Why are Bible scholars leaving Christianity?

[GeneZ]

I'm not sure that the draw of God can be resisted.
But then, I don't believe in a free-will decision.

1. [IMG alt="St. SteVen"]https://www.christianityboard.com/data/avatars/s/22/22827.jpg?1675853916[/IMG]
   

   "By One Man..." - Excerpt from J. Preston Eby​

   How we thank God that He sent one Man into this world who did know the way hack to the Father! This Man knew how to order His own steps, and also how to order our steps, when we could not direct them ourselves. We can see it so plainly in a little child. Even after the child learns...
   
   
2. [IMG alt="St. SteVen"]https://www.christianityboard.com/data/avatars/s/22/22827.jpg?1675853916[/IMG]
   

   The Will of Man - Excerpt from J. Preston Eby​

   The Will of Man - Excerpt from J. Preston Eby At this point I wish to share some searching and enlightening words penned by a servant of the Lord more than sixty-five years ago. "Concerning the nature and the power of man's will, the greatest confusion prevails...
3. [IMG alt="St. SteVen"]https://www.christianityboard.com/data/avatars/s/22/22827.jpg?1675853916[/IMG]
   

   Man is NOT a free moral agent - Excerpt from J. Preston Eby​

   Excerpted from: Is Man A Free Moral Agent? by J. Preston Eby Observe! Saving faith is the GIFT OF GOD, NOT AN EXERCISE OF MAN'S "FREE WILL"! Man must believe, certainly, but it is not the old deceitful and desperately wicked heart, nor the old carnal mind which believes, but the faith...

Stay away from Calvinism for that one, please.

Romans 1:18-23. It says that God had been drawing them and got them to know He is real.
If his drawing could not be resisted? They all would have not resisted and created lies to suppress the truth they had been made to know.

Verse 27 says they were accountable for their rejection.

In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed shameful acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their error.

Calvinism was an attempt to resolve the depravity of man with salvation. There should be no penalty for rebelling against God's will if they could not help themselves, and left them doing what God condemned them for. Especially, when all sorts of sinners with the same sins come to believe in Jesus.

Well if God can get one of the worst sinners to believe? By making them believe?
And, its God's desire that all men believe? Then that makes God guilty for not forcing all to be saved.....

Calvinism has its limits. And those who blindly adhere to TULIP have no idea how they present God as an irrational monster to people having common sense and knowing Scripture. Its painful for me to witness to seeing someone not able to think rationally. Its like witnessing to Catholics who adhere to their dogma. Dogma that insults the integrity of God and truth.

 

[Jack]

Bible scholars? Who said they are ?

 

[GeneZ]

Bible scholars? Who said they are ?

There is a market for it. $$$

They are scholars from the wrong side of the "tracts."

 

[St. SteVen]

They were definitely being drawn by God!

They refused! Then after refusing God's drawing?

God condemned them. Condemned and had them drawn and quartered!

Those are the worst, what about everyone else?
Pretty sure you have seen this scripture below.
Perhaps this marks the other end of the spectrum?
Have these individuals rejected God?

Romans 2:14-16 NET
For whenever the Gentiles,[a] who do not have the law,
do by nature[b] the things required by the law,[c]
these who do not have the law are a law to themselves.
15 They[d] show that the work of the law is written[e] in their hearts,
as their conscience bears witness and their
conflicting thoughts accuse or else defend[f] them,[g]
16 on the day when God will judge[h] the secrets of human hearts,[i]
according to my gospel[j] through Christ Jesus.

 

[keithr]

Is a fish an animal?

I'm surprised you needed to ask that question! Let me see. It's alive, it's not a plant, it's not a bacteria, it breathes oxygen, consumes organic material and reproduces sexually, so yes it's an animal. Wikipedia confirms that fish are animals.

Does a fish have a soul?

No, but a sole is a fish. ;) The Bible says that a fish is a soul - a "living soul". Genesis 1:20 (Darby):

(20) And God said, Let the waters swarm with swarms of living souls, and let fowl fly above the earth in the expanse of the heavens.​

 

[St. SteVen]

Stay away from Calvinism for that one, please.

Where did that come from? Do you think Preston Eby is a Calvinist?

 

[St. SteVen]

No, but a sole is a fish. ;) The Bible says that a fish is a soul - a "living soul". Genesis 1:20 (Darby):

(20) And God said, Let the waters swarm with swarms of living souls, and let fowl fly above the earth in the expanse of the heavens.

Good one. - LOL
So there we have living souls (sole) without the breath of life. Right?

 

[keithr]

Animal souls are disposable. That is why God has certain animals for our food.

Before the Great Flood humans were vegetarians. Genesis 1:29 (WEB):

(29) God said, “Behold, I have given you every herb yielding seed, which is on the surface of all the earth, and every tree, which bears fruit yielding seed. It will be your food.​

After the flood, Genesis 9:3 (WEB):

(3) Every moving thing that lives will be food for you. As I gave you the green herb, I have given everything to you.​

When the Earth is perfected during/at the end of the Millenial Age, I suspect that humans will once again be eating food from plants only again. When God gave the animals for food, He also said, Genesis 9:2 (WEB):

(2) The fear of you and the dread of you will be on every animal of the earth, and on every bird of the sky. Everything that moves along the ground, and all the fish of the sea, are delivered into your hand.​

but during the Millennial Age, Isaiah 11:6-9 (WEB):

(6) The wolf will live with the lamb, and the leopard will lie down with the young goat; The calf, the young lion, and the fattened calf together; and a little child will lead them.​

(7) The cow and the bear will graze. Their young ones will lie down together. The lion will eat straw like the ox.​

(8) The nursing child will play near a cobra’s hole, and the weaned child will put his hand on the viper’s den.​

(9) They will not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain; for the earth will be full of the knowledge of Yahweh, as the waters cover the sea.​

When God says, Revelation 21:4 (WEB):

(4) He will wipe away every tear from their eyes. Death will be no more; neither will there be mourning, nor crying, nor pain, any more. The first things have passed away.”​

I think that the end of death applies to the animals as well.

 

[keithr]

So there we have living souls (sole) without the breath of life. Right?

No, fish need to breath oxygen too - without it they suffocate and die.

Genesis 6:17 (WEB):

(17) I, even I, will bring the flood of waters on this earth, to destroy all flesh having the breath of life from under the sky. Everything that is in the earth will die.​

Genesis 7 (WEB):

(4) In seven days, I will cause it to rain on the earth for forty days and forty nights. I will destroy every living thing that I have made from the surface of the ground.”​

(21) All flesh died that moved on the earth, including birds, livestock, animals, every creeping thing that creeps on the earth, and every man.​

(22) All on the dry land, in whose nostrils was the breath of the spirit of life, died.​

(23) Every living thing was destroyed that was on the surface of the ground, including man, livestock, creeping things, and birds of the sky. They were destroyed from the earth. Only Noah was left, and those who were with him in the ship.​

As I quoted previously, Ecclesiastes 3:19 (WEB):

(19) For that which happens to the sons of men happens to animals. Even one thing happens to them. As the one dies, so the other dies. Yes, they have all one breath; and man has no advantage over the animals: for all is vanity.​

We seem to be digressing from the subject of this thread, so we should problably not continue this discussion here.

 

[St. SteVen]

Genesis 6:17 (WEB):
(17) I, even I, will bring the flood of waters on this earth, to destroy all flesh having the breath of life from under the sky. Everything that is in the earth will die.

Did the fish drown as well? - LOL

 

[St. SteVen]

Genesis 7 (WEB):
(4) In seven days, I will cause it to rain on the earth for forty days and forty nights. I will destroy every living thing that I have made from the surface of the ground.”(21) All flesh died that moved on the earth, including birds, livestock, animals, every creeping thing that creeps on the earth, and every man.(22) All on the dry land, in whose nostrils was the breath of the spirit of life, died.(23) Every living thing was destroyed that was on the surface of the ground, including man, livestock, creeping things, and birds of the sky. They were destroyed from the earth. Only Noah was left, and those who were with him in the ship.

I don't see fish listed. Birds are listed. Hard to imagine ducks or geese drowning.

We seem to be digressing from the subject of this thread, so we should problably not continue this discussion here.

Agreed. But you can have the last word, my brother.

 

[GeneZ]

Those are the worst, what about everyone else?
Pretty sure you have seen this scripture below.
Perhaps this marks the other end of the spectrum?
Have these individuals rejected God?

Romans 2:14-16 NET
For whenever the Gentiles,[a] who do not have the law,
do by nature[b] the things required by the law,[c]
these who do not have the law are a law to themselves.
15 They[d] show that the work of the law is written[e] in their hearts,
as their conscience bears witness and their
conflicting thoughts accuse or else defend[f] them,[g]
16 on the day when God will judge[h] the secrets of human hearts,[i]
according to my gospel[j] through Christ Jesus.

I was talking about those whom God clearly was drawing, and had rejected the drawing.
You went to Gentiles who accepted God's drawing, showing its a choice granted by grace,

The point I was wishing to make?
God's drawing is not irresistible.

Problem is...
Some claim that God generates irresistible grace to "force" people to believe.
That is why I mentioned Romans 1:18ff as proof they are very wrong.


grace and peace ................

 

[St. SteVen]

The point I was wishing to make?
God's drawing is not irresistible.

Problem is...
Some claim that God generates irresistible grace to "force" people to believe.
That is why I mentioned Romans 1:18ff as proof they are very wrong.

I'm familiar with that argument.

I believe that --- ultimately --- God's drawing is completely irresistible.
And not in the sense of being "forced" to believe.

More like a loving father reaching down to pick up a child with its arms already reaching to be picked up.

Anyone who claims to hate God, hasn't met Him yet.

 

[Ghada]

As Jesus is God the Son and as a Christian believes/trusts in what Jesus has done, then yes belief in God is essential to be a Christian.

In being His Christians Yes, not necessarily to be a part of Christian religion on earth.

When Jews rejected Jesus as the Christ, they were left with their Jews religion (Gal 1:13-14). When Christians reject obeying Jesus as Christ, they are left with their Christians religion.

 

[GeneZ]

I'm familiar with that argument.

I believe that --- ultimately --- God's drawing is completely irresistible.
And not in the sense of being "forced" to believe.

More like a loving father reaching down to pick up a child with its arms already reaching to be picked up.

Anyone who claims to hate God, hasn't met Him yet.

Even if that were the case?

Its irresistible, because of the volition of the one who find's God's nature that way.
Just like Satan and his angels found God resistible from free will.

To think God is irresistible by default? Makes the believer persist when he should know when to back off.
That means we need to stop being naïve in regards to evil being able to resist God.

That is why the Lord gave us the following command. One that many Christians still refuse to acknowledge....

"Warn a divisive person once, and then warn them a second time. After that, have nothing to do with them." Titus 3:10​

​

grace and peace ..............

 

[St. SteVen]

Its irresistible, because of the volition of the one who find's God's nature that way.
Just like Satan and his angels found God resistible from free will.

To think God is irresistible by default? Makes the believer persist when he should know when to back off.
That means we need to stop being naïve in regards to evil being able to resist God.

I think that what we call "free-will" is like a dog's leash.
We can go anywhere we want within limits.
Even Satan and his minions have only so much room to roam.

 

[GeneZ]

Did the fish drown as well? - LOL

And behold, I, even I, do bring a flood of waters upon the earth
to destroy all flesh wherein is the breath of life from under heaven;
and every thing that is on the earth shall die." Gen 6:17

 

[St. SteVen]

St. SteVen said:
Did the fish drown as well? - LOL

And behold, I, even I, do bring a flood of waters upon the earth
to destroy all flesh wherein is the breath of life from under heaven;
and every thing that is on the earth shall die." Gen 6:17

Right, since it was a flood, the fish probably survived.
For a death sentence, "Death by drowning." is probably the best a fish could hope for. - LOL

I wonder about salt water and fresh water fish though.
Would too salty kill the fresh water fish?
And would too fresh kill the salt water fish?
Seems that the things that live in the deep, deep, deep ocean might have not been effected at all.

I was looking at a map of the ocean floors and made a discovery.
The islands are mountaintops in the ocean. They rise from the ocean floor miles below.
Every continent/island sits on a shallow "plate". Like a protective shield.

 

[St. SteVen]

I was looking at a map of the ocean floors and made a discovery.
The islands are mountaintops in the ocean. They rise from the ocean floor miles below.
Every continent/island sits on a shallow "plate". Like a protective shield.

@GeneZ
Here's a better map.

 

[GeneZ]

In being His Christians Yes, not necessarily to be a part of Christian religion on earth.

When Jews rejected Jesus as the Christ, they were left with their Jews religion (Gal 1:13-14). When Christians reject obeying Jesus as Christ, they are left with their Christians religion.

When I believed in Jesus (it was while reading a tract that was handed to me)..
I was a Jewish college student walking to my next class with that tract in hand.

I thought I was still Jewish for about ten years after that day.

All the while, I could not figure out why I had become so drastically changed within me. Even painfully so.

Regeneration never lets you to continue as you had been.