Why do Catholics…

[Ronald Nolette]

Presumption is a sin? Hmmm....I guess I need to find that one in Scripture.

You say you have many biases but your bias that I have read only show toward the CC...IMO. That is why I said what I said....mary

Well as this is a thread on Catholicism, I focus on that. Start a thread on say Lutheranism and you will see my biases there!

Find the definition of presumptiousness and you will find it in SCripture.

 

[Marymog]

Christians are one! we may disagree because of imperfection but we are one!

Your contradicting statement(s) proves Christianity is not one: If we DISAGREE, we are not one! We do not have ONE voice that promotes ONE doctrine under the authority of ONE church and as you previously stated every church teaches some false doctrine.......we are far from ONE!

Elders (bishops of The Church) are to be appointed in every town and they must have a firm grasp of the word that is trustworthy in accordance with the teaching, so that he may be able both to preach with sound doctrine and to refute those who contradict it. That is not happening today in Christianity in the year 2022!

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Well, Scripture says that the church is the pillar and foundation of truth and that we are to go to the Church to settle our differences and the Church decides who is to be treated as a pagan or tax collector (ex-communicated). So that is how we can know that The Church is correct.....

Yes the church is the pillar and foundation (actually Jesus is the foundation and the church is built on that foundation as Paul said in Corinthians). so when the church acts in accord with what God inspired to be "the Constitutio0n of the church " (the NT) it will always be infallible.

The church is made ofpeople. People ar eimperfecty. so when the leaders veer from Scripture- they are incorrect.

Even Peter, whom romanism falsely calls the first pope, was rebuked by Paul because He was not correct!

 

[Ronald Nolette]

According to WHO? You?

Well I am not one who considers my self a pope. But I do not accept arguments my level of training tells me is wrong! If they show me better from Scripture, I will change!

 

[Marymog]

Find the definition of presumptiousness and you will find it in SCripture.

You didn't say "presumptuousness" was a sin. In post #242 you said "presumption" is a sin. They have different meanings and nowhere in the bible does it say presumption is a sin.

 

[Marymog]

Well I am not one who considers my self a pope. But I do not accept arguments my level of training tells me is wrong! If they show me better from Scripture, I will change!

And there you go again with your anti-Catholic poke. The Pope is the leader of The Catholic Church. He does not make doctrine for The Church. The magisterium does. Protestant men who start their own church make doctrine for their church that they started because they felt like the Holy Spirit was guiding them into starting a church and the Holy Spirit guided them to the truth.

So, if you were to be fair you would have said that you do not consider yourself one of those Protestant men that starts their own church and creates doctrine for that church on what they personally believe the bible says.

But your anti-Catholic bias won't allow you to be fair.

 

[Marymog]

If they show me better from Scripture, I will change!

Lol...what YOU decide is "better from Scripture". Can you not see the fallacy of your theory? Do you consider yourself the fulfillment of 1 Timothy 3:15?

 

[Marymog]

The church is made of people. People ar eimperfecty. so when the leaders veer from Scripture- they are incorrect.

Veer from Scripture according to WHO? YOU????? A vote of the people in the Church? Majority rules?

Can you not see how your theory is not workable?

 

[Marymog]

Another reason. We are now almost 1900 years from the last writing of the NT. !

Yup, that is why we Christians (you in your "exhaustive studies") should rely on the writings of the Apostolic Fathers MORE than we rely on the writings of Ronald Nolette.

Have you exhaustively studied the Apostolic Fathers?

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Your contradicting statement(s) proves Christianity is not one: If we DISAGREE, we are not one! We do not have ONE voice that promotes ONE doctrine under the authority of ONE church and as you previously stated every church teaches some false doctrine.......we are far from ONE!

Elders (bishops of The Church) are to be appointed in every town and they must have a firm grasp of the word that is trustworthy in accordance with the teaching, so that he may be able both to preach with sound doctrine and to refute those who contradict it. That is not happening today in Christianity in the year 2022!

Well these times were prophesied as the age of Laodicea and the age when apostasdy8 will grow.

But you are ocnfusing oneness with unity or conformity of thought! My wife and I are one, though we do not always agree.

 

[Marymog]

Well here is the post. I did answer but clearly not enough to satisfy you. so I will answer again.

1. All churches teach false doctrine to a measure. No church is perfect.
2. some churches teach more false doctrine than others.

What is my criteria?

1. 48 years of studying the scriptures.
2. Comparative studies of many sects of Christendom.
3. Exhaustuve studies of many systematic theologies comparing them to Scripture.
4. Some false doctrine is minor and not worht getting into a battle over.
5. some false doctrine has to be resisted intensely for they attack the core of salvation. these would be called the fundamentals of the faith.

But bottom line? I read the doctrine in question,
2. Their biblical reasoning's
3. If they use a more literal or more allegorical method of interpreting the scriptures they quote.
4. then compare it with the clear teachings off the NT. If it is in accord for the most part ( the corpus is accurate but appendages may differ) I have no problem
5. If their main conclusion disagrees with the clear teaching of teh NT- I disagree. The. level of error on the fundamentals is the level I will resist that teaching.

Now if you open a thread say about Lutherans, I will focus on Lutherans and disagree with the doctrines that I am convinced after 47 years of SCripture study ( and bible college and bible college teacher) .

Maybe I should use the word convinced instead of saying this is the doctrine for your benefit. I have changed my belief on issues untoil number of times over 47 years as I have learned more of the Scriptures and heard disagreeing arguments that appeared to apply the Scriptures better.

Are these all have a measure of subjectivity to them? Of course they do! NO individual or church is 100% objective in the declarations of all their beliefs. To think that is sheer foolishness.

Now you have a summary of how I come to the conclusions of Scripture that I do!

Here is a summary of how I come to the conclusions of Scripture:
I trust the pillar and foundation of Truth to come to the right conclusion. I don't trust myself because I don't think I am the pillar and foundation of Truth.

I believe anything started by Christ is perfect and The Church was started by Christ.

I trust hundreds of bishops of The Church who have studied Scripture more than one mans "48 years of studying the scriptures".

I trust the writings of the Apostolic Fathers over the writings of the men of the Revolution that started in the 16th century and deeply divided Christianity that went from One teaching with One Church. They started teaching the false doctrine that any man can read Scripture and that man will be guided to the Truth.

Mary

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Yup, that is why we Christians (you in your "exhaustive studies") should rely on the writings of the Apostolic Fathers MORE than we rely on the writings of Ronald Nolette.

Have you exhaustively studied the Apostolic Fathers?

Well if by the apostolic fathers, you mean the NT, I have studied for 47 years!

If you mean teh early church fathers, I have read teh workls of the ante-nicen fathers! But they were not charged with establishing teh church and its doctrines. The original Apostles were. Every one else after the Apostles have the task of what I dubbed the "3 P's"

Preserve without added commnet
Protect from additions or subtractions
Pass on
The Scriptures as they were written.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Lol...what YOU decide is "better from Scripture". Can you not see the fallacy of your theory? Do you consider yourself the fulfillment of 1 Timothy 3:15?

so do you think indulgences is the pillar and ground of the truth?
Do you think making the sign of the cross with holy water absolves you of time in purgatory, the pillar and ground of truth?
Do you believe Popeo Francis calling a muslim IMAM a brother in Christ the pillar and ground of truth?

According to your Catholic upbringing (and mine) it must be! But Jesus and His Word- entrusted in the church is the ground of truth.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

And there you go again with your anti-Catholic poke. The Pope is the leader of The Catholic Church. He does not make doctrine for The Church. The magisterium does. Protestant men who start their own church make doctrine for their church that they started because they felt like the Holy Spirit was guiding them into starting a church and the Holy Spirit guided them to the truth.

Well maybe you need to reread the Bull Unum Sanctum or the policy of ex-Cathedra declarations from the pope! And Papal Encyclicals tend to become doctrine. so though the magisterium voted- it is the Pope who gives teh impetus.

Yes too many protestant churches were started by men who trusted their feelings instead of the Word! I cannot argue that!

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Here is a summary of how I come to the conclusions of Scripture:
I trust the pillar and foundation of Truth to come to the right conclusion. I don't trust myself because I don't think I am the pillar and foundation of Truth.

I believe anything started by Christ is perfect and The Church was started by Christ.

I trust hundreds of bishops of The Church who have studied Scripture more than one mans "48 years of studying the scriptures".

I trust the writings of the Apostolic Fathers over the writings of the men of the Revolution that started in the 16th century and deeply divided Christianity that went from One teaching with One Church. They started teaching the false doctrine that any man can read Scripture and that man will be guided to the Truth.

Mary

Well Romanism wasn't started by Jesus but by Constantine. The church is an organism and not an organization!

Anything started by Jesus and faithfully carried on is awesome! Anyone who is perfect, is by Jesus grace and not our own.

Well theey study with the
Romanist bias so when they read Scripture- they read it with special "glasses".

I trust the writings as long as I am convinced that they are faithful to Scriptures. No man is perfect and anyone can become a heretic.

Origen an ancient church father became a notorious heretic
Arius was an insidious heretic and he was an ancient church father. Teh Watchtower bases their theology on his heretics.

If you wish you should study the 30 volume work of the ante Nicene fathers and see the level of disagreement they had amongst themselves.

I do claim infallibility and I mock any Corpus of men who think they do!

 

[Marymog]

Well these times were prophesied as the age of Laodicea and the age when apostasdy8 will grow.

But you are ocnfusing oneness with unity or conformity of thought! My wife and I are one, though we do not always agree.

Oh goodness Ronald. Scripture makes it clear that there are men who teach FALSE DOCTRINES. If you accept a FALSE DOCTRINE, which is a teaching OPPOSITE of what Jesus taught, and follow those men that tickle your ears Scripture makes it clear what will happen to you. If you accept a FALSE DOCTRINE from a FALSE TEACHER then you are no longer ONE with the men who are teaching a SOUND DOCTRINE and you are no longer ONE with The Church. That IS NOT comparable with your wife and you not always agreeing.....:

For the time is coming when people will not put up with sound doctrine, but having itching ears, they will accumulate for themselves teachers to suit their own desires, 4 and will turn away from listening to the truth and wander away to myths.

If you were standing in front of one of the Apostles and they told you "Ronald, XYZ is a sound doctrine. Do NOT deviate from it and do not teach anything opposite of it" and you then went out and deviated/taught opposite of what they told you, do you think they would allow you to continue to teach? Are you still ONE with their teaching? Or do you think they would treat you as a pagan or tax collector?

With that said you have said that you have changed my belief on issues over 47 years as after you have learned more of the Scriptures and heard disagreeing arguments that appeared to apply the Scriptures better. I sincerely hope that I have nudged you in the right direction and this may be one of those times.

Mary

 

[Ronald Nolette]

You didn't say "presumptuousness" was a sin. In post #242 you said "presumption" is a sin. They have different meanings and nowhere in the bible does it say presumption is a sin.

Well then my bad. but presumptiousness is the act (verb) of presumption (noun)

 

[Taken]

Why do Catholics have holy water?

ashes and lent?

priests?
Special garb for priests?

saints with halo’s?

kneelers and pews?

bishops and cathedrals?

Etc.

Hebrews and Tribesmen (ISRAEL) had traditions, and seems the Catholics adopted some and decided to create some of their own.
Traditions, Rituals, Elaborate Artworks, Trinkets, etc. edging on the Arrogance akin to ancient Pharisees.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Oh goodness Ronald. Scripture makes it clear that there are men who teach FALSE DOCTRINES. If you accept a FALSE DOCTRINE, which is a teaching OPPOSITE of what Jesus taught, and follow those men that tickle your ears Scripture makes it clear what will happen to you. If you accept a FALSE DOCTRINE from a FALSE TEACHER then you are no longer ONE with the men who are teaching a SOUND DOCTRINE and you are no longer ONE with The Church. That IS NOT comparable with your wife and you not always agreeing.....:

For the time is coming when people will not put up with sound doctrine, but having itching ears, they will accumulate for themselves teachers to suit their own desires, 4 and will turn away from listening to the truth and wander away to myths.

If you were standing in front of one of the Apostles and they told you "Ronald, XYZ is a sound doctrine. Do NOT deviate from it and do not teach anything opposite of it" and you then went out and deviated/taught opposite of what they told you, do you think they would allow you to continue to teach? Are you still ONE with their teaching? Or do you think they would treat you as a pagan or tax collector?

With that said you have said that you have changed my belief on issues over 47 years as after you have learned more of the Scriptures and heard disagreeing arguments that appeared to apply the Scriptures better. I sincerely hope that I have nudged you in the right direction and this may be one of those times.

Mary

Well in the generic all you said is true! But do you really want to argue specifics of false doctrines that are contrary to the teachings of the Apostles and preserved in the inspired Word of God?

NO they probably wouldn't. Depending on how serious the teaching veered from the Apostolic truth as preserved in the NT. But the Apostles had big wars over teh gentiles in the first century and keeping of the law.

And what specifically are you trying to nudge me to? A specific answer would help! I do not like being presumptious.

 

[Marymog]

Well in the generic all you said is true! But do you really want to argue specifics of false doctrines that are contrary to the teachings of the Apostles and preserved in the inspired Word of God?

A false doctrine is OPPOSITE of what Jesus and the Apostles taught and is taught by a FALSE TEACHER so YES, I would, will and do want to "argue specifics" of a doctrine if those "specifics" make it false. I will always stand up against what is false.