Who or What is Babylon the Great? How do God’s people come to be in her?

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Aunty Jane

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“Babylon the great” is also translated as “the greater Babylon…..so, what is the Babylon connection?
What do those in “Babylon the great“ all have in common? And why is it God’s instruction for his “people” to “get out of her” before he brings her to ruin? (Rev 18:4-5) Why are his “people” in Babylon the great in the first place?

Original Babylon was built by the first rebel after the flood.…Noah’s grandson, Nimrod, son of Cush, he was the builder of the cities of Babel, Erech, Accad, and Calneh, all in the land of Shinar….said to be the cradle of civilization…and with good reason. (Gen 10:10)

It was likely under his direction that the building of the infamous Babel and its tower began. This conclusion is also in agreement with the traditional Jewish view.

Josephus wrote…..“[Nimrod] little by little transformed the state of affairs into a tyranny, holding that the only way to detach men from the fear of God was by making them continuously dependent upon his own power. He threatened to have his revenge on God if He wished to inundate the earth again; for he would build a tower higher than the water could reach and avenge the destruction of their forefathers. The people were eager to follow this advice of [Nimrod], deeming it slavery to submit to God; so they set out to build the tower . . . and it rose with a speed beyond all expectation.” (Jewish Antiquities, I, 114, 115 (iv, 2, 3))

So original Babylon is the birthplace of rebellion against God after he had cleansed the earth of wickedness the first time, by a flood…the tower had a purpose which was against God’s express command.

The evidence of Scripture points to the land of Shinar as the post-flood birthplace of all false religious concepts. Undoubtedly under the direction of Nimrod, who is described in the Bible as “a mighty hunter before(or in opposition to) Jehovah,” with the building of the city of Babel and its tower, likely a ziggurat to be used for false worship, an empire was begun. This building project was undertaken, not to bring honor to God, but for the self-glorification of the builders, who desired to make “a celebrated name” for themselves.

Also, it was in direct opposition to God’s stated purpose, which was for mankind to spread about in the earth. Jehovah frustrated the plans of these builders by confusing their language. No longer being able to understand one another, they gradually left off building the city and were scattered about in the earth as those who understood one another’s language, grouped together. (Gen 10:8-10; Gen 11:2-9)

However, Nimrod apparently remained at Babel and expanded his dominion, founding the first Babylonian Empire. (Gen 10:11-12)
“Babylon the great” is therefore a mirror image of original Babylon, only on a much larger scale….a global religious empire inspired by the devil came to be founded by all the various language groups who left the city to go to other places, taking their false religious ideas with them….and most of them also taking the legend of the flood with them as well.

The religious ideas found in all false religion, include the worship of multiple gods, some known by different names in different cultures, but are clearly the same false gods and goddesses…..Roman Catholicism managed to squeeze three gods into one head, thereby denying the practice of polytheism. There is also belief in life after death with an immortal part of humans leaving the body at death to go to either a hell of fiery torment….or to a heaven of bliss…..these are not opposing destinations for the dead in the Bible.

Mother goddess worship was also practiced and this is where the veneration of Mary originated….Mary came to have the mother goddess titles applied to her…”Mother of God”, “Queen of Heaven” and “Our Lady”……but most Catholic people have no idea why Mary features so strongly in their beliefs, when she hardly features at all in the Bible. Her role, though an important one was not given prominence because the son of God had to enter the world from a human mother….if it wasn’t Mary, it would have been someone equally favored by God to raise his son. Her circumstances at the time were suitable for God’s purpose. No doubt a wonderful mother, but not given any real prominence, nor did she remain a virgin.

If the call to “get out of Babylon the great” is obeyed, then those who have been shackled to Christendom’s false beliefs, perhaps all their lives, will be the ones who will see the truth about her origins and obey God’s command. They were born in Babylon and taught her beliefs, but God calls his “people“ out of that rabble….they see Babylon the great for what she is….a religious prostitute, in bed with the kings of the earth, currying their favor. (James 4:4)

If God’s command is not obeyed, then Babylon the great will go down, but she will take all those who cling to her, down into death with her. Like a sinking ship, she will drag any who are too close, down into the depths of oblivion….never to be seen again. (Rev 18:21-24)
 
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face2face

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Mother goddess worship was also practiced and this is where the veneration of Mary originated….Mary came to have the mother goddess titles applied to her…”Mother of God”, “Queen of Heaven” and “Our Lady”……but most Catholic people have no idea why Mary features so strongly in their beliefs, when she hardly features at all in the Bible. Her role, though an important one was not given prominence because the son of God had to enter the world from a human mother….if it wasn’t Mary, it would have been someone equally favored by God to raise his son. Her circumstances at the time were suitable for God’s purpose. No doubt a wonderful mother, but not given any real prominence, nor did she remain a virgin.

If the call to “get out of Babylon the great” is obeyed, then those who have been shackled to Christendom’s false beliefs, perhaps all their lives, will be the ones who will see the truth about her origins and obey God’s command. They were born in Babylon and taught her beliefs, but God calls his “people“ out of that rabble….they see Babylon the great for what she is….a religious prostitute, in bed with the kings of the earth, currying their favor. (James 4:4)

If God’s command is not obeyed, then Babylon the great will go down, but she will take all those who cling to her, down into death with her. Like a sinking ship, she will drag any who are too close, down into the depths of oblivion….never to be seen again. (Rev 18:21-24)
If I might add to your work here?

You will notice how it's called "Mystery, Babylon the Great", you are correct that the woman is identified with Rome in Rev 17:18, and therefore with Roman Catholicism! The papal system represents the perfecting of that "mystery of iniquity" that was working even in the time of the Apostles, see 2 Thess. 2:7, but whose full manifestation was hindered by paganism. The Catholic system specialises in mystery.

2:7 For the hidden power of lawlessness is already at work. However, the one who holds him back will do so until he is taken out of the way, 2 Th 2:7.

Are we surprised “Babylon” means “confusion! How many times have believers said "its a mystery!" You have a hidden power, mysterious teachings which cannot be known and has its basis in confusion.

Are we surprised the call is to come out of her?

It's the single cause for so much spiritual confusion in this forum.

F2F
 

face2face

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Mystery is a word that often comes up when we are talking to “Christians.” It is the way in which people are told not to dig any deeper, not to search further, not to really push for Truth.
 
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Jack

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No doubt babylon will fully support Bible hating Kingdom Hall!
 

Skovand

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Babylon is just the name of a city that rose in power and was often the enemy of God. It’s the same name for the Tower of Babel. Just means tower of Babylon. It’s symbolically used as the enemy to god and his people throughout biblical literature. At the time the bugle was being written, their known world was very small. So it often was a metaphors for the powers of Rome.
 

Hobie

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“Babylon the great” is also translated as “the greater Babylon…..so, what is the Babylon connection?
What do those in “Babylon the great“ all have in common? And why is it God’s instruction for his “people” to “get out of her” before he brings her to ruin? (Rev 18:4-5) Why are his “people” in Babylon the great in the first place?

Original Babylon was built by the first rebel after the flood.…Noah’s grandson, Nimrod, son of Cush, he was the builder of the cities of Babel, Erech, Accad, and Calneh, all in the land of Shinar….said to be the cradle of civilization…and with good reason. (Gen 10:10)

It was likely under his direction that the building of the infamous Babel and its tower began. This conclusion is also in agreement with the traditional Jewish view.

Josephus wrote…..“[Nimrod] little by little transformed the state of affairs into a tyranny, holding that the only way to detach men from the fear of God was by making them continuously dependent upon his own power. He threatened to have his revenge on God if He wished to inundate the earth again; for he would build a tower higher than the water could reach and avenge the destruction of their forefathers. The people were eager to follow this advice of [Nimrod], deeming it slavery to submit to God; so they set out to build the tower . . . and it rose with a speed beyond all expectation.” (Jewish Antiquities, I, 114, 115 (iv, 2, 3))

So original Babylon is the birthplace of rebellion against God after he had cleansed the earth of wickedness the first time, by a flood…the tower had a purpose which was against God’s express command.

The evidence of Scripture points to the land of Shinar as the post-flood birthplace of all false religious concepts. Undoubtedly under the direction of Nimrod, who is described in the Bible as “a mighty hunter before(or in opposition to) Jehovah,” with the building of the city of Babel and its tower, likely a ziggurat to be used for false worship, an empire was begun. This building project was undertaken, not to bring honor to God, but for the self-glorification of the builders, who desired to make “a celebrated name” for themselves.

Also, it was in direct opposition to God’s stated purpose, which was for mankind to spread about in the earth. Jehovah frustrated the plans of these builders by confusing their language. No longer being able to understand one another, they gradually left off building the city and were scattered about in the earth as those who understood one another’s language, grouped together. (Gen 10:8-10; Gen 11:2-9)

However, Nimrod apparently remained at Babel and expanded his dominion, founding the first Babylonian Empire. (Gen 10:11-12)
“Babylon the great” is therefore a mirror image of original Babylon, only on a much larger scale….a global religious empire inspired by the devil came to be founded by all the various language groups who left the city to go to other places, taking their false religious ideas with them….and most of them also taking the legend of the flood with them as well.

The religious ideas found in all false religion, include the worship of multiple gods, some known by different names in different cultures, but are clearly the same false gods and goddesses…..Roman Catholicism managed to squeeze three gods into one head, thereby denying the practice of polytheism. There is also belief in life after death with an immortal part of humans leaving the body at death to go to either a hell of fiery torment….or to a heaven of bliss…..these are not opposing destinations for the dead in the Bible.

Mother goddess worship was also practiced and this is where the veneration of Mary originated….Mary came to have the mother goddess titles applied to her…”Mother of God”, “Queen of Heaven” and “Our Lady”……but most Catholic people have no idea why Mary features so strongly in their beliefs, when she hardly features at all in the Bible. Her role, though an important one was not given prominence because the son of God had to enter the world from a human mother….if it wasn’t Mary, it would have been someone equally favored by God to raise his son. Her circumstances at the time were suitable for God’s purpose. No doubt a wonderful mother, but not given any real prominence, nor did she remain a virgin.

If the call to “get out of Babylon the great” is obeyed, then those who have been shackled to Christendom’s false beliefs, perhaps all their lives, will be the ones who will see the truth about her origins and obey God’s command. They were born in Babylon and taught her beliefs, but God calls his “people“ out of that rabble….they see Babylon the great for what she is….a religious prostitute, in bed with the kings of the earth, currying their favor. (James 4:4)

If God’s command is not obeyed, then Babylon the great will go down, but she will take all those who cling to her, down into death with her. Like a sinking ship, she will drag any who are too close, down into the depths of oblivion….never to be seen again. (Rev 18:21-24)
There are many good Catholics that dont know the origin of the Roman Catholic church and its pagan doctrines who will come out once they see the truth in Gods Word
 

Aunty Jane

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There are many good Catholics that dont know the origin of the Roman Catholic church and its pagan doctrines who will come out once they see the truth in Gods Word
Yes….as there are those people in all forms of false worship….proclaimed “Christians” and non Christians. We encounter these people every day in our preaching work…..the very reason why Jesus sent us out to find them (Matt 28:19-20)…..and and it’s a privilege to give them a sound and realistic hope for the future and to explain why the world is, the way it is.

The big picture is missing in so many people’s belief systems, but once you go back to the beginning and see what God first purposed for mankind on this carefully and lovingly prepared planet, and you understand what actually happened back in Eden with its dire ramifications, and the wisdom of God in the way he chose to handle the situation…..it is absolutely brilliant!
 

Skovand

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There is also a lot of small minded hateful people who justify their bigotry, discrimination, legalism and general hardheartedness by weaponizing the Bible by joining it to their modern political outlooks.
 

Aunty Jane

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There is also a lot of small minded hateful people who justify their bigotry, discrimination, legalism and general hardheartedness by weaponizing the Bible by joining it to their modern political outlooks.
That is unfortunately true….and I find Americans particularly vulnerable to having their loyalties divided over politics, because of failing to do what Jesus said….to be “no part of the world”…..what does that entail?

When the devil offered Jesus “ALL THE KINGDOMS OF THE WORLD” because he said that they had been “delivered“ to him, (Luke 4:5-7) and the apostle John said the “the whole world is lying in the power of the wicked one” (1John 5:19)…..what part of the world is not then under Satan’s control? Would it not explain the deplorable state of the political world and the corruption of its governments and rulers?
Would it not also explain the direction the world is now heading into? Slavery disguised as freedom is about to lose its mask as God exposes all the hidden corruption of Satan’s rulership…..we have only seen the tip of the iceberg…..there is so much more to come….buckle up….

From early childhood Americans are taught to put their patriotism before their Christianity…..you cannot serve two masters……nor can you have a foot in both worlds. “No part of the world” means to have no part in it rulership….or to even have an opinion about it….God is in full control and knows exactly when to act…..at a time no one expects. (Matt 24: 43-44) Many will be caught with their political pants down….
 
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NotTheRock

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There is also a lot of small minded hateful people who justify their bigotry, discrimination, legalism and general hardheartedness by weaponizing the Bible by joining it to their modern political outlooks.

I think you're discussing something not related to the topic.
 

quietthinker

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“Babylon the great” is also translated as “the greater Babylon…..so, what is the Babylon connection?
What do those in “Babylon the great“ all have in common? And why is it God’s instruction for his “people” to “get out of her” before he brings her to ruin? (Rev 18:4-5) Why are his “people” in Babylon the great in the first place?

Original Babylon was built by the first rebel after the flood.…Noah’s grandson, Nimrod, son of Cush, he was the builder of the cities of Babel, Erech, Accad, and Calneh, all in the land of Shinar….said to be the cradle of civilization…and with good reason. (Gen 10:10)

It was likely under his direction that the building of the infamous Babel and its tower began. This conclusion is also in agreement with the traditional Jewish view.

Josephus wrote…..“[Nimrod] little by little transformed the state of affairs into a tyranny, holding that the only way to detach men from the fear of God was by making them continuously dependent upon his own power. He threatened to have his revenge on God if He wished to inundate the earth again; for he would build a tower higher than the water could reach and avenge the destruction of their forefathers. The people were eager to follow this advice of [Nimrod], deeming it slavery to submit to God; so they set out to build the tower . . . and it rose with a speed beyond all expectation.” (Jewish Antiquities, I, 114, 115 (iv, 2, 3))

So original Babylon is the birthplace of rebellion against God after he had cleansed the earth of wickedness the first time, by a flood…the tower had a purpose which was against God’s express command.

The evidence of Scripture points to the land of Shinar as the post-flood birthplace of all false religious concepts. Undoubtedly under the direction of Nimrod, who is described in the Bible as “a mighty hunter before(or in opposition to) Jehovah,” with the building of the city of Babel and its tower, likely a ziggurat to be used for false worship, an empire was begun. This building project was undertaken, not to bring honor to God, but for the self-glorification of the builders, who desired to make “a celebrated name” for themselves.

Also, it was in direct opposition to God’s stated purpose, which was for mankind to spread about in the earth. Jehovah frustrated the plans of these builders by confusing their language. No longer being able to understand one another, they gradually left off building the city and were scattered about in the earth as those who understood one another’s language, grouped together. (Gen 10:8-10; Gen 11:2-9)

However, Nimrod apparently remained at Babel and expanded his dominion, founding the first Babylonian Empire. (Gen 10:11-12)
“Babylon the great” is therefore a mirror image of original Babylon, only on a much larger scale….a global religious empire inspired by the devil came to be founded by all the various language groups who left the city to go to other places, taking their false religious ideas with them….and most of them also taking the legend of the flood with them as well.

The religious ideas found in all false religion, include the worship of multiple gods, some known by different names in different cultures, but are clearly the same false gods and goddesses…..Roman Catholicism managed to squeeze three gods into one head, thereby denying the practice of polytheism. There is also belief in life after death with an immortal part of humans leaving the body at death to go to either a hell of fiery torment….or to a heaven of bliss…..these are not opposing destinations for the dead in the Bible.

Mother goddess worship was also practiced and this is where the veneration of Mary originated….Mary came to have the mother goddess titles applied to her…”Mother of God”, “Queen of Heaven” and “Our Lady”……but most Catholic people have no idea why Mary features so strongly in their beliefs, when she hardly features at all in the Bible. Her role, though an important one was not given prominence because the son of God had to enter the world from a human mother….if it wasn’t Mary, it would have been someone equally favored by God to raise his son. Her circumstances at the time were suitable for God’s purpose. No doubt a wonderful mother, but not given any real prominence, nor did she remain a virgin.

If the call to “get out of Babylon the great” is obeyed, then those who have been shackled to Christendom’s false beliefs, perhaps all their lives, will be the ones who will see the truth about her origins and obey God’s command. They were born in Babylon and taught her beliefs, but God calls his “people“ out of that rabble….they see Babylon the great for what she is….a religious prostitute, in bed with the kings of the earth, currying their favor. (James 4:4)

If God’s command is not obeyed, then Babylon the great will go down, but she will take all those who cling to her, down into death with her. Like a sinking ship, she will drag any who are too close, down into the depths of oblivion….never to be seen again. (Rev 18:21-24)
Babylon the Great does not necessarily consist of nameable denominations (particularly those whom one is opposed to)
Babylon the Great is far broader than that. It embraces all who operate by the principle of selfishness regardless whether their doctrines are right or wrong......and because of this, many of God's people are in this system. They have not yet come to the realisation that the Kingdom of God is a Kingdom of Grace. It consists of giving not taking; its MO is humility rather than pride, it has the interest of the other over and above self interest.
It is what Jesus clarified to the rich young ruler who asked him about gaining eternal life. It appeared the price was too high for him. Mark 10:17-27
 

Aunty Jane

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So God created beings with full knowledge that they would be deceived and, consequently, would then punish them FOREVER?
God created sentient beings with free will.....he educated them and told them how to gain everlasting life in paradise on earth, but when Adam’s sin took it away from them, he implemented a plan to save them. He sent his son to die in our place....the price of redemption was a sinless life offered for a sinless life.

It is the exercise of our free will that means the difference between life and death....we choose to do as we are told by the one who gave us life.....or we can choose to ignore and disobey him.....by our choice we choose life or death. How is that not fair?
Life was conditional from the outset......obey and live...disobey and die. Who has more right to lay down the rules that the one who made us?

When we buy as new appliance it usually has a guarantee from the manufacturer that is conditional....who says that is not fair?

What is the fate of Catholics that die as Catholics?
The same fate as anyone who worships a false god and practices what God condemns.

It is "absolutely brilliant" that God punishes his creation FOREVER?
Who said he punishes his creation forever? He gave humankind the opportunity to live forever in paradise on earth....they disobeyed the only command that they knew carried the death penalty, and basically threw us all under the bus.....satan lied to the woman to entice her to eat the fruit.....when she did that, she condemned herself to death, but Adam was the one who put all the nails in our coffin. It was through the man, not the woman, that sin entered into the world. (Romans 5:12)

If Adam had rejected his wife’s encouragement to eat of the one tree that God had claimed as his own property, (a symbol of his Universal Sovereignty) we would not be having this conversation. That one restriction created no hardship whatsoever for the pair as they had many varieties of fruit to choose from. The tree itself did not produce poisonous fruit but to partake of it would cause their death......taking the fruit of that tree, forced God to restrict access to the other tree in the garden....”the tree of life”. (Gen 3:22-24) It was this tree that would give them everlasting life. But sin now dominated their thinking because they chose to know it....one of those things that ‘once the genie was out of the bottle’ so to speak...their was no putting it back. They could not undo what they had just unleashed.
Verse please?
John 17:16....”They are no part of the world, just as I am no part of the world.”

John 18:36....”Jesus answered: “My Kingdom is no part of this world. If my Kingdom were part of this world, my attendants would have fought that I should not be handed over to the Jews. But as it is, my Kingdom is not from this source.”
Verse please?
Luke 4:5-7 “All the kingdoms of the world” are under the control of Satan, because God gave them to him so that he could prove his claim to be the better god and ruler of mankind....Jesus did not dispute that statement.....so how is he doing?
Not really, but this is probably left for another thread.
Being “part of the world” is a trait of those in “Babylon the great”.....”Friendship with the world” makes one “an enemy of God” (James 4:4) Those in “Babylon the great” justify participation in wars because their love of their nation is their first concern.....a Christian has their citizenship in God’s Kingdom, not man’s. (Acts 10:24-25)

What happens when those on opposing sides of a war identify as Christians? Whose side does God take?
If he has told us to be no part of the world, then he doesn’t need to take sides...a genuine Christian would not participate in bloodshed.

According to the apostle Paul....we are to....”Return evil for evil to no one. Take into consideration what is fine from the viewpoint of all men. 18  If possible, as far as it depends on you, be peaceable with all men. 19  Do not avenge yourselves, beloved, but yield place to the wrath; for it is written: “‘Vengeance is mine; I will repay,’ says Jehovah.” 20  But “if your enemy is hungry, feed him; if he is thirsty, give him something to drink; for by doing this you will heap fiery coals on his head.” 21  Do not let yourself be conquered by the evil, but keep conquering the evil with the good.”

Also John says....If anyone says, “I love God,” and yet is hating his brother, he is a liar. For the one who does not love his brother, whom he has seen, cannot love God, whom he has not seen. 21  And we have this commandment from him, that whoever loves God must also love his brother.” (1 John 4:20-21)
That rules out taking up weapons against a fellow brother in Christ....and Paul says vengeance belongs to God, not us.
 
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