Secondhand Lion said:
Alright, well, you and I are going to see that differently. I am a very simple man, and thank God He keeps things very simple for people such as myself. I might suggest, that we can take all of the very simple statements made by God and take them at face value. No higher understanding or hidden message needs to be taken away from the very simple or most basic statements made by God. Therefore, if a "higher" understanding of something conflicts with a very simple statement...we need to check our "higher" understanding...in my opinion.
All have sinned and come short of the glory of God is a pretty straight forward simple statement. (no age restriction mentioned here)
All of my righteousness is as filthy rags is another.
If you can pardon my unlearned perspective, I might also suggest that some have the tendency to misuse the focus in the example of Cain and the others you mentioned. Cain's choice was one that we all have: walk with God (what we were intended to do, what God had set up for us to do originally, what God meant to be natural to us), or make his own choice and of his (cain's) own power walk apart from God. The focus is still on God...not Cain in this perspective. You see, it is all about Christ, not us. (This, I am sure we agree on) God can use anything or anyone to accomplish His purpose, whether a person is compliant or not to doing the will of God, whether the person wants to walk with God or not, nothing is impossible for Him.
SL
Rom 3:9 "
What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;"
"All" refers back to "they" and "they " refer to the two groups Jew and Gentiles. Paul in this context is not talking about individuals but talking about the two groups Jew and Gentiles. So "all" refers to the two groups Jew and Gentile and not to every single individual for Christ nor infants sin.
Going back to the context of Romans chapter 1-3 Paul is talking about the Gentiles who lived prior to the law of Moses, then Paul speaks of the Jews to whom the law of Moses was given and Paul concludes ALL [both these groups] are under sin. The reason Paul made this declaraton that these two groups were under sin was back at that time Christ had not yet shed His blood making perfect justication before God for those Gentiles and Jews impossible. Since neither group could not have their sins completely remitted by Christ's blood, Paul concludes both groups under sin. Paul later in Romans explains how all - Jew and Gentile - can have justification by faith in Christ, Rom 5:1ff.
So the context of Rom 3 has nothing to do with infants beng sinners, but Paul was proving to the Jewish group they were no better than the Gentile group for both groups, under OT times, were sinners being without Christ's shed blood.
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The context of Isa 64:6 is speaking of those (Israel) who were in iniquity. Those who obey God's righteousness/commandments are accepted with God, Acts 10:35, God meets/entreats those that work HIS righteousness, Isa 64:5..."
Thou meetest him that rejoiceth and worketh righteousness..."
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Gen 4:7 "
If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him."
God Himslef shows that man has no total depravity at all. For God said Cain could choose to do 'well' and not only able to do 'not well' "If" is a conditonal word, it shows it was conditonal upon Cain choosing for himself which he would do, implying Cain had the ability to choose to do either well or not well.
God further tells Cain to rule over sin which would not be possible if there were such a thing as total depravity.
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Both Christ and man have a role in man's salvation. Christ made a pathway to be saved available for man, it is up to man to choose to take that pathway to salvation. And man is not totally depraved that he is unable to choose to take that pathway.
Paul uses "all" in the same sesne Joel did when Joel proheices that Gd's spirit wouldbe poured out upon ALL flesh, Joel 2:28 ALl here does not mean every sinlge person would be baptized with the HS, but Joel is talking about the two groups JEw and Gentile. In Acts 2 the Aposltes (Jews) were bpatized with the HS and Acts 10 Cornelious (Gentile) was baptized with the HS so ALL, Jew and Gentile were bpatized with the HS.
lukethreesix said:
This whole arguement is solved with one verse, Matt 9:37. God HAS chosen a FEW. But these few who are "elected" by God are not chosen for salvation, but they are the FEW LABOURERS He sends to gather the great "plenteous HARVEST".
The "elect" themselves are not the harvest, the elect are the few who are chosen by God to bring in the many.
Remember it was Jesus who said, "I have chosen you, you did not choose me."
The "harvest" can be of the elect upon hearing and obeying the gospel of Christ but there are few taking the gospel to the "harvest". So
ANY of the harvest that hears and obey's Christ's gospel can become part of the foreknown group > Christian.
When Jesus said "I have chosen you, you did not choose me" Jesus was seaking to HIs apostles, Jesus chose them for that apostolic office.
