Since you reject the Christian Bible my Bible quotes are totally irrelevant to you. Why do you profess to be Christian? Why are you in a Christian forum?
Who or What is Babylon the Great? How do God’s people come to be in her?
- Thread starter Aunty Jane
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Can we have some Scriptural backup for this assumption?
I believe that Jesus was 100% human.....but without sin. He needed to be the exact equivalent of Adam in order to provide the price or redemption....a sinless life for a sinless life.
His life was atonement for what Adam did to us.....atonement is “at-one-meant”...one for one....
He never became “like fallen man”.....”fallen” means “sinful”. Jesus had no sin, so he was a perfect human like Adam was at his creation, before the fall.
He existed as God’s “firstborn” in heaven before any other creation came into being. (Col 1:15)
He was “the beginning of God’s creation” (Rev 3:14)
Did he say that?
Rom 10:9...
“For if you publicly declare with your mouth that Jesus is Lord, and exercise faith in your heart that God raised him up from the dead, you will be saved.”
Who raised Jesus from the dead?
Jesus is “Lord” but “God raised him from the dead”. God didn’t die...as an immortal he cannot die...but Jesus died and was resurrected. If Jesus did not die, we are not saved.
Yes, as “the image of the invisible God”, (Col 1:15) he certainly revealed his Father’s character and personality. It’s hard to be the image of an invisible person.
But not one word from his mouth declared himself to be “God”. In fact John declared that “no man has ever seen God” (John 1:18).....thousands of people saw Jesus.
Yet not a single Scripture says so. He was born of a human woman so as to fulfill prophesy....and to provide a ransom for the human race. God sent his son, not himself. The Creator of all things did not need to become a mere human to save his children.....all he needed to provide was an equivalent life to the one that Adam took away.
The Bible does not agree with you.
Acts 10:40...
“God raised this one up on the third day and allowed him to become manifest”.
Heb 13:20....
“Now may the God of peace, who brought up from the dead the great shepherd of the sheep, our Lord Jesus, with the blood of an everlasting covenant”.
Rom 8:11...
“If, now, the spirit of him who raised up Jesus from the dead dwells in you, the one who raised up Christ Jesus from the dead will also make your mortal bodies alive through his spirit that resides in you.”
Nowhere does the Bible say that Jesus raised himself from the dead......
Sorry, but your own study of the Bible is sadly lacking here....EGW has let you down.
When did the SDA’s sell out to the trinity?
Yes...who can doubt that God was “with” Jesus as his chosen representative and mediator. He was also “with” his people through this first mediator, Moses.
If Jesus was to be called Immanuel, then why was he named Jesus?
quietthinker
Well-Known Member
You have not absorbed the most basic of my statements in past posts...... evident in your statement above. How then will absorb where value lays in the scriptures?
Reminder: Aunty said CYB and Jesus are Satanic!
Again you have not addressed a single thing I said….how is this a response?
All you have are excuses, no scriptural explanations……but you blame the emptiness of your posts on others for not understanding you….I am not the only one.
If you are going to promote the teachings of EGW, then by all means defend them…..the value of the Scriptures is evident in the writing, but completely lost in interpretation.
We have to find the diamond in the pile of broken glass.…and only God can identify it. (John 6:44, 65)
Ronald Nolette
Well-Known Member
Well as Jesus is not God the Father, but God the son as is even declared as far back as Psalm 2, it is an easy thing to show it is not redundant.
There is perfect harmony in the tri-unity of God and no competition like in the pagan triads for first place. Each is equally divine in nature but each is not equal in position or authority. That does not lessen their "godness".
This is the problem…..in Exodus 20:3 Jehovah declares that there should be no other gods but him…..he will not tolerate any other god in his place.
John 1:1 says in Greek…
”In the beginning was the Word (ho logos) and the Word was with God (ho theos) and the Word was divine.(theos)”.
If you worship “God the Father”…and “God the Son”….and “God the Holy Spirit”… count them….that is three “gods” with a capital “G”. So you now have three gods in the Father’s place. But “God the Son” and “God the Holy Spirit” do not exist in Scripture……only the Father has the title “God” with a capital “G”. All other “gods” or god-like ones (theos) do not have the definite article before them, meaning that they possess divine authority or are divinely created. Please read John 10:31-36, and see that God himself called human judges in Israel “gods” (theos). Read in Greek you can see clearly the distinction between “theos” and “ho theos”.…but only if you take off the trinitarian lenses.
The thing to remember is that triads only existed in paganism…..the one God of the Jews who had a unique name, YHWH (“Jehovah” in English. Psalm 83:18 KJV) was a singular entity. (Deut 6:4)
The trinity did not even rate a mention in the Bible, but was woven into ambiguous verses by those who in later centuries, wanted to introduce a different god…one that Jesus and his Jewish nation had never even thought of.
Why would it take hundreds of years to introduce something that should have been an established and irrefutable truth? There is so much Scripture that argues against it, and not one single clear statement from either God or his son that they are equally God with the Holy Spirit.
Have you swallowed an ancient lie that God is now revealing, so that more people will see through Christendom’s sham religious system…..fractured into so many different denominations that it’s a joke to suggest that they are all what they call themselves…..read 1 Cor 1:10 and see how God sees them.
God’s spirit unites his people in love…it does not hatefully divine them.
quietthinker
Well-Known Member
God is described in anthropomorphic terms because that's the only way we can get reference.
God is neither male or female. God is a unity described in ways so we can somehow get our head around but falling far short of the eternal reality, so we have 'Father, Son and Spirit. Can we even describe what 'Spirit' constitutes? We don't even suitably know what electricity is, so let's get off the high horse.
Our attempts to pull these apart and attribute by our feeble understanding whatever, is only a revelation of our ignorance.
What we do know is what has been revealed and Jesus is the most definitive revelation we have. Relegate him to and as a 'pleasant' sideshow and we have fallen into Satan's trap.....and stay ignorant of the knowledge of God's character, attributing all sorts of erroneous characteristics to him as have done the Pagans.
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This deserves its own post….let’s see if what you say is true…..
Psalm 2:1-12….ESV.
“Why do the nations rage and the peoples plot in vain? The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers take counsel together, against the LORD (YHWH) and against his Anointed, saying, “Let us burst their bonds apart and cast away their cords from us.”
He who sits in the heavens laughs; the LORD (YHWH) holds them in derision. “As for me, I have set my King on Zion, my holy hill.” I will tell of the decree: The LORD (YHWH) said to me, “You are my Son; today I have begotten you. Then he will speak to them in his wrath, and terrify them in his fury, saying, Ask of me, and I will make the nations your heritage, and the ends of the earth your possession. You shall break them with a rod of iron and dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel.”
Now therefore, O kings, be wise; be warned, O rulers of the earth. Serve the LORD (YHWH) with fear, and rejoice with trembling.
Kiss the Son, lest he be angry, and you perish in the way, for his wrath is quickly kindled. Blessed are all who take refuge in him.”
If you read this in the Jewish Tanakh you will see the distinct difference between God YHWH and his son.…and no mention is made (as usual) of the third, supposedly equal, party.
There is no “God the Son” in any passage of Scripture.…just as there is no “God the Holy Spirit”…these are terms invented by trinitarians.
You can keep supplying these verses and I will continue to expose the false interpretation.
I will have to agree with Aunty Jane as far the fulfilment of the second Psalm being fulfilled by God the Father.
They adress this here
Acts 13:33 God hath fulfilled the same unto us their children, in that he hath raised up Jesus again; as it is also written in the second psalm, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee. This is also shown in Heb 5:5 which shows this is not Christ's own doing but God His Father's doing)
Heb 5:5 So also Christ glorified not himself to be made an high priest; but he that said unto him, Thou art my Son, to day have I begotten thee.
Acts 13:33 is bearing witness of the very fulfilment of Psalm 2:7 by God the Father and Hebrews 5:5 adds to it showing Christ glorified not himself in the same fulfillment
They adress this here
Acts 13:33 God hath fulfilled the same unto us their children, in that he hath raised up Jesus again; as it is also written in the second psalm, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee. This is also shown in Heb 5:5 which shows this is not Christ's own doing but God His Father's doing)
Heb 5:5 So also Christ glorified not himself to be made an high priest; but he that said unto him, Thou art my Son, to day have I begotten thee.
Acts 13:33 is bearing witness of the very fulfilment of Psalm 2:7 by God the Father and Hebrews 5:5 adds to it showing Christ glorified not himself in the same fulfillment
No kidding….it is obvious that spirit beings are not like us in physical form, but they have a spirit form like God has…invisible unless they choose to become visible…..and when they materialize, they can apparently form whatever shape they desire. After the flood, the rebel angels were restrained from materializing because of the havoc they caused.
In Eden, the devil materialized as a serpent…angels materialized as men…..one spoke out of a burning bush, and another delivered messages 500 years apart, (Gabriel) appearing as a man to both Daniel and Mary.
Spirit beings do not require gender, which is only for reproduction, yet angels always appeared as men, never women. God is said to have “sons”, in heaven, but rarely said to have daughters. Even those chosen as “saints” are said to be “adopted sons”. The Father has “sons”……but Jesus has “brothers”.
Those who aspire to the heavenly resurrection, once given a spirit body will be genderless.…like the angels.
Exactly….he refers to things of the spirit by referencing earthly things and relationships. So if he says that Jesus is his son and Jesus agrees that his Father is also his God….upon what grounds does humanity have to disagree? How can we say we don’t understand the relationship of fathers to sons?
According to John, what is required is to “know the only true God and the one he sent”….(John 17:3)….what does it matter if we have no real understanding of the Holy Spirit other than what the Scriptures tell us?
All mention of God’s spirit is in terms we can understand….it is connected to displays of his unlimited power.
Miracles and such were performed under the power of God’s spirit…even Jesus was not born as a miracle worker…..he did not receive the gift of God’s spirit until his baptism at 30 years of age. Until then he was just Jesus the carpenters’ son….after his baptism, he was known as “the son of God”…..”the Christ” or “anointed one”. The apostles were given the gifts of God’s spirit so that they too could perforn miracles…
Where are the high horses? In your imagination it seems…
Of course….since you possess no understanding yourself, you assume that no one else has any either.….not true. Why would God put things in his word that were impossible for anyone to understand? Where is the logic in that? It is true that he is selective as to whom he reveals his truth….and that is his prerogative. (John 6:65)
What is this “pleasant side show” you speak of? Another figment of your imagination?
God’s character is revealed in his son…..he is “the image of the invisible God”, so what else does he have to reveal to “show us the Father”?……what “erroneous characteristics” have you attributed to him, whilst pointing fingers at others who have no idea what it is you are talking about a lot of the time….?
A better level of clarity would be appreciated instead of the constant put downs about not understanding what you say…..did you ever think it might be the way you speak to those you engage?
quietthinker
Well-Known Member
Did you ever think that the filter of your paradigm hamstrings your ability to understand? Had it ever occurred to you that the Jews had the same problem? They had spent centuries honing their theology and didn't like it when it was revealed as falling short. They continually shot the successive messengers....and when the Son appeared they murdered him and threw him out of the vineyard.
You appeal to logic not aware that it is your logic that pulls up short.
Chew on this with your logic and then tell me I'm not logical.......
1...A virgin conceives and bears a child,
2.. An old man and his barren wife have a son at ages 100 and 90 respectively (Abraham and Sarah)
3...The dead are brought back to life in both the old and new testaments.
4...A widow's oil and flour don't run out in a time of extreem famine,
5...God made the World and everything in it in seven days.
You want me to go on about logic?
Understand what? What the heck does that even mean? I find it impossible to get onto your wavelength most of the time. You seem to speak in riddles.
And what has that got to do with me? What is this “same problem” you mention? What about your theology?
And talk about “not liking it when it was revealed as falling short”…..isn’t that exactly what you are doing? You have no Scriptural answers to any questions put to you, yet I’m the one with the problem…..
I’m guessing you live alone and a long way from people in your church…..your responses tell me that you don’t have people close to you to bounce off…..or to pull you up when you say inappropriate things. You can be quite offensive, which naturally puts some people on the defensive. Why do you feel the need to disparage someone who disagrees with you, instead of just engaging in dialogue?
If EGW provides what you need…..go in peace and believe as you wish…..what does that have to do with me?
“A man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still”……I believe this is true for many.
I give up QT….outlining what God did, as recorded in his word, is hardly illogical. He has the power to manipulate his material creation…..what is illogical about that?…..so why would I want you to “go on“ with what you see in a very different way to me…..you are a difficult person to talk to.
quietthinker
Well-Known Member
You say you don't understand yet you engage in debate, countering what you don't understand as if you do understand. Isn't that the height of ego driven foolishness? If you don't understand, just ask whenever it occurs.
HOW your paradigm filters information is in my view a result of your 'programming' It is skewed just as the Jews was.And what has that got to do with me? What is this “same problem” you mention? What about your theology?
And talk about “not liking it when it was revealed as falling short”…..isn’t that exactly what you are doing? You have no Scriptural answers to any questions put to you, yet I’m the one with the problem…..
You proudly justify yourself because you feel quoting scripture gives you that edge. You charge me with not quoting scripture as if that is a deficit. Don't you see all the quoting of scripture that goes on on this site? How well does that go?
Satan quoted scripture to Jesus in the desert. How much of an edge did that give him? Violating context and intent gets zero brownie points.
Yes I do live alone and don't belong to an organised church. I pull no punches when it comes to being straight. I'm sorry if you find that offensive. Just give me a straight answer in reply without waffling, ie making lots of words that say nothing insightful.
I suppose your 'some people' reference refers to yourself. Why not just own it instead of putting it on someone else non descript?
I'm curious why the regular reference to EGW on my behalf as if make mention of her?
Your powers of observation re this matter are clouded by your assumptions re my affiliations.
....and why the cliche 'a man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still'? does it add extra weight to your logic? or is it just a throw away statement, again relegated to 'many'.
You speak of logic (which by the way is yours) as if it is the correct gauge by which to assess the logic of anything else. I gave you some examples from scripture that don't fit into anyones 'logic'.
My illustrations (points 1-5)were given to illustrate a logic that defies that of man. It is to highlight that your regular reference to what you consider logical is the product of your filter (paradigm) .....which, in the exchanges we have, I am in the ongoing process of questioning. I'm sorry if this makes you feel uncomfortable.....yet I will not apologise for shooting straight.
There is a logic however that scripture uses. It behooves us to discover it.....and HOW do we do that? Are you up to the challenge?.... and a challenge it is, or will you settle for the convenience and comfort of the familiar program?
Ronald Nolette
Well-Known Member
And once again you forget that the term Theos (God) describes an entity and also describes an essence or nature of an entity (godness)
So to call Jesus and the Holy spirit God as the bible does is not creating two more gods, but showing that all three have the exact same nature and essence- absolute divinity. Not like the pagan triads where they had 3 chief gods and all three had differing personalities and essences of divinity. That is why Jesus could say- If you have seen me you have seen teh Father, and I and my Father are one (not "in union" as the NWT mistranlsates it)
We Worship father and Son , but not the Holy Spirit for this is the command of Scripture. The Watchtower makes a big deal of trying to separate worship and obeisance but they are two words describing the same thing.
Even Jesus said that people must honor the same in the same way they honor th eFather!
Ronald Nolette
Well-Known Member
And now you are nit picking as to God the son and God the
Holy spirit.
And if you read in that same Tanakh you see in Isaih 44 that two people are speaking that are called Yahweh!
Also remember this:
Elohim is the plural of Elowah
Adonai is the plural of Adon
Echad is the "one" that also means a compound one.
So Deut. 6:4 is read:
Hear O Israel, Yahwh your Gods is a compound one yahweh!
The Father is called God, Jesus is called god and is called equal to the Father and the Holy Spirit is called God! Enjoy who God really is! Stop being so hung up on the made up word "Trinity"
I think your user name gives you away......you are entirely wrapped up in your own version of what you think “Christianity” should be.....a “Lone Ranger” because you have no filters that are imposed by anyone but yourself. If you do not have an active brotherhood, you cannot identify as a Christian because you don’t fit the description that Paul gives us in identifying what it meant to be a Christian back in the first century....
1 Cor 1:10-13...ESV...
“ I appeal to you, brothers, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree, and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be united in the same mind and the same judgment.”
Why the call for this kind of unity? Does this instruction allow for the existence of “Lone Rangers”?
Paul continues....
“What I mean is that each one of you says, “I follow Paul,” or “I follow Apollos,” or “I follow Cephas,” or “I follow Christ.” For it has been reported to me by Cloe's people that there is quarreling among you, my brothers. Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Or were you baptized in the name of Paul?”
What do we see in Christendom today? We see a rapidly declining church system that has become redundant in today’s world. It is basically good for nothing when it comes to exercising it’s “Christianity” in a real way...actually being Christians instead of just wearing a label and dutifully going to church once a week to listen to a man who gets paid to do God’s work. The church run charities are merely hand to mouth, which gives people only what they need today....there is no real hope for tomorrow.....
All the denominations are split up by following certain ones who professed to be prophets, just as they did in the first century, some even claiming to be apostles....
But what is even more disturbing is the number of “Lone Rangers” like yourself, who obviously have come to their truth by whatever means, but fail to actually convey it to anyone else. Those who do make an impact on others usually form their own “church” but it fails to go beyond the bounds of a local area. Sincerity is not an indicator of truth, or they would all be of one mind and spirit.
True Christianity is global, not local. Jesus’ final instruction to his disciples before he returned to his Father is recorded in Matt 28:18-20....
“And Jesus came and said to them, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, to the end of the age.”
What did he say that this entailed...?
“And this gospel of the kingdom will be proclaimed throughout the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.” (Matt 24:14)
This global work needed a global brotherhood to carry it out in the same manner as the disciples in the first century did......they took their message out to the people. (Matt 10:11-14; Acts 20:20) They did not wait in a building for people to wander in. Nor did they entice them with material rewards to become what are known as “rice Christians”. Those who show up for the physical food but who refuse the spiritual food.
The disciples were out among the people, wherever they were...at their homes, at the market place, publicly visible as the first Christians were, showing people how to get to know “the only true God and the one he sent” (John 17:3).....what an amazing hope for the future we have in Jesus Christ, if only we would stop and actually listen.
Since Scripture is what Jesus and the apostles used to teach others, why would I do less? Scripture is how we discern truth....it gives God the opportunity to open a closed heart, or to leave it closed and only open to its own thoughts and whims.quietthinker said:
God’s word is powerful. (Heb 4:12-13) But it isn’t unless God unleashes the power. (John 6:44; 65)
God permits us to quote Scripture no matter who we are.....but unless God opens the heart, they are just words in a book. Satan and his minions can quote Scripture till the cows come home, but only God can grant understanding. He doesn’t just give it to individuals......he gives it to a collective as he has demonstrated down through history. Even the Patriarchs of old taught their clan to serve the true God, Yahweh. Then when the time was right, he liberated Jacob’s descendants after centuries of slavery in Egypt to form a nation that he adopted as his own. Even though this nation let him down many times, he kept them in existence until his purpose in connection with them was finished. He produced his Messiah and they had him executed.
That to me says it all.....if you have no brotherhood, you become your own “church”.....is that the way God operates? Is that the reason why he sent others out to gain more disciples and bring them into a “congregation”?
Could be the reference in your signature....
It’s states the bleeding obvious mate....no matter what is said to you or what Scripture is quoted to reinforce a point....nothing will shift you. That is an old saying...and as true today as it ever was...it applies broadly.
Citing examples from Scripture where God performed miracles (unnatural occurrences in the experience of humans) how on earth does that qualify as illogical? The clearly stated reasons are also given in Scripture. God never does anything for no reason. His miracles had a purpose....nothing illogical about them.
Perhaps it is your own filters, unassailed by the close company of others, that demonstrates why we humans should never live isolated from others. We are designed to live in communities.....families and wider relationships with others, especially those of like mind to whom we naturally gravitate. Being part of a community allows us to widen out in our thinking and to learn how not to be selfish in our attitudes and conduct. When you have no one else in your life to sacrifice parts of yourself for.....what is the inevitable outcome? The “straight shooting” then becomes arrows with barbs, designed to inflict pain, rather than the gentle persuasion that Jesus employed to his listeners.
Your “straight shooting” doesn’t make me feel “uncomfortable”....so much as it illicits feelings of intense sadness because I feel sorry that life has placed you in the circumstances that have cut you off from others. I’m sure that there is a story attached to your isolation, but many others here also have sad stories where life has dealt them some savage blows. God helps us to deal with them in his strength, not our own.
Rockerduck
Well-Known Member
There is no such thing as free will, only God's will. You're talking about freedom of choice.
quietthinker
Well-Known Member
Setting up straw men AJ is a response to ignorance. I see you are the disher-out of identities...and non identities
you don't like/ agree with it?.....I think it is pertinent.
If it's bleeding obvious, why dish it out. Isn't it like telling a person to keep breathing? as if they didn't know.
Things do shift however, but not in ways expected. Surprisingly, I have learned to love and continue to learn. I have learned to be content.....even while most of the posts on this site bore and frustrate the jiminy cricket out of me. Yup, learned is the word.
One thing I will add is this quote by John Newton. 'There are two things I know, I am a great sinner and Christ is a great Saviour.'
I identify fully.
The rest of your post my dear, and I say it kindly, is just a ramble.
....and I must say, your signature 'What I post are my personal beliefs after many years of Bible study….I love a good Bible discussion. ;)
....reveals much.
Hobie
Well-Known Member
Babylon great sin is that she “made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication.” This cup of intoxication which she presents to the world represents the false doctrines that she has accepted and the abomination of worship of false gods with her idols. Babylon has united with the kings of the world to destroy the saints and corrupts her faith, and in turn she exerts a corrupting influence upon the world by teaching doctrines which are opposed to the plainest statements of Gods Word.
Rome banned and withheld the Bible from the people and required all men to accept her teachings in its place. It was the work of the Reformation to restore to men the Word of God; yet they failed as they taught their denominations to rest their faith upon their creed and the teachings of their church rather than on the Scriptures. We must go by the Bible and it clearly teaches which day the Creator made as the Sabbath for man and blessed it and sanctified it, and says to 'Remember' it in the Commandments.
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