Who or What is Babylon the Great? How do God’s people come to be in her?
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Rockerduck
Well-Known Member
Rockerduck
Well-Known Member
If you can't describe something, it does not exist.
Free-will doctrine-what does it? It magnifies man into God. It declares God's purposes a nullity, since they cannot be carried out unless men are willing. It makes God's will a waiting servant to the will of man, and the whole covenant of grace dependent on human action. Denying election on the ground of injustice, it holds God to be a debtor to sinners.
Charles Spurgeon
Davy
Well-Known Member
The word Babylon is derived from the word 'babel' which means 'confusion'. So God is actually saying to come out of CONFUSION.
How do we do that? By staying in and keeping His Word as written.
How do we do that? By staying in and keeping His Word as written.
I agree, but “Babylon the great” is a mirror image of original Babylon....which is why it can also be translated as “the greater Babylon”. In what way does BtG mirror original Babylon? In her beliefs and practices.
When we look and see that the core of Babylon’s false teachings, all false religion mirrors the same themes......and they are found in the many forms of false worship practiced throughout the world…..to see that BtG is bigger than just Christendom or the RCC.
What beliefs do all false religions have in common?
1) A multiplicity of gods, in contrast to the one God of Israel (Deut 6:4)....the same God who was worshipped by the Patriarchs long before Israel became a nation. He is a singular entity and the true faith has only ever had one God.
Not content to worship the Father, through satan’s Influence, Christendom created a god with three separate personalities who operate as one entity......yet nowhere in the Bible do we find this god even mentioned, except perhaps in ambiguous verse…and only by inference.
Adam had no connection to a ‘three in one’ god.....neither did Noah or Abraham who received their instructions from this one God called YHWH (Yahweh). The God of Israel was never a multiple personality. He has no other name (Psalm 83:18 KJV) and his son was never said to be his equal....just the opposite...
”the Father is greater than I“...is what he stated.
How can the Father be greater than his other ‘self’ in an equal triad?
2) Belief in an afterlife somewhere other than the earth....either in heaven or in a scary place called “Hell”.
There is no conscious torment after death because the dead are not conscious.... (Eccl 9:5, 10) The words used are “hades”, which is translated from Hebrew (Sheol) as “the grave” which also states that “the dead know nothing”.....they cannot think, plan or participate in any activity. Dead means dead....but the devil does not want anyone to believe that......his first lie was “you surely will not die” and belief in an afterlife supports that lie.....there is no immortal soul that floats off to some other realm at death. This is not a Bible teaching.
3) Belief in an underworld where the devil torments the wicked forever in “fiery hell”…..
Due to mistranslation, other words in the Bible were translated as “hell” when they meant nothing like the word suggests to those in BtG. Those in non-Christian faiths also believe in hellfire….so where did they get that idea?
”Christendom“ also translates “Gehenna” as “hell” when it is no such thing. There is no place of “eternal conscious torment” because God is not a sadist….and the dead are not conscious.
The worst punishment a person could suffer under God’s law was death……there were no punishments that ever incurred torture. That isn’t who God is. (Jer 7:31)
This is so very true….the RCC was the first official “Christian” church of Rome to blend pagan Roman sun worship with a weakened form of Christianity, which by the fourth century was a shadow of its original self….but Jesus and his apostles foretold this. This apostasy produced the “weeds” of Jesus’ parable…it’s a disunited rabble who cannot agree on anything except the core teachings that they all hold in common. (Mentioned above)
The Reformation did one good thing…..it broke the power of the Roman church and gave the Bible back to the people….but in the process, it fractured Christianity into thousands of differing sects. Who is a master of confusion and deception?
Yet no Sabbath observance was mentioned before the law was given to Israel, and no gentile Christian was ever commanded to keep any part of the law that Jesus did not reiterate.
When the circumcision issue arose, the apostles were forced to take it upon themselves to resolve this divisive issue…..were gentiles required to observe the Law of Moses….? The answer came by letter…
Acts 15:25-28…ESV
”It has seemed good to us, having come to one accord, to choose men and send them to you with our beloved Barnabas and Paul, men who have risked their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ. We have therefore sent Judas and Silas, who themselves will tell you the same things by word of mouth. For it has seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us to lay on you no greater burden than these requirements: that you abstain from what has been sacrificed to idols, and from blood, and from what has been strangled, and from sexual immorality. If you keep yourselves from these, you will do well. Farewell.”
Not a single mention of the Sabbath as a requirement for Christians….
She never said any such thing about Jesus.
What a hateful persona you seem to possess…. You love that eternal torment idea.
That is an interesting question….was free will ever truly “free”?
When God told Adam that the TKGE was something he chose as his own property, was it because he wanted a tree on earth to eat of the fruit himself? Literally NO! But figuratively that tree represented God’s sovereign right to set the limits of the freedom he gave to human children. To partake of that fruit when in full knowledge of the death penalty it carried, was suicidal….a ‘no-brainer’.
Why would God give them freedom of choice to live or die? He did not create any form of natural death for the humans…..as long as they obeyed his commands, no evil would befall them. No evil meant no sin…no sin meant no death. (Rom 5:12) It was a trust issue….did they trust their Creator to deliver on his promises? If they respected his property and his sovereignty, what would the outcome be? No evil would even enter their consciousness…..if it was not in their consciousness, it would never materialize into evil actions….imagine a life with no evil ! Can we? The “tree of life” would have guaranteed that no death would come to them. That was the life God planned for us….everlasting life in peace and security, in paradise conditions forever, with not an evil thing in sight. That is what we lost. That is what Christ came to give back to us.
So the two trees represented two choices, with nothing but their own thoughts to lead them one way or another…..left to themselves, they had no reason to disobey. This is where the devil comes in….
Satan was there in the garden ‘on duty‘ as a “covering cherub”.…(Ezek 28:13-17)….a guardian….in a position of responsibility and trust. But seeing the humans as lower creatures whose intelligence he could manipulate to give him worship, he began plotting a way to separate them from Jehovah….to gain their worship for himself. (James 1:14-15) In telling the woman she would be “like God”…he was really talking about himself.
He lied to the woman about the penalty and implied that God was withholding something that would benefit them…she was “thoroughly deceived” (1 Tim 2:14) and saw that the fruit was appealing to the eyes, so she took a bite and she did not immediately die…..perhaps assuming that the devil had told the truth, she offered some to her husband. We can only imagine his response…..he was “not deceived”, but now this beautiful gift from his God had signed her own death warrant. What would he do? His loyalties were now divided as the devil had planned, and he had to make a life or death choice for himself as well.
What would have happened if he had refused her offer? This is where free will comes in….he had the freedom to make a very bad choice and God did not prevent him from throwing the entire human race under the bus. Why? Did Jehovah not know what this would mean for his creation in so many awful ways?
God too had choices….would he exterminate the rebels and start again?….or would he use the rebellion to teach us all the value of obedience to him, allowing the full impact of the knowledge of evil to be experienced first hand…..and in turn to eliminate the possibility of free will being abused ever again? In his wisdom, he chose the latter, because the issues raised by satan in Eden needed addressing, otherwise there was nothing to stop another satan from again taking up the challenge. Jehovah had been slandered and took the opportunity to clear his name and defend his rightful Sovereignty.
By giving us all the opportunity to make our choice to remain faithful to our Creator, with all the respect due to him as our Sovereign, we show God whose side we are determined to stick to, despite what the devil might lyingly say about us.
If we recall the words of Jesus in Matt 5:11-12…
”Happy are you when people reproach you and persecute you and lyingly say every sort of wicked thing against you for my sake. 12 Rejoice and be overjoyed, since your reward is great in the heavens, for in that way they persecuted the prophets prior to you.”
Under satanic influence, the Pharisees made Jesus look like a fake, who got his power from the devil….so the majority were fooled into believing them…..once again, in our day, the majority are turned aside by false stories and make judgments based on hearsay. It’s an old trick that still works for the devil…..paint the real Christians as cultists and deviates….whilst the majority sit back smugly confident in their own disunity and failure to live up to the teachings of the Christ, because the majority accept that as genuine worship.
The church system is being exposed for what it is…..and it is dying. People are opting for the “feel good” mega churches, where their emotions can be manipulated but their knowledge is sadly lacking. Easy prey.
This is our modern day reality. We are free to choose what our heart desires. God will not interfere with our choices because they are ours to make of our own free will.
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Rockerduck
Well-Known Member
When most people use "free will" they mean freedom of choice. Thy (God's) will be done on earth as it is in Heaven. That's the Lord's prayer. In our Christian walk, we have choices to make. Jesus said He does the will of His Father. Every one of us revolve around the will of God. God has sovereign control over our salvation because He wills it. We can't freely will anything, but we can make a choice, like Adam and Eve, to obey or disobey.
How many times have you heard "if God wills". That the correct meaning. See you next week Joe, and Fred says God willing.
Can you show me any Scripture that says so?
You say “godness”… but the Scriptures say “godliness”….
1 Tim 3:16…NASB…
”By common confession, great is the mystery of godliness: G2150
He who was revealed in the flesh,
Was vindicated in the Spirit,
Seen by angels,
Proclaimed among the nations,
Believed on in the world,
Taken up in glory.”
This is Jesus Christ….he was the embodiment of “godliness“…..”eusebeia”…and it means….
- “reverence, respect
- piety towards God” (Strongs)
How does God show “piety towards” his equal self?
The Bible is silent on the deity of both Christ and the holy spirit……there is one deity and one alone….Yahweh, (Deut 6:4)…the God and Father of Jesus Christ. (John 20:17)
He was “the image of the invisible God” which means he was a reflection of all that his Father was…an image is not the real thing, just as your own image in a mirror is not you.
Nowhere in the Bible does Jesus ask for “worship”. He accepted “obeisance” which is the meaning of the word “proskyneo” in Greek. It can be rendered “worship” only when addressed to God, but never to a human….Jesus was a human.
Original language word studies reveal so much interference with biased translations leading towards promoting the trinity. Jesus worshiped his God….who remained his God even in heaven. (Rev 3:12)
Yes honor…not worship. Surely you know the difference?
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How many “gods” did Israel have? (From the Jewish Tanakh)
“The Lord” is “יְהֹוָ֥ה” YHWH….Yahweh.
Israel did not know the God of Christendom. He is a later invention.
Who would want Christians to break God’s first Commandment, do you think?
How is putting three gods in the place of the Father not a clear breach of Exodus 20:3?
I have read Isaiah 44 in the Tanakh and was looking carefully to find “two gods called Yahweh” in those verses. There is nothing that even suggests this. What trinitarians see in Scripture amazes me…..
When a Jew was asked “What does YHWH’s compound unity, or echad, mean for Jews?” (Quora)
His answer was rather predictable….
He said….
“COMPOUND unity? what on earth is that supposed to mean?
Echad means one. Like, you know, 1. Like, ONE. Single. Individual. Unique. One.
That kind of ‘one’.
There is nothing there to ‘compound’. The unity of God is something which both Judaism and Islam hold as absolute truth: God is uniquely, singularly ONE. A single ‘whole’.
We do understand that Christianity has diluted the one-ness by attributing personae to God, expressed as three non-individual yet distinct ‘persons’, while still claiming this composite threesome remains one. We view that as wrong.
It is considered a somewhat minor wrong for a pagan or idolator with multiple gods, to become a Christian and believe in a tri-une deity. The teaching is that ‘God is one in Three’, which is of course, incorrect from the point of view of Judaism and of Islam, but it is a monotheistic claim, nonetheless.”
So if Jews reject the “compound” meaning of “echad”, then what are Christians doing by redefining a Jewish word to support their false doctrine of a god that the Jews never knew?
Jesus was Jewish and taught from the Hebrew Scriptures….if he never mentioned a trinity, why should we?
There is not a single direct statement in all of Scripture that says so. The Father alone is called “ho theos”…“God” with a capital “G”. You have three Gods, with a capital “G”.
I do, because I came out of Christendom over 50 years ago, refusing to worship a Catholic god who is a blasphemous concoction of misinterpreted verses.
It isn’t me who is hung up on the trinity…..it doesn’t exist except in the minds of those whom the devil can convince of its reality….and since the majority accept it, that explains why “few” will be found on the road to life when the judgment comes. (Matt 7:13-14; 21-23) The majority isn’t always right….
Dear Rockerduck,
Your understanding of what scripture teaches about "free will" and making choices is confusing to me. At first your understanding seemed to be scripturally correct but then you made this statement:
You said:
We can't freely will anything, but we can make a choice, like Adam and Eve, to obey or disobey.
The short definition of free will is the ability to make choices free from divine intervention.
I don't understand how you can say that mankind does not have a free will, but then turn around and say that that mankind can make free choices. That statement is self-contradictory.
Can you explain your understanding in more detail, especially in light of the verses below?
Rom 9:18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth. 19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? 20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
Phil 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.
Prov 16:1 The preparations of the heart in man, and the answer of the tongue, is from the LORD.
Prov 20:24 Man's goings are of the LORD; how can a man then understand his own way?
Isa 26:12 O Jehovah, thou appointest peace to us, for, all our works also thou hast wrought for us.
Jer 10:23 I know, Jehovah, that the way of man is not his own; it is not in a man that walketh to direct his steps.
Prov 21:1 The king's heart is in the hand of the LORD, as the rivers of water: he turneth it whithersoever he will.
Scripture says that when a person makes a choice, the choice that they made was caused by God. God accomplishes His "will" by spiritually controlling the heart & mind of the person so as to make the person's "will" match to His "will". As a result, the person will make the choice that God wanted them to make. This certainly applied to Adam and Eve when they chose to sin.
Here is what Christ said about His own "will":
John 5:19 Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself (no free will), but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.
Even with Christ, God's "will" rules supreme. The choices that Christ made were caused by God - and in the verse above, Christ states so. And since it was God's "will" for Christ to be a sinless and a perfect representation of Himself, He was. God accomplished this by making Christ's "will" conform to His "will".
As for who Mystery Babylon the Great city represents, it represents man's marred and carnal spirit which elevates man (in their own mind) to be like God - just as your quote from Charles Spurgeon stated.
And as @Davy said in his post, the root of Babylon is "babel" and it means confusion. For this reason, the tower of babel is a symbol for Satan's apostate church which has a confusion of languages within it. Because the apostate church's language is confused, there is very little unity of teaching in it. This has caused the apostate church to be splintered into nearly 2,000 different denominations and sects - all of whom falsely claim to be "Christian".
However, there is one common teaching within the apostate church and that is man's supposed free will ability to make choices. This belief is what causes a "babe" to mix their own works with faith. When a believer commits this sin, they will fall from grace and spiritually die (loss of salvation). It is by this sin (the sin that leads to death) that Satan kills the saints and builds his apostate church.
Paul calls an apostate believer a "man of sin" in 2Thes chapter 2 and John shows him to be the Seven Headed Beast with 10 heads and 10 crowns in Revelation chapter 13. The crowns on the horns represent Satan's spiritual rulership over the person via the second beast (the spirit of anti-Christ).
The term "Mystery Babylon the Great city" is also synonymous with other terms such as woman, harlot, great harlot, earthly Jerusalem, Sodom, Damascus, Egypt, natural/old moon and the natural/old earth.
When Christ is ready to convert a fallen away Elect "babe", Christ will remove and destroy Mystery Babylon the Great city/Great Harlot from within the person. This judgment is described in Revelation chapter 18 and in the story of Lot by the destruction of Sodom. This judgment is also described in Mat 24:41:
Mat 24:41 Two women (one apostate believer with two spirits) shall be grinding at the mill (represents the believer's "works"); the one shall be taken (the Great Harlot/man's marred and carnal spirit), and the other left (the Holy Spirit).
Joe
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Rockerduck
Well-Known Member
Jesus is God and that is His will. Man does not do anything of his own will. Man makes choices. God's will is Sovereign over man. Proverbs 16:9 - A man's heart plans his way, But the Lord directs his steps.
Proverbs 19:21 - You can make many plans, but the Lord's purpose will prevail.
Proverbs 20:24 -The Lord directs our steps, so why try to understand everything along the way.
Jeremiah 10:23 - O LORD, I know the way of man in not in himself, it is not in man who walks to direct his own steps.
Dear Rockerduck,
You really didn't answer my question. I'll restate my question: Why do you believe that man's choices don't have to be in accordance with God's "will"?
If the "will" of a person changes, it will be reflected in the choices that they make. The two are inseparable.
Here is an example: If it is God's "will" for a certain person to reject Christ, then when the person is presented the Gospel, they will make the choice to reject it. The person did not make a free will choice to accept or reject Christ - God made that choice for them beforehand.
These verses apply:
John 12:40 He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.
Prov 16:1 The preparations of the heart in man, and the answer of the tongue, is from the LORD.
The "answer of the tongue" is the verbalized choice that the person made. That choice came from the Lord after He prepared their heart to make that choice. The person's "will" was not free and neither was their choice.
Consider this verse below:
John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: 13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
When a person accepts Christ, it happens only because Christ has prepared their heart (source of their "will") to make the choice of accepting Him as their Lord.
To prepare a person's heart, Christ will give a person the Early Rain of the Spirit - just as Christ did with Paul on the Damascus Road. Paul hated Christ at that time and had no intention of making a choice to accept Christ as his Lord. But all that changed for Paul after Christ gave Paul the Early Rain of the Spirit.
1Cor 12:3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Spirit.
Paul did not ask Christ for the small measure of the Spirit nor did Christ ask Paul for permission to give it to Him. But since it was God's "will" for Paul to become a "babe" in Christ, Christ gave Paul the Spirit. After the Spirit prepared Paul's heart, Paul's "will" was immediately changed so that Paul would make the choice to accept Christ as his "Lord".
Acts 9:3 And as he journeyed, he came near Damascus: and suddenly, there shined round about him a light from heaven: 4 And he fell to the earth, and heard a voice saying unto him, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me? 5 And he said, Who art thou, Lord? And the Lord said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest: it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks. 6 And he trembling and astonished said, Lord, what wilt thou have me to do?
It is in this same way that any person will become a "babe" in Christ.
1Tim 1:16 Howbeit for this cause, I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might shew forth all longsuffering, for a pattern to them which should hereafter believe on him to life everlasting.
Christ acts first and prepares the person's heart. The person's "will" is then changed so that the choice they make matches to God's "will".
Choices come from a person's "will" (heart) to make those choices. If their "will" is changed, so will the choices that they make.
What I presented above is just one of the ways that God causes a person to make certain choices. However, God is not limited in the ways that He works with mankind. For example, if God wants a person to travel a certain route to go to Walmart, He may cause their "will" to choose the route He wants them to take or He may just block the route the person made plans to travel whereby causing them to choose to go a different route - a route that God chose for them to take in the first place. God is that powerful. If you think about it, it has to be that way, even down to the smallest details of life.
Joe
Rockerduck
Well-Known Member
Prov 16:1 The preparations of the heart in man, and the answer of the tongue, is from the LORD.
>You said, The "answer of the tongue" is the verbalized choice that the person made. That choice came from the Lord after He prepared their heart to make that choice. The person's "will" was not free and neither was their choice.
Wrong. Proverbs 16:1 is stating the same of man's heart. Proverbs 16:9 -That a man's heart plans his way. The tongue is God speaking though you. God will put in your mouth what He wants you to say. I've witness that more times than I can remember.
>
You said "When a person accepts Christ, it happens only because Christ has prepared their heart (source of their "will") to make the choice of accepting Him as their Lord."
It is God who determines that you will be saved, and you don't have a choice. God knows you better than yourself because He created you. He knows full well what your reaction will be. God has sovereign control over all aspects of yours and my salvation, no will on the part of man involved. You cannot do anything on the level of God.
>You said,
"Here is an example: If it is God's "will" for a certain person to reject Christ, then when the person is presented the Gospel, they will make the choice to reject it. The person did not make a free will choice to accept or reject Christ - God made that choice for them beforehand."
When you say "if" that's a hypothetical statement. No person rejects God's calling or rather, invitation. Do you know someone who did?
You said, "Paul did not ask Christ for the small measure of the Spirit nor did Christ ask Paul for permission to give it to Him. But since it was God's "will" for Paul to become a "babe" in Christ, Christ gave Paul the Spirit. After the Spirit prepared Paul's heart, Paul's "will" was immediately changed so that Paul would make the choice to accept Christ as his "Lord".
Christ gave Paul no choice, he was chosen. When you receive the Holy Spirit, you heart is changed, it is God's will only.
You said," It is in this same way that any person will become a "babe" in Christ."
Do you really believe that everyone has a road to Damascus experience? Everyone's salvation experience is different. Yes, at first you are a child of God, before you become a mature child of God.
Have a very blessed day.
Dear Rockerduck,
You said:
Wrong. Proverbs 16:1 is stating the same of man's heart. Proverbs 16:9 -That a man's heart plans his way. The tongue is God speaking though you. God will put in your mouth what He wants you to say. I've witness that more times than I can remember.
You say I am wrong but your words in the above statement say I am right. You said that it is the God speaking through a person, then it is God who is the one making the choice and not the person. I am bewildered that you cannot understand this simple logic.
You said:
It is God who determines that you will be saved, and you don't have a choice (I completely agree). God knows you better than yourself because He created you. He knows full well what your reaction will be. God has sovereign control over all aspects of yours and my salvation, no will on the part of man involved. You cannot do anything on the level of God.
God knows full well what a person's reaction will be because He works in their heart to make the answer of a person's tongue what He wants it to be.
Mankind was created spiritually marred. The flaw in man's spirit is that it is weak. Because it is weak, the flesh caused man's spirit to become carnal and the carnal spirit caused man's mind to become carnal as well. In this condition, a person CANNOT make a choice to accept Christ until Christ changes the person's heart. To make that change, Christ will come and freely give them the Holy Spirit. After the person has the Spirit, the only choice they will make is to accept Christ as their Lord.
1Cor 12:3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Spirit.
Since Christ has said that He will save all mankind, He will eventually come to all mankind and freely give each person the free gift of salvation - but only at a time of the Father's choosing.
1Tim 2:3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior; 4 who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; 6 who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.
In this age, Christ is only saving the Elect, those who were chosen from the foundation of the world for this honor. For the balance of mankind (nearly everyone), they will receive the free gift of salvation while they are being judged in the final age. Before anyone perishes, Christ will have mercy upon them and freely give them both the Early and Latter Rains of the Spirit. This will give them faith in Christ and their new birth as a child of God. Christ will then gather the newly born child of God to heaven, leaving the child of the devil (who they used to be) in the Lake of Fire (His judgment) until he is destroyed (satisfies justice).
This verse applies:
Mat 23:23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law: justice, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.
This is what God's Word teaches and at the end of the final age, it will be testified to be true.
You said:
When you say "if" that's a hypothetical statement. No person rejects God's calling or rather, invitation. Do you know someone who did?
NO and I have never said otherwise.
When I say "if", I am meaning if Christ comes to them in this age before they die. Christ will not come to most of mankind in this age but He will come to "many".
Mat 22:14 For many are called, but few are chosen.
Those "many" will be given the Early Rain of the Spirit so as to call them to be a saint. This is when they will first make a confession of faith and enter the church. From that group of "many" who are called, a few of them have been chosen. They are the Elect. This select group will be given the Latter Rain of the Spirit and be converted. Those who are called to be saints but who are not chosen, they will not be given the Latter Rain of the Spirit. They will die in an unconverted and apostate condition and will be resurrected to judgment by the Law. They will later receive their "portion" (their salvation) with the unbelievers at the end of the final age (Luke 12:46).
You said:
Christ gave Paul no choice, he was chosen. When you receive the Holy Spirit, you heart is changed, it is God's will only.
That is what I have been saying. After Christ gives anyone the Spirit, their heart will be changed and they will accept Christ as their Lord. It happens 100% of the time. That is why the salvation of mankind is a 100% certainty and why mankind has no works of their own to contribute to their salvation. When Christ is ready to save a person, they will be saved and He will do all the works.
You said:
Do you really believe that everyone has a road to Damascus experience? Everyone's salvation experience is different. Yes, at first you are a child of God, before you become a mature child of God.
Paul's experience was a physical "type" which taught how Christ spiritually saves each of His Elect. All the Elect will spiritually experience what Paul did.
Paul's calling on the Damascus Road represents his receiving the Early Rain of the Spirit and his making a confession of faith. Paul's blindness represented his spiritual blindness (God's Word remains concealed). Paul was then led by the hand (blind leading the blind) into Damascus (earthly Jerusalem) where Paul would be spiritually killed. During that time in Damascus, Paul could not eat the true bread of Christ or drink the New Wine. The "three days" represented the spiritual process that made Paul apostate (a man of sin, Mat 12:43-45). After the three days were fulfilled (Mat 24:14), Paul was ready for the end to come (be converted). Ananias (a type for Christ) then came to Paul a second time and poured out the Latter Rain of the Spirit. This is when Paul's spiritual blindness was healed and when Paul was born again and converted. Only then could Paul eat "meat" and walk by the Spirit.
1Tim 1:16 Howbeit for this cause, I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might shew forth all longsuffering, for a PATTERN (TYPE) to them which should hereafter believe on him to life everlasting.
This pathway that Christ established through Paul's conversion is the same pathway that all the Elect will travel. None of the Elect can deviate from it because no person has a free will ability to do so.
Also, the pathway to salvation that Paul's conversion experience established is taught over and over again in Christ's New Covenant teachings. Once a person is converted, their spiritual blindness will be healed and they will be able to "see" those teachings. That is what the scales falling from Paul's eyes represented.
Joe
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Yes she did!
I'm trying to pull you from the everlasting Fire that Jesus warned you!
Revelation 21:8 All liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone,
quietthinker
Well-Known Member
A liar consists of one who misrepresents God; one who attributes to God that which the devil is responsible for.
Actually a liar is one who rejects the Christian Bible that clearly teaches Jesus is God and Hell Fire is EVERLASTING! Jesus said so.
Then. Prove. It.
Oh, I think you’d push.
“‘Death was thrown into the Lake of Fire.” (Revelation 20:13,14)
How do you burn death?
The Lake of Fire is not literal!
Just another of Christendom’s misunderstandings & lies.
Already did. Pay attention.
I don't want you to burn in Hell!!!
Rev 20 They will be tormented day and night FOREVER!
Those in the Lake of Fire will not agree with you.
Should we believe you or the Bible? You lose.
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