Why do Catholics…

[Taken]

I always enjoy hearing from you Taken. I know you are not interested in the link. But you asked for answers and I provided you the venue for those answers sooooooooooo I don't know what else to say.

One can occasionally hope an other can actually answer in their own words, and give verification in Scripture for their answer.

God Bless,
Taken

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Nope, they are not: Catholic Answers

The Church has "answers" that are easy to find. How about your church? Can I find the answers to my questions that easily?

Curious Mary

But we are asking you not some bulletin. You said you would answer.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Jesus is high priest so who are the low priests

1 Peter 2:9
But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light;


Every single believer!

 

[Ronald Nolette]

The biggest reasons why different denominations and inner denomination squabbles and schisms doctrinally occur is because "sola scriptura" is a false premise, it's not taught explicitly anywhere in Scripture and Protestantism bases everything on it. Other reasons is no central authority and no unifying Eucharist.

Wrong!

2 Timothy 3:16
All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

The gentile churches prior to the diaspora were not answerable to the Jerusalem council, they were answerable to Paul!

Until constantine planted the seeds for a massive centralized bureaucracy, the church had m any many squabbles and divisions. Even Paul in his ewpistles dealt with many divisions within the churches He planted! So that is an irrelevant argument!

And by Eucharist, if you mean transubstantiation: The first real teaching on teh presence was given by Ignatious of Antioch c. 90AD

Teh early Jewish church did not hold to the presence of Jesus in teh elements. they knew what teh bread and wine from the passover seder were and how Jesus explained what the particular pita and the particular cup of wine were symbols of!

 

[Marymog]

But we are asking you not some bulletin. You said you would answer.

Hmmmm.......I don't recall saying I would answer. If I did please cut and paste it here for me or give me the post#

Here is what I said in post #319: .....you asked for answers and I provided you the venue for those answers sooooooooooo I don't know what else to say.

So it appears YOU asked for answers. I provided a link to those answers. But now you are saying I said I would answer

I could be wrong but I don't think I agreed to provide answers.....

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Thanks Ronald. You love that word presumptious[sic], don't you......:)

According to your self testimony you seem to be well read. There is no more need for you to explain how YOU come up with YOUR truth. But let's be honest here. No where at no point at any time in any manner does Scripture say that each individual Christian when they read Scripture on their own and come up with their own Truth or interpretation that their interpretation is the Truth. Scripture actually says that men that do that are unstable and are twisting Scripture to their own destruction. That is the bottom line to our discussion! I don't care how many manuscripts you read or the literal/historical/grammatical method you use, comparative studies of the sects of Christendom or about your exhaustive studies of many systematic theologies comparing them to Scripture. When you make the statement that "All churches teach false doctrine" and that "some churches teach more false doctrine than others" that shows me that YOU think that YOU know what a true doctrine is compared to a false doctrine. YOU think YOU have discovered the Truth even though you readily admit that you could change your mind on that truth in the future if someone says something to you that YOU decide is the Truth. You are clearly still searching for the Truth and I applaud you for that.

Mary

Tell you what. Until you clearly enunciate the truth you are trying to nudge me to, I will not answer anymore. If you cannot tell me this truth eiother you don't know it or you wish not to reveal it openly. either way, this is th eonly thing I will respond to from you on this thread.

Put up or shut up as they say!

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Hmmmm.......I don't recall saying I would answer. If I did please cut and paste it here for me or give me the post#

Here is what I said in post #319: .....you asked for answers and I provided you the venue for those answers sooooooooooo I don't know what else to say.

So it appears YOU asked for answers. I provided a link to those answers. But now you are saying I said I would answer

I could be wrong but I don't think I agreed to provide answers.....

Well YOU are trying to nudge me to the truth. So you tell me. You know what you are trying to do so be honest or be quiet!

 

[Marymog]

One can occasionally hope an other can actually answer in their own words, and give verification in Scripture for their answer.

God Bless,
Taken

You Protestants can answer in your own words since your answer to the same question can change week to week, year to year, century to century. It is all a matter of if you feel like the Holy Spirit is guiding you into the truth...but then a year later you feel like the Holy Spirit guided you into a different truth.....then you change your mind.

My own words don't matter because I am not the authoritative teacher or interpreter of Scripture. I am not the pillar and foundation of Truth. I can not decide if you are to be treated as a pagan or tax collector when you disagree with me. The Church does and is all that.......Just like Scripture says. I prefer to adhere to Scripture. YOU?

So, unlike you, my answers will not change and they are easy to find: Catholic Answers The Holy See (vatican.va) United States Conference of Catholic Bishops (usccb.org)

Now if I had an internet connection to your brain I could search your brain on what you believe and what doctrines you hold. But since that can't be done you have to answer my questions if you want me to know what you believe in regards to Scripture. If you want to know what I believe you can access any of those 4 websites.

I can only hope that you will actually answer my questions and give verification from Scripture. If you don't answer, I have no where else to go to find out what you believe. If I don't answer our questons.....you have someplace else to go. Catholic Answers The Holy See (vatican.va) United States Conference of Catholic Bishops (usccb.org)

God Bless....Mary

 

[Ronald Nolette]

You Protestants can answer in your own words since your answer to the same question can change week to week, year to year, century to century. It is all a matter of if you feel like the Holy Spirit is guiding you into the truth...but then a year later you feel like the Holy Spirit guided you into a different truth.....then you change your mind.

My own words don't matter because I am not the authoritative teacher or interpreter of Scripture. I am not the pillar and foundation of Truth. I can not decide if you are to be treated as a pagan or tax collector when you disagree with me. The Church does and is all that.......Just like Scripture says. I prefer to adhere to Scripture. YOU?

So, unlike you, my answers will not change and they are easy to find: Catholic Answers The Holy See (vatican.va) United States Conference of Catholic Bishops (usccb.org)

Now if I had an internet connection to your brain I could search your brain on what you believe and what doctrines you hold. But since that can't be done you have to answer my questions if you want me to know what you believe in regards to Scripture. If you want to know what I believe you can access any of those 4 websites.

I can only hope that you will actually answer my questions and give verification from Scripture. If you don't answer, I have no where else to go to find out what you believe. If I don't answer our questons.....you have someplace else to go. Catholic Answers The Holy See (vatican.va) United States Conference of Catholic Bishops (usccb.org)

God Bless....Mary

Nice dodges! Come on a thread, debate and disagree, and then palm off having to defend yourself by pointing to the church!

So do you agree with the current Pope when he called a Muslim Imam a fellow brother in Christ? I haven't heard from the college of cardinals or the synod of Bishops saying he was wrong, so their silence is implicit agreement! What say you???

 

[Marymog]

Well if by the apostolic fathers, you mean the NT, I have studied for 47 years!

If you mean teh early church fathers, I have read teh workls of the ante-nicen fathers! But they were not charged with establishing teh church and its doctrines. The original Apostles were. Every one else after the Apostles have the task of what I dubbed the "3 P's"

Preserve without added commnet
Protect from additions or subtractions
Pass on
The Scriptures as they were written.

Hmmmm.....Ronald, for someone who is self described as being well studied you don't (or are pretending) even know who the Apostolic Fathers are?

I find it fascinating that you say that anyone AFTER the Apostles they are not "charged with establishing teh[sic] church and its doctrines." But then YOU go on to exhaustively study Scripture to determine what false doctrines other churches are teaching?

Sooooooo the men who started those churches they didn't properly study Scripture to come up with those doctrines that YOU call false but YOU conducted a proper study of Scripture to determine that their doctrines are false???????? Even though you are a man that came AFTER the Apostles YOU can figure out what a false doctrine is but Clement, Ignatius, Polycarp or any man that starts a Protestant church CAN'T figure out what a false doctrine is by reading the SAME BIBLE THAT YOU READ??????????

Simply fascinating and pompous....

 

[Marymog]

Nice dodges! Come on a thread, debate and disagree, and then palm off having to defend yourself by pointing to the church!

You have got to be kidding me right now.

Look back at my posts and all the Christian history I spoke of and passages from Scripture I quoted. Your statement is ludicrous. Compare what I have written to what you have written. Who posts more quotes from Scripture to back up what they say?

I don't know how much clearer I can make this Ronald. I do not have to defend MYSELF. What I believe, teach, practice etc. is clearly written out on multiple websites and those websites have the doctrine/dogma that was decided by much greater men than you and men who walked and talked with the Apostles. You put your interpretation of Scripture above men that walked and talked with the Apostles. That is not only disturbing but also pompous.

Any question you can think to ask me about what I believe can be answered on those websites. Where do I go if you refuse to answer a question from me Ronald? And how often should I ask that same question? Today, and then again a year from now to see if you have changed your answer. And then 2 years from that to see if you have changed your answer again??? Your doctrines, beliefs, dogmas are fluid; like being in quicksand. Mine are on the rock of The Church (Matthew 16:18).

Keeping it real....Mary

 

[Taken]

You Protestants can answer in your own words since your answer to the same question can change week to week, year to year, century to century. It is all a matter of if you feel like the Holy Spirit is guiding you into the truth...but then a year later you feel like the Holy Spirit guided you into a different truth.....then you change your mind.

A mans carnal mind IS NATURALLY AGAINST GOD.
* A mans carnal mind is designed to gather knowledge continually that is beneficial for mans daily life, of building, working, providing, skills, etc.
Of course the MIND changes, as it gather more knowledge, weights that knowledge, tests that knowledge, and logically concludes a choice beneficial to his daily secular life.

* A mans Hearts thoughts is designed to establish the mans TRUTH, regardless if the mans MIND contours up scams, tricks, underhanded plots against other men....He Heart, will hold his Truth, while his Mind is plotting deceit.

* IF and WHEN a man CHOOSES to Believe, Commit to the Lord God...
IT is with the Hearts Thoughts such Confession is what the Lord God WILL HEAR....BECAUSE the MIND IS against God and ever changing.

* AND during Gods Works of Converting a man... He Himself CHANGES a man Heart, and fills it with GODS TRUTH.

* It is the man himself, whose job it is to MAKE his own mind, listen to the thoughts of his new heart.

My own words don't matter because I am not the authoritative teacher or interpreter of Scripture.

Your own words SHOULD MATTER. They speak FOR what you Stand for.
No one is asking you to Interpret Scripture.
Simply KNOW what you stand for...and IS what you Stand for, according to the same KNOWLEDGE that Scripture Stands for.

* Scripture IS KNOWLEDGE...The interpretation of the KNOWLEDGE, is Understanding of the MEANING of the KNOWLEDGE, and The Understanding...According to Gods Understanding...IS a Gift from God for individuals who SEEK Gods Understanding of His Knowledge, provided to us, in written text.

* Men can speak to you God Word of Knowledge...great...Our job is go verify what men speak IS IN FACT Gods Word of Knowledge...THUS the point of God Teaching men TO WRITE, To record, To keep, To Preserve, To copy, To Share, To orally repeat over and over, To rewrite if the Writings are confiscated or destroyed.....expressly for men to have, and VERIFY what they hear claiming to be Gods Word of Knowledge.

* Men can speak to you the Understanding of Gods Word, gifted them from God....You can VERIFY, by asking God for His Understanding...and Compare with what an other told you.

( Gods method is not confusing, actually quite simple and leaves the individual with confidence to know WHY they Believe what they do...
Choosing Gods Word of Knowledge IN Scripture and Gods Understanding for the asking. )

I am not the pillar and foundation of Truth. I can not decide if you are to be treated as a pagan or tax collector when you disagree with me.

Not once have said or indicated, I favor pagan works or collect taxes, for you to wonder how to treat me, according to those considerations.
Disagreeing with an other, particularly Catholics, is because, we have our Trust in different things... You repeatedly have “go to” philosophies of men, you Trust. I am not a fan of “philosophers” or “philosophies of men” and find thumbing through their mindful “philosophical thoughts”, deflective AWAY, from the Book I prefer to Hear that is Gods Words, Gods knowledge.

The Church does and is all that.......Just like Scripture says. I prefer to adhere to Scripture. YOU?

That is interesting, since when asked for Scriptural Verifications of what you claim to believe...you deflect.
Verifying is NOT interpreting.

I have no issue with stating my beliefs and Verifying MY WHY, with Scripture.

So, unlike you, my answers will not change and they are easy to find: Catholic Answers The Holy See (vatican.va) United States Conference of Catholic Bishops (usccb.org)

My Scriptural Answers do not change, so that is a false accusation.
Yes I see your list of ‘other men’s writings that you favor and Trust”.
Clearly, of no interest to me. I have the writings God Approved.

Now if I had an internet connection to your brain I could search your brain on what you believe and what doctrines you hold.

You could search my brain all day long, to think you could find what I Spiritually Believe and what Doctrines I hold.
Not a mystery, I have on more than one occasion revealed my Heartful Thoughts of Belief and my Doctrine is Jesus’ Doctrine....

But since that can't be done you have to answer my questions if you want me to know what you believe in regards to Scripture. If you want to know what I believe you can access any of those 4 websites.

If you should desire to ask me questions, please do so in a complete concise method. Yet as I said, what and why I believe what I do, is well documented on this forum.
Not interested in asking Joe Blow, what and why you believe what you do.

I can only hope that you will actually answer my questions and give verification from Scripture.

If you ask a direct question, you can expect an answer. If you ask a non specific vague question, don’t expect an answer.

If you don't answer, I have no where else to go to find out what you believe.

It’s all over this forum.

If I don't answer our questons.....you have someplace else to go. Catholic Answers The Holy See (vatican.va) United States Conference of Catholic Bishops (usccb.org)

I pretty much think it is settled, that you are incapable of answering for yourself.
I find that odd. I would never go ask a Pastor what my neighbor believes. Nor expect my neighbor to say, go ask my Pastor what I believe. Very unconventional.

God Bless,
Taken

 

[Taken]

Hmmmm.....Ronald, for someone who is self described as being well studied you don't (or are pretending) even know who the Apostolic Fathers are?

“ Apostolic Fathers” is a title given to men who may have been known to; or suspected of having known, or having heard teaching/preaching perhaps a following relationship with any of the Twelve Apostles.

Not every one gives such men, (by known or suspected association to the Apostles), carte’ blanch kudos or titles.

“Apostolic Fathers” is not a Scriptural term.
Apostles who had men they were teaching, traveling with them, helping in the Apostles ministry...such men were called disciples of the Apostle.

We already know, Catholics weigh heavily on their traditions of Titles and knowing a guy, who knew a guy, is a badge of merit.

Sort of like, I knew a guy whose sister had a friend whose mother heard the Pope say...blah blah blah. So now the mother must be merited with a title.

 

[Marymog]

“ Apostolic Fathers” is a title given to men who may have been known to; or suspected of having known, or having heard teaching/preaching perhaps a following relationship with any of the Twelve Apostles.

Not every one gives such men, (by known or suspected association to the Apostles), carte’ blanch kudos or titles.

“Apostolic Fathers” is not a Scriptural term.
Apostles who had men they were teaching, traveling with them, helping in the Apostles ministry...such men were called disciples of the Apostle.

We already know, Catholics weigh heavily on their traditions of Titles and knowing a guy, who knew a guy, is a badge of merit.

Sort of like, I knew a guy whose sister had a friend whose mother heard the Pope say...blah blah blah. So now the mother must be merited with a title.

And who do you "weigh heavily on"?

 

[Marymog]

I pretty much think it is settled, that you are incapable of answering for yourself.
I find that odd. I would never go ask a Pastor what my neighbor believes. Nor expect my neighbor to say, go ask my Pastor what I believe. Very unconventional.

God Bless,
Taken

Yes, it is settled. The Church is the pillar and foundation of truth and answers for me who is to be ex-communicated. Not your fantasy that it is you.

Very unconventional to fulfill what is written in Matthew 18:17? Well then, call me unconventional for following what Scripture teaches. I will wear that with a badge of honor.

Keeping it real with Scripture....Mary

 

[Marymog]

My Scriptural Answers do not change, so that is a false accusation.


God Bless,
Taken

Rigggghhht...you come to the Truth on your very first reading of Scripture. Congratulations, you are being guided by the Spirit at all times.

 

[Marymog]

Yes I see your list of ‘other men’s writings that you favor and Trust”.
Clearly, of no interest to me. I have the writings God Approved.


God Bless,
Taken

Lol....I should trust what YOU wrote over what men who were students of the Apostles wrote.....Clearly of not interest to me.

YOU have the writings of God Approved but the men who walked and talked with the Apostles are NOT approved? Fascinating theory Taken....Simply fascinating.........

 

[Illuminator]

“ Apostolic Fathers” is a title given to men blah, blah, blah...
Sort of like, I knew a guy whose sister had a friend whose mother heard the Pope say...blah blah blah. So now the mother must be merited with a title.

Your view of apostolicity is totally warped. It's a straw man fallacy with no basis in reality.

The first Christians had no doubts about how to determine which was the true Church and which doctrines the true teachings of Christ. The test was simple: Just trace the apostolic succession of the claimants.

Apostolic succession is the line of bishops stretching back to the apostles. All over the world, all Catholic bishops are part of a lineage that goes back to the time of the apostles, something that is impossible in Protestant denominations (most of which do not even claim to have bishops).

The role of apostolic succession in preserving true doctrine is illustrated in the Bible. To make sure that the apostles’ teachings would be passed down after the deaths of the apostles, Paul told Timothy, “[W]hat you have heard from me before many witnesses entrust to faithful men who will be able to teach others also” (2 Tim. 2:2). In this passage he refers to the first three generations of apostolic succession—his own generation, Timothy’s generation, and the generation Timothy will teach.
read more here

and here: APOSTOLIC AUTHORITY AND SUCCESSION - Scripture Catholic

 

[Illuminator]

[QUOTE="Taken, post: 1291726, member: 7756"
“Apostolic Fathers” is not a Scriptural term.
[/QUOTE] The concept is all over the place in Scripture, as I just illustrated, you just refuse to see it. What's is not scriptural is your abolishment of the office of bishop, the abolishment of the NT priesthood etc., etc. "Sola scriptura" and "sola fide" are not scriptural terms either, yet you base your whole system on these man made traditions.

If anything must be described, then, as a corruption of primitive, pure Christianity, it is Protestantism, not Catholicism, since it introduced a radically new mode of Christian authority which was a 180-degree departure from the established Christian Tradition: that of subjective, private judgment, tied in with the unbiblical, unhistorical, and unreasonable notion of "Scripture Alone." Protestantism is much more of a corruption, if that word is defined as an essential change of direction or philosophy of an institution or a set of beliefs (in this case theological and spiritual).​

One might say that an automobile was "corrupt" if the owner decided that it ran better with no muffler, no shocks, no air or fuel filters, half of its spark plugs, watered-down gas, no rear brakes, one headlight, no heat, three quarts low on oil, with half of its radiator coolant, etc. Corruption can consist of "subtraction" as well as "addition." Protestantism's charges against Catholicism, closely scrutinized, only come back to incriminate itself.​

By and large, Protestantism merely asserts "sola Scriptura" without much consideration of the seriously-flawed implications of the same, and judges all doctrines accordingly. Therefore, those which are deemed to be either outright unbiblical or insufficiently grounded in Scripture to be authoritative, are jettisoned: the Marian doctrines, Purgatory, Penance, the papacy, etc. Apart from the question of Tradition as a legitimate carrier (alongside and in harmony with Scripture) of Christian belief, much more biblical support can be found in Scripture for these "Catholic" doctrines than Protestants suppose.​

One simply needs to become familiar with Catholic biblical apologetic arguments. The idea of doctrinal development is a key, in any case, for understanding why the Catholic Church often appears on the surface as fundamentally different than the early Church. Thoughtful Protestants owe it to themselves and intellectual honesty to ponder this indispensable notion before lashing out at the allegedly "unbiblical excesses" of Catholicism.​

Read more: https://www.catholicfidelity.com/apologetics-topics/authority/development-of-doctrine-by-dave-armstrong/

 

[Taken]

And who do you "weigh heavily on"?

The Lord God Almighty....None Stronger than He.