holy Spirit.

79. Protestantism considers Church authority and individual liberty and conscience contradictory.

80. Protestantism (esp. Luther) sets up the Old Testament against the New Testament, even though Jesus did not do so (Mt 5:17-19; Mk 7:8-11; Lk 24:27; Lk 24:44; Jn 5:45-47).

81. On equally unbiblical grounds, Protestantism opposes law to grace.

82. Protestantism creates a false dichotomy between symbolism and sacramental reality (e.g., baptism, Eucharist).

83. Protestantism separates the Individual from Christian community (1 Cor 12:14-27).

84. Protestantism pits the veneration of saints against the worship of God. Catholic theology doesn't permit worship of saints in the same fashion as that directed towards God. Saints are revered and honored, not adored, as only God the Creator can be.

85. The anti-historical outlook of many Protestants leads to individuals thinking that the Holy Spirit is speaking to them, but has not, in effect, spoken to the multitudes of Christians for 1500 years before Protestantism began!

86. Flaws in original Protestant thought have led to even worse errors in reaction. E.g., extrinsic justification, devised to assure the predominance of grace, came to prohibit any outward sign of its presence ("faith vs. works," "sola fide"). Calvinism, with its cruel God, turned men off to such an extent that they became Unitarians (as in New England). Many founders of cults of recent origin started out Calvinist (Jehovah's Witnesses, Christian Science, The Way International, etc.).

87. Evangelicalism is unbiblically obsessed (in typically American fashion) with celebrities (TV Evangelists).

88. Evangelicalism is infatuated with the false idea that great numbers in a congregation (or rapid growth) are a sign of God's presence in a special way, and His unique blessing. They forget that Mormonism is also growing by leaps and bounds. God calls us to faithfulness rather than to "success," obedience, not flattering statistics.

89. Evangelicalism often emphasizes numerical growth rather than individual spiritual growth.

90. Evangelicalism is presently obsessed with self-fulfillment, self-help, and oftentimes, outright selfishness, rather than the traditional Christian stress on suffering, sacrifice, and service.

91. Evangelicalism has a truncated and insufficient view of the place of suffering in the Christian life. Instead, "health-and-wealth" and "name-it-and-claim-it" movements within Pentecostal Protestantism are flourishing, which have a view of possessions not in harmony with the Bible and Christian Tradition.

92. Evangelicalism has, by and large, adopted a worldview which is, in many ways, more capitalist than Christian. Wealth and personal gain is sought more than godliness, and is seen as a proof of God's favor, as in Puritan, and secularized American thought, over against the Bible and Christian teaching.

93. Evangelicalism is increasingly tolerating far-left political outlooks not in accord with Christian views, esp. at its seminaries and colleges.

94. Evangelicalism is increasingly tolerating theological heterodoxy and liberalism, to such an extent that many evangelical leaders are alarmed, and predict a further decay of orthodox standards.

95. "Positive confession" movements in Pentecostal evangelicalism have adopted views of God (in effect) as a "cosmic bellhop," subject to man's frivolous whims and desires of the moment, thus denying God's absolute sovereignty and prerogative to turn down any of man's improper prayer requests (Jas 4:3; 1 Jn 5:14).

96. The above sects usually teach that anyone can be healed who has enough "faith," contrary to Christian Tradition and the Bible (e.g., Job, St. Paul's "thorn in the flesh," usu. considered a disease by most Protestant commentators).

97. Evangelicalism, by its own self-critiques, is badly infected with pragmatism, the false philosophical view that "whatever works is true, or right." The gospel, esp. on TV, is sold in the same way that McDonalds hawks hamburgers. Technology, mass-market and public relations techniques have largely replaced personal pastoral care and social concern for the downtrodden, irreligious, and unchurched masses.

98. Sin, in evangelicalism, is increasingly seen as a psychological failure or a lack of self-esteem, rather than the willful revolt against God that it is.

99. Protestantism, in all essential elements, merely borrows wholesale from Catholic Tradition, or distorts the same. All doctrines upon which Catholics and Protestants agree, are clearly Catholic in origin (Trinity, Virgin Birth, Resurrection, 2nd Coming, Canon of the Bible, heaven, hell, etc.). Those where Protestantism differs are usually distortions of Catholic forerunners. E.g., Quakerism is a variant of Catholic Quietism. Calvinism is an over-obsession with the Catholic idea of the sovereignty of God, but taken to lengths beyond what Catholicism ever taught (denial of free will, total depravity, double predestination, etc.). Protestant dichotomies such as faith vs. works, come from nominalism, which was itself a corrupt form of Scholasticism, never dogmatically sanctioned by the Catholic Church. Whatever life or truth is present in each Protestant idea, always is derived from Catholicism, which is the fulfillment of the deepest and best aspirations within Protestantism.
 

Marymog

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Well Mary...your question never changes does it. You just repeat the same thing over...just like Twinc does.
After all these months, as you are still asking I guess God never did give you an answer.
For all I know you were asking the same question for not only months but for years!!

Even though , I remember once trying to explain to you that the bible is an over all picture...not just one view from one position.
I even used the elephant analogy .... 4 peoples descriptions from four different positions from where they were each standing. None wrong.
the elephant did indeed have a tusk, he did indeed have a tail, he did indeed have four legs and he did indeed have big ears...but, not one of those descriptions was wrong, but not one of those descriptions was the whole elephant...or the whole picture.
We are each at different places in our walk..we each have a different view from where we stand. God is dealing with us each very differently.

Take off your blinkers Mary. You have tunnel vision.
You are not a foolish woman...so ...I have to just guess that you ask the same questions over and over just to try and annoy people...but sadly not as a genuine inquiring question.

No doubt, in a few months we will be back here again at this very same place once more.:rolleyes:
Thank you BG,

Maybe my question never changes because the same false belief keeps being repeated on this forum. For you see BG.....the false belief is FIRST spouted and then I respond to it. Do you every question or go after the person who FIRST spouts these false beliefs? Or are you just out to 'get Mary'?

You see BG.....Most everyone on this forum seems to believe they are personally being guided by the Holy Spirit when they form and articulate their belief's/dogmas/doctrines or interpretation's of scripture. That simply means that someone is confused. It is either the Holy Spirit that is confused or those on this forum. The entire bible is not an "all over picture" like you seem to believe. It is the Truth and only One Truth....not the multiple truths of the individual members of this website.

When Jesus says, "Truly, truly I say to you...." that means there is only ONE TRUTH in His statement. Not multiple truths that sooooo many people on this forum spout. That means that your elephant analogy is not germane to this matter. There are not four different TRUTHS of scripture. Using your elephant analogy in this setting suggest all 4 people have the Truth when all their "truths" are different because they all have a different view. That makes ZERO sense and is opposite of what scripture says.

I agree with you BG...I am not a foolish woman. I am the woman who ask tough questions based on scripture and the statements of the person I am questioning. Let me ask you BG....Have you noticed what happens when I ask those tough questions and we get two or three layers into unpeeling that onion? The person I am questioning (usually the men) ALWAYS turns it around on me like I have done something wrong by asking them tough questions that they can't answer. The closer I get to the heart of that onion the more defensive they become and they then shut down the conversation. I NEVER shut it down. Soooo maybe you should take your suggestion that I might be trying to annoy others on this website and ask them why THEY shut down the conversation....not me. If asking tough questions is annoying then call me annoying ;). If they were easy questions they would get answered... instead they run away like cowards.

I agree with you BG....God is dealing with us each very differently. That does not mean that the same passage from scripture has 4 different Truths. That means we all have our unique personalities and experiences and He uses that uniqueness to give us The Truth...not different truths.

So I am asking you BG to take off your blinders and see that there are not 4 different Truths of scripture just because 4 different people experience it from where they are each standing. You suggest that none of them are wrong. Well, your suggestion is wrong.

Mary
 

Marymog

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God is NOT the author of confusion. When believers hold conflicting and even contradictory beliefs if they have the Holy Spirit in them it is because some of them or all of them are in some measure quenching the Holy Spirit of God. The result is a mixed answer consisting of some truth and some falsehood. Of course, some people while claiming to have the Holy Spirit of God in them do not and therefore do not hear from God at all. This last is the problem as I see with many who say they are believers and includes both Catholics and Protestants and others.
As to the reformers to which you refer, how would I know that they were or were not filled with the Holy Spirit unless God told me? He has not.
Do you have the quenching of the Holy Spirit?

Mary
 

Triumph1300

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We need some fresh threads.
I feel like yawning every time I come on Site now, and read the same old endless list of thread, and even the posts in them are the same now in each thread. "Certain people" just repeat and repeat the same stuff. YAWNNN

I started a new one on the annual Day of Prayer at the White House.
No responses on it.
But maybe that's good otherwise it might still end up as an another mudslinging competition?
 

BreadOfLife

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We have had this discussion many times. You just needed to start something with me after you baled from the Lords Supper debate. Let it go. Keep offering that cracker without wine and choking your parishoners.

Stranger
In your blind spiritual pride and arrogance you have refused my explanations about the Body and Blood of Christ being offered to ALL worthy recipients in the Catholic Church. You ave instead insisted that the cup is refused to everybody but the priest - even AFTER I assured you that, as an Extraotrdinary minister of Holy Communion - I know differently.

Now, yo're just rejecting God.
You can't claim "ignorance" any more . . .
 

BreadOfLife

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Have a little wine with that cracker. That's more than the Roman laity get.
Stranger
Yup - when all else fails and yo're LOST the debate - the only thing that you can desperately to cling to is that same dishonest mantra . . .
 

Marymog

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I even used the elephant analogy .... 4 peoples descriptions from four different positions from where they were each standing. None wrong. the elephant did indeed have a tusk, he did indeed have a tail, he did indeed have four legs and he did indeed have big ears...but, not one of those descriptions was wrong, but not one of those descriptions was the whole elephant...or the whole picture.
Your analogy reminds me of a Buddhist parable:

A ruler in northern India summoned some blind men of his kingdom and directed each of them to touch an elephant. He told them, "That is what an elephant is like." Some touched the elephant’s head, some its ear, some its trunk, some its hindquarters, and others the hair at the tip of its tail. Finally, the king asked the blind men what an elephant is like, and they each answered according to part he had felt. They answered: "It is like a pot," "It is like a plow handle," "It is like pillar," "A mortar," "A broom," and so forth. The blind men began to quarrel about who was correct, striking one another with their fists, which delighted the king.

Your analogy AND the theme of your entire post has a name for it. It's called relativism: "There are no absolute truths or values; every person has his or her own truth".

Relativism is one of the greatest threats to Christianity today.

Mary
 

amadeus

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Do you have the quenching of the Holy Spirit?

Mary
Do you mean, have I ever quenched the Holy Spirit?

Yes, everyone who has sinned since they received the Holy Spirit has quenched the Holy Spirit. When a person stops quenching the Holy Spirit, he stops sinning. Quenching the Holy Spirit stops growth toward God for the time the Spirit is quenched but it does not make it impossible to grow further... unless a person has committed what God would consider an unpardonable sin.

What is this growth? Becoming more like Jesus!

"Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is." I John 3:2
 

Marymog

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Mary, what does Jesus' choice of sinful disciples have to do with anything? He chose them, taught them, charged them, and sent them into the world to "teaching all things whatsoever I have commanded you". The RCC teaches all things that are contrary to Scripture, agree with paganism, and insists that anyone who disagrees is a heretic worthy of death.

Homosexuality/pedophilia/statutory rape doesn't condemn a church - except if its leadership sanctioned, as in the case of the RCC.

A blind man can see Catholicism has baptized so much paganism that it can never be confused with the church of Jesus Christ depicted in Scripture. Shaved head? Celibacy? Repetitious prayer? So called "Holy Water"? Dagon (Satan) "fish hat"? Just a few examples of how the Papal Antichrist has corrupted the church.
You are so blinded by hate and lies how can you even see the screen these words are written on?;)

I have no reason to engage with a man who's heart who has been so hardened that it has turned to stone. However, I am not mad at you. It was the men before you who spewed these lies. You soaked up their lies like a sponge. Instead of doing your own research, you rely on theirs. I encourage you to do your own research.

Mary
 

Marymog

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Do you mean, have I ever quenched the Holy Spirit?
Yes, everyone who has sinned since they received the Holy Spirit has quenched the Holy Spirit. When a person stops quenching the Holy Spirit, he stops sinning. Quenching the Holy Spirit stops growth toward God for the time the Spirit is quenched but it does not make it impossible to grow further... unless a person has committed what God would consider an unpardonable sin.
What is this growth? Becoming more like Jesus!
"Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is." I John 3:2
I see now. You are using the word quenched to mean extinguish. I apologize, I misunderstood your use of the word.

What if I do not believe I am quenching the Holy Spirit but you insist that scripture clearly says that I am? You further insist that if I don't stop I will go to hell. Will I go to hell?

Mary
 

amadeus

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I see now. You are using the word quenched to mean extinguish. I apologize, I misunderstood your use of the word.

What if I do not believe I am quenching the Holy Spirit but you insist that scripture clearly says that I am? You further insist that if I don't stop I will go to hell. Will I go to hell?

Mary
It is what you really are doing that matters and the intention of your heart. What I insist or what you insist does not matter. What God knows is what matters. Who else knows all that is in our heart?

I would never insist that anyone is going to hell, no matter what they were or were not doing. If they never received Life then they will simply remain dead. If they did receive Life what happened from that point would depend upon what they did with what they had. I am not the judge in any case.
 
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epostle1

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I never read long posts.

Long posts are usually copied and pasted from internet sites.
I've never denied it. You never read long posts because you are accustomed to carnival barkers and sound bytes. Catholicism requires THINKING. I post the source of my long posts, unlike many who don't. The whole purpose of me posting 150 reasons why I am a Catholic is to counter the stupid thread title "why I could never be a Catholic." If people want to attack Catholicism with stupid thread titles, then I can turn the tables and counter with intelligent reasons that no one has refuted.

100. One of Protestantism's foundational principles is sola Scriptura, which is neither a biblical (see below), historical (nonexistent until the 16th century), nor logical (it's self-defeating) idea:

101. The Bible doesn't contain the whole of Jesus' teaching, or Christianity, as many Protestants believe (Mk 4:33; Mk 6:34; Lk 24:15-16; Lk 24:25-27; Jn 16:12; Jn 20:30; Jn 21:25; Acts 1:2-3).

102. Sola Scriptura is an abuse of the Bible, since it is a use of the Bible contrary to its explicit and implicit testimony about itself and Tradition. An objective reading of the Bible leads one to Tradition and the Catholic Church, rather than the opposite. The Bible is, in fact, undeniably a Christian Tradition itself!.

103. The NT was neither written nor received as the Bible at first, but only gradually so (i.e., early Christianity couldn't have believed in sola Scriptura like current Protestants, unless it referred to the OT alone).

104. Tradition is not a bad word in the Bible. Gk. paradosis refers to something handed on from one to another (good or bad). Good (Christian) Tradition is spoken of in 1 Cor 11:2; 2 Thess 2:15, 2 Thess 3:6, and Col 2:8. In the latter it is contrasted with traditions of men.

105. Christian Tradition, according to the Bible, can be oral as well as written (2 Thess 2:15; 2 Tim 1:13-14; 2 Tim 2:2). St. Paul makes no qualitative distinction between the two forms.

106. The phrases "word of God" or "word of the Lord" in Acts and the epistles almost always refer to oral preaching, not to the Bible itself. Much of the Bible was originally oral (e.g., Jesus' entire teaching- He wrote nothing -St. Peter's sermon at Pentecost, etc.).
.d as the Bible at first, but only gradually so (i.e., early Christianity couldn't have believed in sola Scriptura like current Protestants, unless it referred to the OT alone).

104. Tradition is not a bad word in the Bible. Gk. paradosis refers to something handed on from one to another (good or bad). Good (Christian) Tradition is spoken of in 1 Cor 11:2; 2 Thess 2:15, 2 Thess 3:6, and Col 2:8. In the latter it is contrasted with traditions of men.

105. Christian Tradition, according to the Bible, can be oral as well as written (2 Thess 2:15; 2 Tim 1:13-14; 2 Tim 2:2). St. Paul makes no qualitative distinction between the two forms.

106. The phrases "word of God" or "word of the Lord" in Acts and the epistles almost always refer to oral preaching, not to the Bible itself. Much of the Bible was originally oral (e.g., Jesus' entire teaching- He wrote nothing -St. Peter's sermon at Pentecost, etc.).

107. Contrary to many Protestant claims, Jesus didn't condemn all tradition any more than St. Paul did. E.g., Mt 15:3,6; Mk 7:8-9, Mk 7:13, where He condemns corrupt Pharisaical tradition only. He says "your tradition".

108. Gk. paradidomi, or "delivering" Christian, apostolic Tradition occurs in Lk 1:1-2; Rom 6:17; 1 Cor 11:23; 1 Cor 15:3; 2 Pet 2:21; Jude 3. Paralambano, or "receiving" Christian Tradition occurs in 1 Cor 15:1-2; Gal 1:9,12; 1 Thess 2:13.

109. The concepts of "Tradition," "gospel," "word of God," "doctrine," and "the Faith" are essentially synonymous, and all are predominantly oral. E.g., in the Thessalonian epistles alone St. Paul uses 3 of these interchangeably (2 Thess 2:15; 2 Thess 3:6; 1 Thess 2:9,13 (cf. Gal 1:9; Acts 8:14). If Tradition is a dirty word, then so is "gospel" and "word of God"!

110. St. Paul, in 1 Tim 3:15, puts the Church above Bible as the grounds for truth, as in Catholicism.

111. Protestantism's chief "proof text" for sola Scriptura, 2 Tim 3:16, fails, since it says that the Bible is profitable, but not sufficient for learning and righteousness. Catholicism agrees it is great for these purposes, but not exclusively so, as in Protestantism. Secondly, when St. Paul speaks of "Scripture" here, the NT didn't yet exist (not definitively for over 300 more years), thus he is referring to the OT only. This would mean that NT wasn't necessary for the rule of faith, if sola Scriptura were true, and if it were supposedly alluded to in this verse!

112. The above 11 factors being true, Catholicism maintains that all its Tradition is consistent with the Bible, even where the Bible is mute or merely implicit on a subject. For Catholicism, every doctrine need not be found primarily in the Bible, for this is Protestantism's principle of sola Scriptura. On the other hand, most Catholic theologians claim that all Catholic doctrines can be found in some fashion in the Bible, in kernel form, or by (usu. extensive) inference.

113. As thoughtful evangelical scholars have pointed out, an unthinking sola Scriptura position can turn into "bibliolatry," almost a worship of the Bible rather than God who is its Author. This mentality is similar to the Muslim view of Revelation, where no human elements whatsoever were involved. Sola Scriptura,, rightly understood from a more sophisticated Protestant perspective, means that the Bible is the final authority in Christianity, not the record of all God has said and done, as many evangelicals believe.

114. Christianity is unavoidably and intrinsically historical. All the events of Jesus' life (Incarnation, Crucifixion, Resurrection, Ascension, etc.) were historical, as was the preaching of the apostles. Tradition, therefore, of some sort, is unavoidable, contrary to numerous shortsighted Protestant claims that sola Scriptura annihilates Tradition.
This is true both for matters great (ecclesiology, trinitarianism, justification) and small (church budgets, type of worship music, lengths of sermons, etc.). Every denial of a particular tradition involves a bias (hidden or open) towards one's own alternate tradition (E.g., if all Church authority is spurned, even individualistic autonomy is a "tradition," which ought to be defended as a Christian view in some fashion).




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Helen

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I started a new one on the annual Day of Prayer at the White House.
No responses on it.
But maybe that's good otherwise it might still end up as an another mudslinging competition?

Sorry :(
I didn't even have your new thread on my radar ...the best way to get a response seems to be to do the usual name link @1234 in your opening post...then the person gets an Alert ...
Myself and bbyrd00 have agreed that we don't get some Alerts, so we miss things :(
Sorry about that.
 
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Triumph1300

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I've never denied it. You never read long posts because you are accustomed to carnival barkers and sound bytes.

I don't read long posts on my computer screen because it's a pain for the eyes plus I have better things to do besides reading the same opinions over and over. Copied and pasted at that.
 
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aspen

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The Quaker church I am attending just hired a minister ordained as a southern Baptist - i am looking forward to hearing the first sermon.
 
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