Who or What is Babylon the Great? How do God’s people come to be in her?

[Aunty Jane]

And indeed, why? and why me? Who am I? Pure randomness as science wants us to believe, or predestination?

God gave all his children free will….without which no choices could have been made, and it would have been pointless to offer them, and their consequences. Think about that. God did not plan for the devil to rebel. If Adam and his wife had simply obeyed their Creator, we would not be having this conversation.

If God predestined our lives from before we were conceived, then we can blame him directly for all the human suffering in this world…what kind of fiend plans something like that? Think of all the despots down through history and the millions of lives lost in the cruelest fashion and ask why a loving God would plan that?

And about the blue, how can you be sure? I am referring to John the Baptist who did not even know he was Elijah when he descended from heaven back in the womb again. And like everybody else he had to face death death after all.

John the Baptist was not Elijah, but fulfilled the role of Elijah. He was the messenger sent ahead prepare the people for the arrival of their Messiah…..If you remember at the transfiguration, the apostles saw Elijah and Moses speaking with Jesus in his glorified form. If John also said that no one went to heaven before Jesus, (John 3:13) then where were Moses and Elijah when Jesus walked the earth? Where did they come from?

Jesus explained that it was a “vision”…(Matt 17:9) so the apostles collectively saw what Jesus had promised…..that some would see him in his glorified form before the kingdom came….(Matt 16:28)
Moses and Elijah were represented in the vision as the law and the prophets, which led to Christ.

Note, I am not saying the Bible teaches reincarnation, this was an unique case for a very special occasion. Like it was with Mary, to reassure her (and us) the angel said - With God everything is possible.

But you are suggesting reincarnation if you believe that John B was actually a reincarnated Elijah. His miraculous birth was not a duplicate of Jesus’ birth, because he had two human parents, just like Isaac did, and both mothers were past child bearing age. An angel told all of them what would take place.

What was predetermined, was God’s rescue mission for the human race…which included all of them.
Only specific individuals were predestined to play a role in the outworking of Jehovah’s purpose, not all of us.

Exactly, why are we here?

Speaking for myself, adding another question, at some age I was told there was a God and you better listen else you would end up in outer darkness, hell, lake of fire. And so I realized I am already judged guilty and if I don't do anything I am on my way to outer darkness, hell, lake of fire, whatever second death means, there are different opinions and none are fun.

I was told the same thing…and it never sat well with me. How could a loving God even think to do such a thing? It is contrary to his personality and also transgresses his justice.

So when I actually started to study the Bible instead of theology, I got to find out all the things the Bible teaches compared with the ridiculous stuff taught by the churches.

I found out what “the second death” means, and why it’s called that.
I found out what “hell“ is….and it’s not a bit scary.
I found out what “the lake of fire” is and it’s no more scary than “hell” is.
We can talk more about this….

what is the big picture, that's the question that has kept me bothering for years. I have a theory that answers all my questions, but I keep it to myself, as I can't proof it from Scripture but on the other hand would not surprise me in the case it is true.

I don’t have theories….all that I believe must be solidly based on the Bible.…and it all must fit into the big picture….one that begins in Genesis and ends in Revelation. (Isa 55:11) If you know what Genesis teaches about God’s first purpose for us humans here on planet Earth, then it all makes sense.

Would you like to explore that?

Yes, the restoration how it was before the fall, only difference we will know about good and evil in the hope we learned the lesson on earth well and be obedient in the hypothetical case God says : DONT.

Again, if we understand what Genesis teaches about life before the fall, then we can understand what life will be like when all is restored to God’s original purpose……which never went away (Rev 21:2-4)…..there was just a necessary detour in order to address the issues that the devil raised in Eden, slandering his Creator and leading the humans astray in order to obtain their worship. Lessons needed to be taught about obedience…because when God says, “DON’T” there are always consequences….ones we can avoid if we allow him to tell us what is good and evil, and obey him in all things. It is obvious that humans cannot really tell the difference….many believe that evil is good and good is evil (Isa 5:20)….that’s how the devil conducts his business.

 

[Ritajanice]

God gave all his children free will….without which no choices could have been made, and it would have been pointless to offer them, and their consequences. Think about that. God did not plan for the devil to rebel. If Adam and his wife had simply obeyed their Creator, we would not be having this conversation

The thing is though Aunty, when God told Adam and Eve not to eat from the tree, he knew that they would anyway, so why tell them not to eat from it in the first place?

Plus God knew that his Angel would want to be God.

You see, God knows everything and he has a plan, for everything, the earth etc, there is no way that you, me could possibly know God’s plan...we can tell our own story on what we believe the Bible to be saying....

But we can’t prove anything.....it’s just what one comes to believe and how they came to that belief.

Beliefs are all over the forum......all differ....

 

[Aunty Jane]

The thing is though Aunty, when God told Adam and Eve not to eat from the tree, he knew that they would anyway, so why tell them not to eat from it in the first place?

I see that a little differently to you Ritajanice. God’s omniscience is his ability to know all things, but he can limit what he chooses to know to accommodate the free will of his intelligent creation. All of the things that God has chosen to do revolves around the choices they have made without his interference…..by the use of their free will. Without free will, no choices can be made. Humans were given choices.

By allowing them to do that, he can create lessons for us regarding the consequences of our actions. The Bible is as much about bad examples as good ones. We learn much from both.

Plus God knew that his Angel would want to be God.

I disagree again. The spirit son who became satan the devil was posted as a guardian Cherub in the garden of Eden, (Ezek 28:13-15; 17) apparently a beautiful creature, carried away by his own magnificence.…..and he was privy to all that was transpiring there in the garden. It doesn’t say how long he was posted there before he started on a wrong track of thinking. (James 1:14-15) At some stage he began to envy the worship that the humans gave to their Creator.

His fellow angels were his equals in power so at best, he could be their leader, but to these lower intelligent creatures, he could be a god.….if only he could separate them from the true God by disobedience to that one command…..What Satan said to Eve, is what he was thinking about himself…”you will be like God”…

You see, God knows everything and he has a plan, for everything, the earth etc, there is no way that you, me could possibly know God’s plan...we can tell our own story on what we believe the Bible to be saying....

The Bible tells us exactly what God’s plans were concerning his human creation. Read Genesis 1:26-31…

“Then God said: “Let us make man in our image, according to our likeness, and let them have in subjection the fish of the sea and the flying creatures of the heavens and the domestic animals and all the earth and every creeping animal that is moving on the earth.” 27 And God went on to create the man in his image, in God’s image he created him; male and female he created them. 28 Further, God blessed them, and God said to them: “Be fruitful and become many, fill the earth and subdue it, and have in subjection the fish of the sea and the flying creatures of the heavens and every living creature that is moving on the earth.”

29 Then God said: “Here I have given to you every seed-bearing plant that is on the entire earth and every tree with seed-bearing fruit. Let them serve as food for you. 30 And to every wild animal of the earth and to every flying creature of the heavens and to everything moving on the earth in which there is life, I have given all green vegetation for food.” And it was so.

31 After that God saw everything he had made, and look! it was very good. And there was evening and there was morning, a sixth day.”

There it is….all laid out. God created mankind in his image because he was to be God’s representative here on earth, to take care of God’s creation as he himself would…they were to cultivate the ground and “subdue” it. (To bring the land outside of the garden under their care and control, untill the whole world became a paradise.) They were to “fill the earth” with their children (not just the garden) and the more children they had, the more workers there would be for the task at hand. Given bodies built for work, they would find the work as satisfying and enjoyable as God himself had in creating it.

But we can’t prove anything.....it’s just what one comes to believe and how they came to that belief.

We can use the Bible to answer all our questions…..because it does. But you first have to know what it says….
People base their beliefs on what they “think” the Bible says, not what it actually says.

Beliefs are all over the forum......all differ....

And most of those beliefs come out of human imagination, not the Bible. If you use the Bible to answer your questions, without introducing ideas from outside sources, it all makes sense. The big picture is awesome….all made possible because God loved us enough to send his son to rescue us from a situation that was forced on us…it’s not what we chose. This reinforces the issue of consequences…and how far reaching the results of sin can be….and how devastating our choices can be in affecting others.

 

[Ritajanice]

I see that a little differently to you Ritajanice. God’s omniscience is his ability to know all things, but he can limit what he chooses to know to accommodate the free will of his intelligent creation.

God is all knowing, I don’t think that he says in scripture , where I’ve highlighted and underlined....if that is true, scripture please.

All of the things that God has chosen to do revolves around the choices they have made without his interference…..by the use of their free will. Without free will, no choices can be made. Humans were given choices.

By allowing them to do that, he can create lessons for us regarding the consequences of our actions. The Bible is as much about bad examples as good ones. We learn much from both.

As a non believer at one time...I was in ignorance of the choices that I had made in my life and the devastating impact it would have on my family.

My eyes and ears were blinded...by the enemy..God allowed it, then used all that devastation for the good and for his glory..when I became Born Again.

I disagree again. The spirit son who became satan the devil was posted as a guardian Cherub in the garden of Eden, (Ezek 28:13-15; 17) apparently a beautiful creature, carried away by his own magnificence.…..and he was privy to all that was transpiring there in the garden. It doesn’t say how long he was posted there before he started on a wrong track of thinking. (James 1:14-15) At some stage he began to envy the worship that the humans gave to their Creator.

Just out of curiosity , does the word call Satan the spirit Son ? before he rebelled against God?

His fellow angels were his equals in power so at best, he could be their leader, but to these lower intelligent creatures, he could be a god.….if only he could separate them from the true God by disobedience to that one command…..What Satan said to Eve, is what he was thinking about himself…”you will be like God”…

Again did Satan know or understand pride,..he deceived Eve, did he know the consequences of deceiving Eve...I don’t think the word explains , wether Satan understood pride and it’s consequences once his pride took over..I can see his pride by reading the word...I don’t think there is anywhere in scripture where Satan understood what pride is.?....or even how pride manifested itself in him?

The Bible tells us exactly what God’s plans were concerning his human creation. Read Genesis 1:26-31…

“Then God said: “Let us make man in our image, according to our likeness, and let them have in subjection the fish of the sea and the flying creatures of the heavens and the domestic animals and all the earth and every creeping animal that is moving on the earth.” 27 And God went on to create the man in his image, in God’s image he created him; male and female he created them. 28 Further, God blessed them, and God said to them: “Be fruitful and become many, fill the earth and subdue it, and have in subjection the fish of the sea and the flying creatures of the heavens and every living creature that is moving on the earth.”

29 Then God said: “Here I have given to you every seed-bearing plant that is on the entire earth and every tree with seed-bearing fruit. Let them serve as food for you. 30 And to every wild animal of the earth and to every flying creature of the heavens and to everything moving on the earth in which there is life, I have given all green vegetation for food.” And it was so.

31 After that God saw everything he had made, and look! it was very good. And there was evening and there was morning, a sixth day.”

There it is….all laid out. God created mankind in his image because he was to be God’s representative here on earth, to take care of God’s creation as he himself would…they were to cultivate the ground and “subdue” it. (To bring the land outside of the garden under their care and control, untill the whole world became a paradise.) They were to “fill the earth” with their children (not just the garden) and the more children they had, the more workers there would be for the task at hand. Given bodies built for work, they would find the work as satisfying and enjoyable as God himself had in creating it.

We can use the Bible to answer all our questions…..because it does. But you first have to know what it says….
People base their beliefs on what they “think” the Bible says, not what it actually says.

And most of those beliefs come out of human imagination, not the Bible. If you use the Bible to answer your questions, without introducing ideas from outside sources, it all makes sense. The big picture is awesome….all made possible because God loved us enough to send his son to rescue us from a situation that was forced on us…it’s not what we chose. This reinforces the issue of consequences…and how far reaching the results of sin can be….and how devastating our choices can be in affecting others.

Thank you for your own summary/ commentary ,Aunty.
My belief Aunty is....there is nothing that God doesn’t know...he has a much bigger plan, what that plan is I don’t know, but, I know that I can trust him 100%.

, we need to know that it wasn't God's fault Satan rebelled and sinned, it was Satan's pride. He desired to be like God and overthrow Him. See Isaiah 14:12-17. So yes, God knew Satan would sin, but God created Satan with a free will to either love God or not.

I’m Born Again Aunty, God has given me freewill I believe to either obey his will or go against it.

Maybe the Angel didn’t know the consequences of going against God, same as Adam and Eve..we have no way of knowing if they knew what the consequences would be either.
That’s when sin entered the world...by being disobedient to God...or in Satan’s case wanting to be God...there is a question mark ? on wether Satan knew what the consequences would be, by him wanting to overthrow God,imo.
I know what the consequences of deliberately going against God’s will would mean...therefore my will ,I surrender over to Gods will.



We also see.....The Bible's teaching of sin starts in the garden, where Adam violated God's prohibition from eating from the forbidden tree. There, we discover that prior to man's fall, sin existed in the form of the tempting serpent Satan.
I don’t believe that Satan knew what pride was, yet he wanted to be God..did I know what pride was before I became Born Again...nope....I know what it means now and there is not one person on the planet, who hasn’t been prideful imo, it’s what we do with that pride, Aunty....pride is pretty evident on the forum, in fact I would say it’s rife, including mine at times....pride doesn’t want to lower its status....yet pride is in the self..which is not from God.

Proverbs 16:18 warns, “Pride goes before destruction, and a haughty spirit before a fall.” In Mark 7, Jesus explained that it's not what is outside of a person that defiles him, but what is inside, what is in the heart—including pride: “For from within, out of the heart of man, come evil thoughts, sexual immorality,

That’s my commentary/ summary Auntie....I believe many of us through pride think we know it all and that our truth is the only truth....that’s why there are so many arguments on the forum...many don’t want to let go of their pride or even understand what pride is.

My belief is...I’m in the will of God...I Love God......can I go against God...most certainly....would I deliberately go against God....not in a million years...because I know what the consequences would be...

Short commentary

Defying God's authority in any area of our life gives Satan an opportunity to wreak spiritual havoc(Ephesians 4:27). And, as Galatians 6:7 tells us, rebellion against the Lord is always costly. In fact, the harsh truth is that we don't merely reap what we sow but often reap more than we sow and later than we sow.

Commentators have attributed Satan's rebellion to a number of motives, all of which stem from his great pride. These motives include: a refusal to bow down to mankind on the occasion of the creation of man—as in the Armenian, Georgian, and Latin versions of the Life of Adam and Eve.

Matthew 7:21-23​

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King James Version​

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21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity

 

[Ritajanice]

It’s like pride was introduced into the world by Satan , how did pride manifest itself in him, ok he wanted to be above God..yet did he have an understanding of his pride ?
..I don’t think the Bible answers that question.
Pride has to be understood, I only have come to understand pride the past 3 years.which comes by heart revelation...even then, one can still be proud...because it’s a mindset.its in the heart would you say Aunty?...Satan is the author of pride is he?
Anyway my post probably sounds confusing to some....thats my way of explaining my understanding of pride.
Edit to add...if one forces another to believe what they believe and continually forces their view onto you, I would call that control and pride....that happens a lot on the forum from a lot of us..​

◄ Isaiah 46 ►

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Berean Standard Bible Par ▾ Babylon’s Idols 1Bel crouches; Nebo cowers. Their idols weigh down beasts and cattle. The images you carry are burdensome, a load to the weary animal. 2The gods cower; they crouch together, unable to relieve the burden; but they themselves go into captivity. 3“Listen to Me, O house of Jacob, all the remnant of the house of Israel, who have been sustained from the womb, carried along since birth. 4Even to your old age, I will be the same, and I will bear you up when you turn gray. I have made you, and I will carry you; I will sustain you and deliver you. 5To whom will you liken Me or count Me equal? To whom will you compare Me, that we should be alike? 6They pour out their bags of gold and weigh out silver on scales; they hire a goldsmith to fashion it into a god, so they can bow down and worship. 7They lift it to their shoulder and carry it along; they set it in its place, and there it stands, not budging from that spot. They cry out to it, but it does not answer; it saves no one from his troubles. 8Remember this and be brave; take it to heart, you transgressors! 9Remember what happened long ago, for I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is none like Me. 10I declare the end from the beginning, and from ancient times what is still to come. I say, ‘My purpose will stand, and all My good pleasure I will accomplish.’ 11I summon a bird of prey from the east, a man for My purpose from a far-off land. Truly I have spoken, and truly I will bring it to pass. I have planned it, and I will surely do it. 12Listen to Me, you stubborn people, far removed from righteousness: 13I am bringing My righteousness near; it is not far away, and My salvation will not be delayed. I will grant salvation to Zion and adorn Israel with My splendor Psalm 139 King James Version​ 139 O lord, thou hast searched me, and known me. 2 Thou knowest my downsitting and mine uprising, thou understandest my thought afar off. 3 Thou compassest my path and my lying down, and art acquainted with all my ways. 4 For there is not a word in my tongue, but, lo, O Lord, thou knowest it altogether. 5 Thou hast beset me behind and before, and laid thine hand upon me. 6 Such knowledge is too wonderful for me; it is high, I cannot attain unto it. 7 Whither shall I go from thy spirit? or whither shall I flee from thy presence? 8 If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there. 9 If I take the wings of the morning, and dwell in the uttermost parts of the sea; 10 Even there shall thy hand lead me, and thy right hand shall hold me. 11 If I say, Surely the darkness shall cover me; even the night shall be light about me. 12 Yea, the darkness hideth not from thee; but the night shineth as the day: the darkness and the light are both alike to thee. 13 For thou hast possessed my reins: thou hast covered me in my mother's womb. 14 I will praise thee; for I am fearfully and wonderfully made: marvellous are thy works; and that my soul knoweth right well. 15 My substance was not hid from thee, when I was made in secret, and curiously wrought in the lowest parts of the earth. 16 Thine eyes did see my substance, yet being unperfect; and in thy book all my members were written, which in continuance were fashioned, when as yet there was none of them. 17 How precious also are thy thoughts unto me, O God! how great is the sum of them! 18 If I should count them, they are more in number than the sand: when I awake, I am still with thee. 19 Surely thou wilt slay the wicked, O God: depart from me therefore, ye bloody men. 20 For they speak against thee wickedly, and thine enemies take thy name in vain. 21 Do not I hate them, O Lord, that hate thee? and am not I grieved with those that rise up against thee? 22 I hate them with perfect hatred: I count them mine enemies. 23 Search me, O God, and know my heart: try me, and know my thoughts: 24 And see if there be any wicked way in me, and lead me in the way everlasting.

Short commentary.

Fifteen hundred years after Noah's great flood, King Solomon was receiving some advice from his father, King David, who said this, ” … for the Lord searches all hearts, and understands every intent of the thoughts” 1 Chronicles 28:9. In other words, “Be aware of what's in your head, son. God sees it.”

 

[ProDeo]

God gave all his children free will….without which no choices could have been made, and it would have been pointless to offer them, and their consequences. Think about that. God did not plan for the devil to rebel. If Adam and his wife had simply obeyed their Creator, we would not be having this conversation.

Agreed, like to add that the devil and A&E did not have to fall, we read of fallen angels but the majority of angels are still sinless, do you agree?

If God predestined our lives from before we were conceived, then we can blame him directly for all the human suffering in this world…what kind of fiend plans something like that? Think of all the despots down through history and the millions of lives lost in the cruelest fashion and ask why a loving God would plan that?

And that's why I see that somewhat different, I believe God knew the consequence of free will on beforehand, He knew that sooner or later evil (the opposite of Him) would rear its ugly head, He knew the devil would fall from grace and later A&E also. And yet God proceeded, but not before He had the perfect solution, the Lamb slain, can you feel the love?

John the Baptist was not Elijah, but fulfilled the role of Elijah. He was the messenger sent ahead prepare the people for the arrival of their Messiah…..If you remember at the transfiguration, the apostles saw Elijah and Moses speaking with Jesus in his glorified form. If John also said that no one went to heaven before Jesus, (John 3:13) then where were Moses and Elijah when Jesus walked the earth? Where did they come from?

Jesus explained that it was a “vision”…(Matt 17:9) so the apostles collectively saw what Jesus had promised…..that some would see him in his glorified form before the kingdom came….(Matt 16:28) Moses and Elijah were represented in the vision as the law and the prophets, which led to Christ.

Jesus specifically said John the Baptist was Elijah -

Matt 11:12 From the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven has suffered violence, and the violent take it by force.
Matt 11:13 For all the Prophets and the Law prophesied until John,
Matt 11:14 and if you are willing to accept it, he is Elijah who is to come.

I will react on the rest of you post in separate post.

 

[IronMaiden]

Plus God knew that his Angel would want to be God.

And who is that angel? Do you know?

 

[ProDeo]

So when I actually started to study the Bible instead of theology, I got to find out all the things the Bible teaches compared with the ridiculous stuff taught by the churches.

I found out what “the second death” means, and why it’s called that.
I found out what “hell“ is….and it’s not a bit scary.
I found out what “the lake of fire” is and it’s no more scary than “hell” is.
We can talk more about this….

I am using the YLT, it has the correct translations for hell - Sheol, Gehenna and Tartarus, the latter mentioned only one time, but Gehenna for instance 7 times in Matthew. As you know well you have to understand the 3 first before you can form an opinion. In a former Bible forum (it no longer exists) I listened very carefully to the various -- annihilation vs ECT -- debates over there and both sides had points, but no consensus, there are always buts.... for instance Jesus Himself said -

Matt 25:46 And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.” [ESV]
Matt 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal. [KJV]
Matt 25:46 And these shall go away to punishment age-during, but the righteous to life age-during.' [YLT]

Why did Jesus not refer to Gehenna here?

And about the immortality of the soul we previously talked about -

1. When Jesus speaks about outer darkness He did not say people will die there.

2. Outside are the dogs and sorcerers and the sexually immoral and murderers and idolaters, and everyone who loves and practices falsehood. -- Rev 22:15

Is this (enough) evidence for the immortality of the soul?

Maybe, maybe not.

Also no annihilation in these verses, people are still alive and it ain't fun over there.

My conclusion , I have no idea who is right.

Part III in the evening, have to go.

 

[Aunty Jane]

Agreed, like to add that the devil and A&E did not have to fall, we read of fallen angels but the majority of angels are still sinless, do you agree?

Yes….after sin entered both realms, the testing and sifting of his intelligent creation (both angels and humans) had to go to the appropriate degree, or God’s purpose could not come to its proper conclusion.

As Isa 55:11 states…
”So my word that goes out of my mouth will be.
It will not return to me without results,
But it will certainly accomplish whatever is my delight,
And it will have sure success in what I send it to do.”

If we have no understanding as to what God intended to accomplish at the beginning, we will not have a clear picture of how it ends. (Rev 21:2-4)

And that's why I see that somewhat different, I believe God knew the consequence of free will on beforehand, He knew that sooner or later evil (the opposite of Him) would rear its ugly head, He knew the devil would fall from grace and later A&E also. And yet God proceeded, but not before He had the perfect solution, the Lamb slain, can you feel the love?

Giving his children everlasting life (not immortality) was a risk, so he made it conditional. Understanding the difference between these two conditions is important. “The tree of life“ was there in the garden, as the means that God supplied so that his obedient children could partake of that tree and “live forever”. (Gen 3:22-24) Once sin entered the picture, that tree was placed off limits, with angelic guards to ensure that it stayed that way.

A simple rule applied in both realms….obey and live….or disobey and lose the gift of life. This way God had full control over what his children chose to do, having contingency plans for all choices and foreknowing all outcomes, yet not interfering with their choices. His lamb would come into the world to save them from their now defective selves….a loving provision indeed.

His children, by their respect for his Universal Sovereignty, or lack of it, would choose their own destiny.
Obeying their loving Creator would cause them no harm at all, but there was an expectation of a wonderful life if they did. Conversely, if they chose to disobey him, they would bring the penalty on themselves. They knew what the penalty was before they chose to disobey.….so what is death? Is it the end of life, or a continuation of it somewhere else?
The devil tempted the woman to bait his real target….Adam, forcing him to divide his loyalties. The future of the whole human race was on his shoulders, and he chose badly, and not only suffered the consequences himself but genetically altered his genome somehow and passed those faulty genes on to his children.

Sin did not enter the human race through the woman, but the blame is placed squarely on the man. (Rom 5:12; 1 Tim 2:13-14) Have you ever wondered what God would have done if the circumstances had been different….if Eve had asked her husband about what the devil said to her?….or if Adam had refused his wife’s offer of the forbidden fruit? God was prepared for all outcomes. It didn’t have to end as it did….

Jesus specifically said John the Baptist was Elijah -

Matt 11:12 From the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven has suffered violence, and the violent take it by force.
Matt 11:13 For all the Prophets and the Law prophesied until John,
Matt 11:14 and if you are willing to accept it, he is Elijah who is to come.

Since the dead are not alive, (Eccl 9:5, 10) and the Bible does not teach reincarnation, then John B was not literally “Elijah” but represented his mission. No one went to heaven before Jesus (John 3:13) so where would literal “Elijah” come from if Jesus was still alive and he died before Jesus was executed?

Tell me your thoughts…..

 

[ProDeo]

Part III

I don’t have theories….all that I believe must be solidly based on the Bible.…and it all must fit into the big picture….one that begins in Genesis and ends in Revelation. (Isa 55:11) If you know what Genesis teaches about God’s first purpose for us humans here on planet Earth, then it all makes sense.

Studying the Scriptures questions may come up and sometimes a question is more important than the answer. And answers aren't always satisfying as it often raises a new question. Theories ain't bad, a theory is not proof and as long as one is not sure keep it to yourself.

We have put our complete trust in the Scriptures, writings of 2500 years old and yet we know (I have seen you have posted about it) that there have been additions by scribes (the long end of Mark, the woman caught in adultery, the Lord's Prayer, the notorious comma), we don't even have the original NT manuscripts, only copies from copies. RJ is right on the issue that the Scriptures are written by men, just put the 4 resurrection stories on a page and except for the main message -- He is risen -- notice the differences on the details, the Holy Spirit does not make such mistakes. Nevertheless I consider the Scriptures inspired, its main message is unique, consistent, a love story, it completely matches with my 2 experiences in half an hour, baptized in God's love, born again, and it's the only thing I know 100% sure and kept me from falling away.

Meaning to say, there are subjects in Scripture that don't match, end-of-time theories, none is without issues, annihilation vs ECT, unclear. I have to live with that.

Again, if we understand what Genesis teaches about life before the fall, then we can understand what life will be like when all is restored to God’s original purpose……which never went away (Rev 21:2-4)…..there was just a necessary detour in order to address the issues that the devil raised in Eden, slandering his Creator and leading the humans astray in order to obtain their worship. Lessons needed to be taught about obedience…because when God says, “DON’T” there are always consequences….ones we can avoid if we allow him to tell us what is good and evil, and obey him in all things. It is obvious that humans cannot really tell the difference….many believe that evil is good and good is evil (Isa 5:20)….that’s how the devil conducts his business.

Amen to that.

 

[TheHC]

God is all knowing, I don’t think that he says in scripture , where I’ve highlighted and underlined....if that is true, scripture please.

Please read about Abraham offering up Isaac.

Genesis 22

After Abraham tried to, but was stopped….. What did Jehovah say?
Genesis 22:12
“Do not harm the boy, and do not do anything at all to him, for now I do know that you are God-fearing because you have not withheld your son, your only one, from me.”

Jehovah didn’t know if Abraham would do it or not.

Why would God put Abraham through such an emotional test, if He knew the outcome?

Look at Genesis 4, with Cain.
Why did Jehovah God try to reason with Cain & get him to stop, what use would that be if God already knew Cain was going to accomplish it?

 

[Aunty Jane]

I am using the YLT, it has the correct translations for hell - Sheol, Gehenna and Tartarus, the latter mentioned only one time, but Gehenna for instance 7 times in Matthew. As you know well you have to understand the 3 first before you can form an opinion.

Yes, it is important to understand each word in their original language as the ones writing intended the meaning.…not as someone else interpreted that writing according to their own beliefs. “All scripture is inspired of God”…..translations are the work of men. We need to do our homework.

“Sheol” is Hebrew for a place where the dead are not in a conscious condition, who are unable to think, see, hear or to plan or to do anything. (Eccl 9:5,6, 10. Psalm 115:17) The Jews did not have immortality of the soul as their foundation for understanding what death is. It is the very opposite of life….the only way to restore life is by resurrection, which is all through the Bible. A resurrection is a restoration of life...not a continuation of it. No “immortal souls” existed in Israel’s Scripture. In fact, these two words do not exist side by side in any passage of Scripture.…OT or NT.

It is important to understand what Jesus meant when he spoke of “Gehenna” and also what “Tartarus” meant…translating all these words as “hell” is totally misleading and designed to support a satanic lie that God somehow needs to punish souls eternally for the sins of a short lifetime. In what understanding of God’s perfect justice does that stand to reason?

In God’s law, the punishment fits the crime, and no torture was ever involved, nor was incarceration. Under God’s law the perpetrator compensated his victim by going into service to him until he paid back more than he stole, or they were put to death for capital crimes, clearly outlined in the Law.

In a former Bible forum (it no longer exists) I listened very carefully to the various -- annihilation vs ECT -- debates over there and both sides had points, but no consensus, there are always buts.... for instance Jesus Himself said -

Matt 25:46 And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.” [ESV]
Matt 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal. [KJV]
Matt 25:46 And these shall go away to punishment age-during, but the righteous to life age-during.' [YLT]

Why did Jesus not refer to Gehenna here?

Eternal death is eternal punishment...because it never ends. Once a person suffers the second death, there is no coming back from that. The first death, (Adamic death) is defeated by a resurrection, which Jesus himself demonstrated......the most famous of which was Lazarus. Where was Lazarus before Jesus raised him? Jesus said he was “sleeping”. (John 11:11-14) So if Lazarus was in heaven as many believe, what was the point of bringing him back to this life only to die again later? Was he doing Lazarus any favors?

What do you think?

And about the immortality of the soul we previously talked about -

1. When Jesus speaks about outer darkness He did not say people will die there.

2. Outside are the dogs and sorcerers and the sexually immoral and murderers and idolaters, and everyone who loves and practices falsehood. -- Rev 22:15

Is this (enough) evidence for the immortality of the soul?

Maybe, maybe not.

Also no annihilation in these verses, people are still alive and it ain't fun over there.

That is the point….those people are totally rejected from the Kingdom…so who are they, and what is this “outer darkness” into which they are cast?…..what is it “outside” of?

Why did the Pharisees weep and gnash their teeth at Jesus teachings?
In his illustration of the “wheat and the weeds”, the disciples asked…”Explain to us the illustration of the weeds in the field.” 37 In response he said: “The sower of the fine seed is the Son of man; 38 the field is the world. As for the fine seed, these are the sons of the Kingdom, but the weeds are the sons of the wicked one, 39 and the enemy who sowed them is the Devil. The harvest is a conclusion of a system of things, and the reapers are angels.“

So we are living now in the “last days” of Satan’s world and the reapers are at the ready to collect the weeds and dispose of them first. When Jesus arrives as judge, they are still alive though in a spiritually dead state.

What did Jesus say was to be done to them…?

“40 Therefore, just as the weeds are collected and burned with fire, so it will be in the conclusion of the system of things. 41 The Son of man will send his angels, and they will collect out from his Kingdom all things that cause stumbling and people who practice lawlessness, 42 and they will pitch them into the fiery furnace. There is where their weeping and the gnashing of their teeth will be. 43 At that time the righteous ones will shine as brightly as the sun in the Kingdom of their Father. Let the one who has ears listen.“

So when was Jesus expected to arrive for the second time? What “sign” did he give to his apostles to indicate that he was present, though unseen to human eyes? (Matt 24:3-14) He outlined a series of world wide events that would indicate, not that Jesus was coming, but that he was already here. If it was a visible coming, then why would those ‘signs’ be needed?

The weeds of Jesus’ parable are separated out before the judge passes sentence (at the conclusion of the last days)…they are still alive physically but dead to God in their beliefs and practices…..the “wheat” have exposed their lies and false religious ideas and they are bent on persecuting the true Christians because they paint them as apostates, just as the Jews persecuted Jesus and his disciples, accusing them of apostasy as well.

History is repeating right under everyone’s nose.


Revelation is an intriguing book, full of illustrative language…..but to whom is it written? And when will we see its fulfillment?

My conclusion , I have no idea who is right.

This is why we have to study God’s word…..all of it, to see where all the pieces fit. It is God’s eternal purpose being carried out, but first we have to know why we are here, and what God intended human life to be. We were created to fulfill a purpose….so what is our purpose here on this beautifully prepared Earth?

Is it a training ground for heaven? Or is there a much bigger picture that the devil has obscured with his lies?
If you have no big picture, it will all seem to be confusing and open to many suggestions, masquerading as Bible truth. There can be only one truth….and only God can reveal it to whomever he deems a fit subject for his Kingdom. (John 6:44; 65) God is choosing us as much as we think we are choosing hm...

 

[Ritajanice]

Please read about Abraham offering up Isaac.

Genesis 22

After Abraham tried to, but was stopped….. What did Jehovah say?
Genesis 22:12
“Do not harm the boy, and do not do anything at all to him, for now I do know that you are God-fearing because you have not withheld your son, your only one, from me.”

Jehovah didn’t know if Abraham would do it or not.

Why would God put Abraham through such an emotional test, if He knew the outcome?

Look at Genesis 4, with Cain.
Why did Jehovah God try to reason with Cain & get him to stop, what use would that be if God already knew Cain was going to accomplish it?

I will once again read those scriptures regarding Abraham and Cain, then get back to you.


In the meantime.

1 John 3:20 in whatever our heart condemns us; for God is greater than our heart and knows all things. Psalm 139:4 Even before there is a word on my tongue, Behold, O Lord, You know it all.

Psalm 139

King James Version

​

139 O lord, thou hast searched me, and known me.
2 Thou knowest my downsitting and mine uprising, thou understandest my thought afar off.
3 Thou compassest my path and my lying down, and art acquainted with all my ways.
4 For there is not a word in my tongue, but, lo, O Lord, thou knowest it altogether.
5 Thou hast beset me behind and before, and laid thine hand upon me.
6 Such knowledge is too wonderful for me; it is high, I cannot attain unto it.
7 Whither shall I go from thy spirit? or whither shall I flee from thy presence?
8 If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there.
9 If I take the wings of the morning, and dwell in the uttermost parts of the sea;
10 Even there shall thy hand lead me, and thy right hand shall hold me.
11 If I say, Surely the darkness shall cover me; even the night shall be light about me.
12 Yea, the darkness hideth not from thee; but the night shineth as the day: the darkness and the light are both alike to thee.
13 For thou hast possessed my reins: thou hast covered me in my mother's womb.
14 I will praise thee; for I am fearfully and wonderfully made: marvellous are thy works; and that my soul knoweth right well.
15 My substance was not hid from thee, when I was made in secret, and curiously wrought in the lowest parts of the earth.
16 Thine eyes did see my substance, yet being unperfect; and in thy book all my members were written, which in continuance were fashioned, when as yet there was none of them.
17 How precious also are thy thoughts unto me, O God! how great is the sum of them!
18 If I should count them, they are more in number than the sand: when I awake, I am still with thee.
19 Surely thou wilt slay the wicked, O God: depart from me therefore, ye bloody men.
20 For they speak against thee wickedly, and thine enemies take thy name in vain.
21 Do not I hate them, O Lord, that hate thee? and am not I grieved with those that rise up against thee?
22 I hate them with perfect hatred: I count them mine enemies.
23 Search me, O God, and know my heart: try me, and know my thoughts:
24 And see if there be any wicked way in me, and lead me in the way everlasting.

 

[ProDeo]

Please read about Abraham offering up Isaac.

Genesis 22

After Abraham tried to, but was stopped….. What did Jehovah say?
Genesis 22:12
“Do not harm the boy, and do not do anything at all to him, for now I do know that you are God-fearing because you have not withheld your son, your only one, from me.”

Jehovah didn’t know if Abraham would do it or not.

Why would God put Abraham through such an emotional test, if He knew the outcome?

Look at Genesis 4, with Cain.
Why did Jehovah God try to reason with Cain & get him to stop, what use would that be if God already knew Cain was going to accomplish it?

I think you missing the point of the Abraham | Isaac story, note the similarities with the Father who sacrifices His Son on Golgotha and NOT withholding the knife, allowing it to happen.

1. Abraham (father) - God the Father
2. Isaac (son) - Jesus (Son)
3. Isaac (the long promised son) - Jesus, the long promised Messiah
4. Isaac born in a miraculous way - Jesus born by the Holy Spirit
5. Abraham is told to travel 3 days to Mount Moria, that's Jerusalem [!!]
6. Isaac (the son) had to carry the wood that would kill him all the way up to the mountain - Jesus carrying the cross that would kill Him.

A prophetic story that happened 2000 years before Christ.

Of course God knew that Abraham would be obedient, it's the same as with things like predestination, God wants that things are being played out, as a testimony for all, us, the heavenly creatures, God showing His love, His righteousness. He knows if your name and my name are written in the Book of Life, nevertheless He wants it to happen and that we live out lives.

 

[Aunty Jane]

I am using the YLT, it has the correct translations for hell - Sheol, Gehenna and Tartarus, the latter mentioned only one time, but Gehenna for instance 7 times in Matthew. As you know well you have to understand the 3 first before you can form an opinion.

Yes, it is important to understand each word in their original language as the ones writing intended the meaning.…not as someone else interpreted that writing according to their own beliefs after manny centuries have passed. “All scripture is inspired of God”…..translations are the work of men. We need to do our homework.

“Sheol” is Hebrew for a place where the dead are not in a conscious condition, unable to think or plan or to do anything. (Eccl 9:5,6, 10. Psalm 115:17) The Jews did not have immortality of the soul as their foundation for understanding what death is. It is the very opposite of life….the only way to restore life is by resurrection, which is all through the Bible. No immortal souls existed in Israel’s Scripture. In fact, these two words do not exist side by side in any passage of Scripture.…OT or NT.

It is important to understand what Jesus meant when he spoke of “Gehenna” and also what “Tartarus” means…translating all these words as “hell” is totally misleading and designed to support a satanic lie that God somehow needs to punish souls eternally for the sins of a short lifetime. In what understanding of God’s perfect justice does that stand to reason?

In God’s law, the punishment fits the crime, and no torture was ever involved, nor was incarceration. Under God’s law the perpetrator compensated his victim, or they were put to death for capital crimes, clearly outlined in the Law.

In a former Bible forum (it no longer exists) I listened very carefully to the various -- annihilation vs ECT -- debates over there and both sides had points, but no consensus, there are always buts.... for instance Jesus Himself said -

Matt 25:46 And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.” [ESV]
Matt 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal. [KJV]
Matt 25:46 And these shall go away to punishment age-during, but the righteous to life age-during.' [YLT]

Why did Jesus not refer to Gehenna here?

Eternal death is eternal punishment...because it never ends. Once a person suffers the second death, there is no coming back from that. The first death, (Adamic death) is defeated by a resurrection, which Jesus himself demonstrated, the most famous of which was Lazarus. Where was Lazarus before Jesus raised him? Jesus said he was “sleeping”. (John 11:11-14) So if Lazarus was in heaven as many believe, what was the point of bringing him back to this life only to die again later? Was he doing Lazarus any favors?

And about the immortality of the soul we previously talked about -

1. When Jesus speaks about outer darkness He did not say people will die there.

2. Outside are the dogs and sorcerers and the sexually immoral and murderers and idolaters, and everyone who loves and practices falsehood. -- Rev 22:15

Is this (enough) evidence for the immortality of the soul?

Maybe, maybe not.

Also no annihilation in these verses, people are still alive and it ain't fun over there.

That is the point….those people are totally rejected from the Kingdom…so who are they, and what is this “outer darkness” into which they are cast?…..what is it “outside” of?

Why did the Pharisees weep and gnash their teeth at Jesus teachings?
In his illustration of the “wheat and the weeds”, the disciples asked…”Explain to us the illustration of the weeds in the field.” 37 In response he said: “The sower of the fine seed is the Son of man; 38 the field is the world. As for the fine seed, these are the sons of the Kingdom, but the weeds are the sons of the wicked one, 39 and the enemy who sowed them is the Devil. The harvest is a conclusion of a system of things, and the reapers are angels.“

So we are living now in the “last days” of Satan’s world and the reapers are at the ready to collect the weeds and dispose of them first. When Jesus arrives, they are still alive though in a spiritually dead state.

What did Jesus say was to be done to them…?

“40 Therefore, just as the weeds are collected and burned with fire, so it will be in the conclusion of the system of things. 41 The Son of man will send his angels, and they will collect out from his Kingdom all things that cause stumbling and people who practice lawlessness, 42 and they will pitch them into the fiery furnace. There is where their weeping and the gnashing of their teeth will be. 43 At that time the righteous ones will shine as brightly as the sun in the Kingdom of their Father. Let the one who has ears listen.“

So when was Jesus expected to arrive for the second time?

The weeds are separated out before the judge passes sentence…they are still alive physically but dead to God in their beliefs and practices…..the “wheat” have exposed their lies and false religious ideas and they are bent on persecuting the true Christians because they paint them as apostates, just as the Jews persecuted Jesus and his disciples, accusing them of apostasy as well.


Revelation is an intriguing book, full of illustrative language…..but to whom is it written? And when will we see its fulfillment?

My conclusion , I have no idea who is right.

This is why we have to study God’s word…..all of it, to see where all the pieces fit. It is God’s eternal purpose being carried out, but first we have to know why we are here, and what God intended human life to be. We were created to fulfill a purpose….so what is our purpose here on this beautifully prepared Earth?
Is it a training ground for heaven? Or is there a much bigger picture that the devil has obscured with his lies?
If you have no big picture, it will all seem to be confusing and open to many suggestions, masquerading as Bible truth. There can be only one….and only God can reveal it to whomever he deems to be a fit subject for his Kingdom. (John 6:44; 65)

 

[Jack]

The WitchTower convinces JW's they are Greek and Hebrew experts. That way they can TWIST nearly every verse in the Bible, just like Satan.

 

[ProDeo]

Yes, it is important to understand each word in their original language as the ones writing intended the meaning.…not as someone else interpreted that writing according to their own beliefs. “All scripture is inspired of God”…..translations are the work of men. We need to do our homework.

“Sheol” is Hebrew for a place where the dead are not in a conscious condition, who are unable to think, see, hear or to plan or to do anything. (Eccl 9:5,6, 10. Psalm 115:17) The Jews did not have immortality of the soul as their foundation for understanding what death is. It is the very opposite of life….the only way to restore life is by resurrection, which is all through the Bible. A resurrection is a restoration of life...not a continuation of it. No “immortal souls” existed in Israel’s Scripture. In fact, these two words do not exist side by side in any passage of Scripture.…OT or NT.

It is important to understand what Jesus meant when he spoke of “Gehenna” and also what “Tartarus” meant…translating all these words as “hell” is totally misleading and designed to support a satanic lie that God somehow needs to punish souls eternally for the sins of a short lifetime. In what understanding of God’s perfect justice does that stand to reason?

In God’s law, the punishment fits the crime, and no torture was ever involved, nor was incarceration. Under God’s law the perpetrator compensated his victim by going into service to him until he paid back more than he stole, or they were put to death for capital crimes, clearly outlined in the Law.

Eternal death is eternal punishment...because it never ends. Once a person suffers the second death, there is no coming back from that. The first death, (Adamic death) is defeated by a resurrection, which Jesus himself demonstrated......the most famous of which was Lazarus. Where was Lazarus before Jesus raised him? Jesus said he was “sleeping”. (John 11:11-14) So if Lazarus was in heaven as many believe, what was the point of bringing him back to this life only to die again later? Was he doing Lazarus any favors?

What do you think?

That you are speaking against Christ words -

Matt 25:46 And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.

Dan 12:2 And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

Does not fit with Annihilation.

That is the point….those people are totally rejected from the Kingdom…so who are they, and what is this “outer darkness” into which they are cast?…..what is it “outside” of?

Why did the Pharisees weep and gnash their teeth at Jesus teachings?
In his illustration of the “wheat and the weeds”, the disciples asked…”Explain to us the illustration of the weeds in the field.” 37 In response he said: “The sower of the fine seed is the Son of man; 38 the field is the world. As for the fine seed, these are the sons of the Kingdom, but the weeds are the sons of the wicked one, 39 and the enemy who sowed them is the Devil. The harvest is a conclusion of a system of things, and the reapers are angels.“

So we are living now in the “last days” of Satan’s world and the reapers are at the ready to collect the weeds and dispose of them first. When Jesus arrives as judge, they are still alive though in a spiritually dead state.

What did Jesus say was to be done to them…?

“40 Therefore, just as the weeds are collected and burned with fire, so it will be in the conclusion of the system of things. 41 The Son of man will send his angels, and they will collect out from his Kingdom all things that cause stumbling and people who practice lawlessness, 42 and they will pitch them into the fiery furnace. There is where their weeping and the gnashing of their teeth will be. 43 At that time the righteous ones will shine as brightly as the sun in the Kingdom of their Father. Let the one who has ears listen.“

So when was Jesus expected to arrive for the second time? What “sign” did he give to his apostles to indicate that he was present, though unseen to human eyes? (Matt 24:3-14) He outlined a series of world wide events that would indicate, not that Jesus was coming, but that he already here. If it was a visible coming, then why would those signs be needed?

The weeds of Jesus’ parable are separated out before the judge passes sentence (at the conclusion of the last days)…they are still alive physically but dead to God in their beliefs and practices…..the “wheat” have exposed their lies and false religious ideas and they are bent on persecuting the true Christians because they paint them as apostates, just as the Jews persecuted Jesus and his disciples, accusing them of apostasy as well.

History is repeating right under everyone’s nose.


Revelation is an intriguing book, full of illustrative language…..but to whom is it written? And when will we see its fulfillment?

This is why we have to study God’s word…..all of it, to see where all the pieces fit. It is God’s eternal purpose being carried out, but first we have to know why we are here, and what God intended human life to be. We were created to fulfill a purpose….so what is our purpose here on this beautifully prepared Earth?

Is it a training ground for heaven? Or is there a much bigger picture that the devil has obscured with his lies?
If you have no big picture, it will all seem to be confusing and open to many suggestions, masquerading as Bible truth. There can be only one truth….and only God can reveal it to whomever he deems a fit subject for his Kingdom. (John 6:44; 65) God is choosing us as much as we think we are choosing hm...

You are correct.

John 6:44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.

John 6:65 And he said, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father.”

It's known as being born again, do you agree with that?

 

[ProDeo]

Yes….after sin entered both realms, the testing and sifting of his intelligent creation (both angels and humans) had to go to the appropriate degree, or God’s purpose could not come to its proper conclusion.

As Isa 55:11 states…
”So my word that goes out of my mouth will be.
It will not return to me without results,
But it will certainly accomplish whatever is my delight,
And it will have sure success in what I send it to do.”

If we have no understanding as to what God intended to accomplish at the beginning, we will not have a clear picture of how it ends. (Rev 21:2-4)


Giving his children everlasting life (not immortality) was a risk, so he made it conditional. Understanding the difference between these two conditions is important. “The tree of life“ was there in the garden, as the means that God supplied so that his obedient children could partake of that tree and “live forever”. (Gen 3:22-24) Once sin entered the picture, that tree was placed off limits, with angelic guards to ensure that it stayed that way.

A simple rule applied in both realms….obey and live….or disobey and lose the gift of life. This way God had full control over what his children chose to do, having contingency plans for all choices and foreknowing all outcomes, yet not interfering with their choices. His lamb would come into the world to save them from their now defective selves….a loving provision indeed.

His children, by their respect for his Universal Sovereignty, or lack of it, would choose their own destiny.
Obeying their loving Creator would cause them no harm at all, but there was an expectation of a wonderful life if they did. Conversely, if they chose to disobey him, they would bring the penalty on themselves. They knew what the penalty was before they chose to disobey.….so what is death? Is it the end of life, or a continuation of it somewhere else?
The devil tempted the woman to bait his real target….Adam, forcing him to divide his loyalties. The future of the whole human race was on his shoulders, and he chose badly, and not only suffered the consequences himself but genetically altered his genome somehow and passed those faulty genes on to his children.

Sin did not enter the human race through the woman, but the blame is placed squarely on the man. (Rom 5:12; 1 Tim 2:13-14) Have you ever wondered what God would have done if the circumstances had been different….if Eve had asked her husband about what the devil said to her?….or if Adam had refused his wife’s offer of the forbidden fruit? God was prepared for all outcomes. It didn’t have to end as it did….

Since the dead are not alive, (Eccl 9:5, 10) and the Bible does not teach reincarnation, then John B was not literally “Elijah” but represented his mission. No one went to heaven before Jesus (John 3:13) so where would literal “Elijah” come from if Jesus was still alive and he died before Jesus was executed?

Tell me your thoughts…..

Again, you are speaking against Jesus words -

Matt 11:13 For all the Prophets and the Law prophesied until John,
Matt 11:14 and if you are willing to accept it, he is Elijah who is to come.
Matt 11:15 He who has ears to hear, let him hear.

My ears are okay.

And I am willing to accept His words.

With God everything is possible.

 

[Aunty Jane]

That you are speaking against Christ words -

Am I? Or am I speaking against the words that Christendom promotes concerning death? What is death if not the very opposite of life? Can eternal death be understood in those terms? Do we not understand ‘opposites’?

Matt 25:46 And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.

Dan 12:2 And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

Does not fit with Annihilation.

Eternal death is eternal punishment…..because it never ends. But since the dead are not conscious, there can be no suffering and what would it achieve for God to merely keep the wicked in existence only to torture them in flames forever? Think about it…..if God’s law to Israel never involved incarceration (no jails in Israel) and no punishment ever involved torture. What was the purpose of punishment? Wasn’t it to lead the wrongdoer to repentance? If no repentance is possible in this “hell” that the devil created, can you not see who’s character is reflected in such a teaching?

When the Israelites fell to false worship and began to sacrifice their children to the false god Molech, what was God’s response?

Jeremiah 7:31…
”They have built the high places of Topheth, which is in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to burn their sons and their daughters in the fire, which I did not command, and it did not come into My mind.” (NASB)
If God found this to be an abhorrent thing for the Israelites to do to their children, why would he then do it to his own?

You are correct.

John 6:44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.

John 6:65 And he said, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father.”

It's known as being born again, do you agree with that?

My belief involves two resurrections….when the Bible speaks of the “first resurrection” it is logical to expect another one to follow. (Rev 20:6) So understanding who is involved in that “first resurrection” and what role they will play, and where they will serve their God, is important….wouldn’t you say?

Since those involved in the “first resurrection” will be “kings and priests” with Christ in heaven, who then will be their subjects?…and who will benefit from their priesthood? Where will their subjects be? In heaven or on earth?

Who are those Jesus spoke about in John 5:28-29?

”Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice, and will come forth; those who did the good to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil to a resurrection of judgment.” (NASB)

Where are these dead ones whom Jesus will raise? They are in their tombs, still “sleeping” (like Lazarus was) until Jesus awakens them and restores their lives.…some to life and others who will enter a period of judgment, perhaps having died without a knowledge of God and his Redeemer.

So the two resurrections are to two different destinies and involve two different groups of humans. Those “resurrected first” are mentioned by the apostle Paul in 1 Thess 4:13-17..

“But we do not want you to be uninformed, brethren, about those who are asleep, so that you will not grieve as do the rest who have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus. For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord.” (NASB)

So again we see the dead referred to as “sleeping”. Notice that Paul says….”we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.”
So those “dead in Christ” will experience this “first resurrection”.…and those alive at his return will not precede those who are still in their graves. All are resurrected within this timeframe….because there are no immortal souls. “Sheol” or “hades” is the place where the dead “sleep”. (Eccl 9:5, 10)

Who are these “first” ones? They are the “elect” or “chosen ones” who have what Paul referred to as “the heavenly calling”. (Heb 3:1)

But if we understand why God put humans on earth in the first place, we will understand that those mentioned by Jesus in John 5:28-29 are those who will be ruled by the ones taken to heaven….those who have to be “born again” in order to reside in the spiritual realm….a realm where humans cannot go. They are “the bride” seen in Rev 21: 2-4, bringing the rulership of the Kingdom to earth so that the Kingdom “comes” to redeemed mankind, and God’s will is then “done on earth as it is in heaven”…..the whole meaning of the Lord’s Prayer.

Again, you are speaking against Jesus words -

Matt 11:13 For all the Prophets and the Law prophesied until John,
Matt 11:14 and if you are willing to accept it, he is Elijah who is to come.
Matt 11:15 He who has ears to hear, let him hear.

My ears are okay.

And I am willing to accept His words.

With God everything is possible.

Then you are believing in something the Bible does not teach…..if you think John B was actually Elijah, then Jesus lied about death. No one went to heaven before Jesus because Christ’s death is what opened the way for his chosen ones to follow, but not until his return.

John B died before Jesus opened the way to heaven, so unlike Lazarus, John was not restored to life by his Messiah. He is not part of the heavenly resurrection but will no doubt be used by God on earth as the other prophets of old will have a significant role in the education of the resurrected ones whose lives will be restored on earth. That is the only resurrection they were promised and expected.

Most people have no idea how deeply the doctrine of an “immortal soul” has altered their understanding of the Scriptures. There never was an immortal soul….that is the perpetuation of the devil’s first lie….”you surely will not die”….and people still believe it because we have no ‘program’ for death….it is as foreign to us now as it has always been. Thousands of years of human death and yet we still fight to live…..why? If death takes us to a better place, why do we fight to retain our lives here, despite the difficulties we face? Only the big picture answers all those difficult questions, but it involves replacing the devil’s lies with God’s truth.

 

[ProDeo]

We have a lot of common ground Aunty, but we reached a breaking point, denial of Scripture twice. It makes no sense to continue our talks until we reach agreement over these 2 denials.

That you are speaking against Christ words -

Matt 25:46 And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.

Dan 12:2 And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

Does not fit with Annihilation.

On this you said - Eternal death is eternal punishment…..because it never ends

You are adding to Scripture, the word death, it isn't there, not in Jesus words, neither in Daniel words.

Again, you are speaking against Jesus words -

Matt 11:13 For all the Prophets and the Law prophesied until John,
Matt 11:14 and if you are willing to accept it, he is Elijah who is to come.
Matt 11:15 He who has ears to hear, let him hear.

And on this you said - Then you are believing in something the Bible does not teach…..if you think John B was actually Elijah, then Jesus lied about death.

It's there right before your nose, said by Jesus Himself.

And there is more special about John B, he as first one realized who Jesus was, long before the twelve.

John 1:29 The next day he [John B] saw Jesus coming toward him, and said, “Behold, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!

Praise God.