Amen! While I regularly read the whole Bible, Song of Solomon, is one of those I have on an extra reading list so that I read it more often than most other OT Books.
Why do you believe the Bible is 100% inspired?
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First I believe a complete outline of the book helps. This comes from the Scofield Study Bible.
Title: 1:1
Canticle I: A young Bride, a Shulamite girl 1:2-6
Canticle II. The perplexed Bride 1:7-8
Canticle III. Mutual admiration 1:9-17
Canticle IV. The Shulamite is comforted 2:1-7
Canticle V. The Shulamite describes a happy visit 2:8-17
Canticle VI. The Shulamite tells of her troubled dream 3:1-5
Canticle VII. Solomon has his bride brought to Jerusalem 3:6-11
Canticle VIII. Bridegroom expresses his message of love 4:1-7
Canticle IX. Bridegrom's proposal and the Shulamites acceptance 4:8-5:1
Canticle X. The Bride tell of another distressing dream 5:2-6:3
Canticle XI. The Bridegroom praises His Bride 6:4-7:10
Canticle XII The Bride expresses her longing to visit her home 7:11-8:4
Canticle XIII The past is recalled when Baal-harmon is revisited 8:5-14
J. Sidlow Baxter in his book 'Explore the Book' says that (Psalms 45) is a key to understanding (Song of Solomon) as it too is a royal song of love. You might look into it.
I see where you said you have Watchman Nee's book on (Song of Solomon). I haven't read his but wish I had as I know it would be good.
Concerning the verses you ask about you see first in (SOS 4:12) that the bride is spoken of as an inclosed or locked garden. This speaks to the brides inaccessibility as a virgin. Then in (4:16-5:1) the bride surrenders her virginity to the bridegroom and the garden is his. Thus the consummation of the marriage.
The verses you ask about occur after the consummation of the marriage. And they involve a dream which the bride has. It addresses an indifference in the Bride which has grown over time. In other words, the honeymoon affects have worn off. In this dream, the Bridegroom deisires access to her again. (5:2) But she is not all that interested. (5:3-4) So she tarries. When she finally decided to give him entrance, he had turned away due to her disinterest. (5:5-6) Now she seeks Him but he cannot be found. She wanders outside into the city and is wounded by people there. (5:7-8)
I can find no better application of these verses then that of John N. Darby in his book (Synopsis of the Books of the Bible, Believers Bookshelf, 2005). Concerning the Bride he says, "The re-assurred heart, certain of His love, exhibits its slothfulness. Alas, what hearts are ours! We turn again to ourselves as soon as we are comforted by the testimony of the Lord's love. The Bridegroom's sensitive and righteous heart acts upon her word, and He retires from one who does not listen to His voice. She arises to learn her own folly....How often, alas, do we act in the same manner with regard to the voice of His Spirit and the manifestations of His love!" p. (295)
"What a dreadful loss, but through grace, what a lesson! She is chastised by those who watch for the peace of Jerusalem. What had she to do in the streets at night, she whom the Bridegroom had sought at home? And now her very affection exposes her to reproof,...placing her in a position that proved she had slighted her Beloved. If we are not in the peaceful enjoyment of the love of Christ, where He meets with us in grace, the very strength of our affection and our self-condemnation causes us to exhibit this affection out of its place,...and bring us into connection with those who judge our position." p. (295-296)
"But if sloth had prevented her receiving Him in the visitations of His love, her heart, now disciplined by the watchman and turned again to her Beloved, overflowing with His praises, being taught of God, knows where to find him." p. (296)
Stranger
We must remember that the original Hebrew did not have punctuation. I think it's reasonable to interpret it as two distincts periods of time consisting first of one of seven years and then another of sixty two.
The first messiah was Cyrus, of course. There is no mystery about that. Isaiah predicted him by name.
Isaiah 45:1 Thus saith the Lord to his anointed, to Cyrus, whose right hand I have holden, to subdue nations before him; and I will loose the loins of kings, to open before him the two leaved gates; and the gates shall not be shut;
The second messiah may be harder to grasp; but any king who had been anointed as king could be called this. David referred to Saul as "messiah" or anointed since he was. This second messiah in Daniel's prophecy is almost surely a reference to Agrippa II, who was king of Judea at the time of the destruction of the Second Temple.
The word could mean moat in some cases. It can also mean a ditch. For all I know, it could mean the drainage channel system dug under the Temple Mount, some of which were recently discovered.
Massive reservoir discovered beneath Western Wall
It could also refer to a ditch dug in strategic places as protection against invaders. If you built up high to begin with, you could still make it harder to get over a wall by digging a ditch next to the wall.
Bobby Jo
Well-Known Member
Well, if Cyrus is raised from the dead to live again in the end-times (Ref. 12:4 & 9), then you could be correct. But I don't think so ...
Have you considered END-TIMES FULFILLMENTS?
Bobby Jo
Now Psalm 45, that's an amazing song! What a beautiful song which speaks in such a loving and lovely way of our love with God, His love for us, and the beauty and purity of His people!
Just a beautiful rendition of what God has done, and is going to do for us.
Obviously I picked the spot I did as the most difficult, and your reply from Darby is much in line with the general tone that I hear and read. But I always reflect on the fact that He has promised, He will never leave me, nor forsake me. Even if I feel far from Jesus, not that I ever am, but even if I feel that way, the moment I return in my mind, in my heart, to Him, He is here. And I have a complete disconnect on this.
That's been how it's gone with me, throughout the rest of the book.
I see that in Ruth. I can see many New Covenant teachings illustrated throughout the Book of Ruth. It's just chock full of them! The whole book reads that way, at least to me.
I believe this Song tells a story. I just don't know what it is. I appreciate your replies!
Much love!
I don't see a need to have Cyrus resurrected at the time of the destruction of the Second Temple or at any other time for that matter. I don't know which you mean when write of "the end-times." At any rate, anyone anointed as king could be called messiah. If it was that easy to understand, I guess it wouldn't have been called sealed, would it? Apparently, it's still sealed for some people even though the events predicted happened. Similarly, Revelation, although not said to be sealed, still confounds most who read it.
I think it means the end of that age -- at the end of the era being discussed. A similar idea is expressed in the New Testament when it speaks of the "end of the world" or "end of the age". Confusion sprang up when the Greek word aion was translated as "world" when it really means "world age" or simply "age." That "world" or "world age" or "age" ended, as predicted, on schedule. You seem to think the end-times refers to future events?
Matthew 24:2 And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.
3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world <aion meaning age or world-age>?
Jesus then gives some signs that the end was drawing near:
15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand) .
Many early Christians living in Jerusalem at the time escaped because of this warning.
That's what gives me such a disconnect, it seems to have no resemblence to my love relationship with God.
Much love!
Bobby Jo
Well-Known Member
NOTHING in the book of Daniel is prophetically related to Cyrus. Certainly Cyrus is cited in his historical context, but ONLY in a sequence of world empire which arrive to the era approximate to 1948, in which Daniel's Prophecies apply.
And accordingly, as to Chapter 9, the two messiahs (small "m") are fulfilled in the 1900's.
Perhaps you would be well served to obey the angel's instructions if you expect to find the TRUTH of the Prophecies! :)
Let me know if you need help!
Bobby Jo
Bobby Jo
Well-Known Member
Bobby Jo
Well-Known Member
I still don't see a "song". Maybe it would help if James Taylor sang it as a "ballad". But on the other hand, I DO see Bible Prophecy for 1945 (Book 19, Chapter 45 = 1945*). :)
*Ref. J.R. Church, "Hidden Prophecies In The Psalms"
Bobby Jo
Bobby Jo
Well-Known Member
I'm telling you, -- I don't need James Taylor, or the "song" from Psalms 45. I already have the Prophetic significance.
So the next question is, -- do you have BOTH like me?
Bobby Jo
Jesus told the people he was talking to that some of them would see those things accomplished. He was not talking to a generation of people in 1948.
Matthew 24:33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.
34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.
We are reading what he told other people. He was talking to them. He meant them. Not us.
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Bobby Jo
Well-Known Member
Scripture speaks to THREE audiences:
- The world
- His followers in their generation
- His followers in the future generation
We are that future generation, which actually starts in the 1900's. Have you read Book 19, Chapter 48 = 1948? (Ref. J.R. Church, "Hidden Prophecies In The Psalms.)
Have you obeyed the angel's instructions in Daniel 12:4 & 9?
Did you think that the Book of Revelation wasn't for the end times?
Do you believe the LIARS (commentators) who can't resolve the prophecies, so they just give you their BEST LIES?
Believe GOD, not men,
Bobby Jo
- And let me guess, you think he was talking to you and your generation when he said that? He was discussing the destruction of the Temple -- and that happened -- to them then. He wasn't really talking to the people present when he said that?
This may be what you believe. I haven't read that book and almost surely won't. It doesn't sound sensible to me.
There is no instruction in those verses for me. Daniel was told to do things. I am not Daniel.
The end of that age, yes. When John wrote that, he said all the things in the book would come to pass shortly. He says so at the beginning of the book.
Revelation 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:
If someone can't believe Revelation 1:1, reading the rest of it is a waste of his time. John says it again in the last chapter:
22:10 And he saith unto me, Seal not the sayings of the prophecy of this book: for the time is at hand.
. . .
20 He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus.
I don't know what you mean by this. I read up on history. I didn't depend on commentators. It seems to me that you're the one giving me inaccurate ideas which conflict with the Bible.
I also don't know what you mean by this. I"m really having trouble understanding you.
Bobby Jo
Well-Known Member
Matthew 24 is MORE than just the destruction of the Temple, -- that's only verse 2. But YOU cited verse 33. It appears that you not only misrepresent the Book of Matthew, but also the Book of Daniel, -- and possibly the entire Bible.
Are you perchance a preterist?
Bobby Jo
Isn't verse 33 part of Jesus' answer to his disciples question? Of course it is.
Your attitude towards me does not inspire me to go on. Indeed, I regret starting the conversation with you. You posed questions; but you weren't interested in answers. If you think you have the answers, why ask questions?
Another question? Hmmm.
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