Who is this God that calls Himself US and OUR?
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That would be Jesus and the Holy Spirit. There at the beginning.
Jude Thaddeus
Active Member
Agreed, but how is Jesus and the Holy Spirit made unto "Our likeness?" The answer is a banned topic.
Spirit
The Hebrew word for God in this verse is ’ĕ·lō·hîm which is a plural form. It can be used to describe a single entity. As it is in Psalm 45:6. (Heb. 1:8 quotes this Psalm as referencing Christ.)
Michiah-Imla
Well-Known Member
The answer is a mystery.
“…to the acknowledgement of the mystery of God, and of the Father, and of Christ;” (Colossians 2:2, KJV)
Making doctrines on assumptions is not wise.
Jude Thaddeus
Active Member
Agreed. A mystery is something we can know some things, but we can't know everything about it. That's where faith comes in. Faith and reason are compatible, like 2 wings of a bird.
Neither is approaching the shores of a banned topic. This could be an interesting thread, with everyone, including me, walking on egg shells.
The statement of faith of this Christian site accepts that the 'banned topic' is true and so the discussion of said topic is banned. And so why have you begun this thread?
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Jude Thaddeus
Active Member
Wrangler
Well-Known Member
I reject the implied premise of your question. No one calls themselves "us" and "our." And the question ignores the 1,000's of times God refers to himself in the singular.
Abuse of Language. Can't expect less of you Jack.
This is a great video using Scripture to dispell many such appeals to mystery when seeking answers. We can know God. It's not a mystery. Doesn't appeal to mysticism, dualism or artificial synthesis.
I want them to be encouraged and knit together by strong ties of love. I want them to have complete confidence that they understand God’s mysterious plan, which is Christ himself. In him lie hidden all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge.
Colossians 2:2-3 (NLT)
Father ... And this is the way to have eternal life—to know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, the one you sent to earth.
John 17:1, 3
God did.
Genesis 1:26
26 Then God said, "Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness;
ONLY God is the Creator so He is clearly referring to Himself. And Scripture says He SENDS Himself.
Such irony!
Wrangler
Well-Known Member
No, he did not. Repeating your claim does not make it so. Again, you just deny the 1,000's of times God refered to himself using singular pronouns. What's that all about?
Finally, no comment on the vids or Scripture verses? Nice!
You keep denying Genesis 1:26 Then God said, "Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness;
and yet you won't tell us who US and OUR are.
Hint: ONLY God is the Creator!
I prefer Scripture over videos and your opinions. And yes, God sends Himself! Scripture says so.
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Wrangler
Well-Known Member
Nope. You are denying the text is ambiguous. Anyone can speculate but speculation is no foundation for sound doctrine. By comparison. You have to look at verse 26 through verse 4. Who is ‘he’ in verse 4?
Genesis 1:4
New Living Translation
4 And God saw that the light was good. Then he separated the light from the darkness.IOW, you don't know Who US and OUR are, even tho you already mentioned Him in Col 1.
Jesus is He, as you quoted:
Colossians 1:16-17
16 For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him. 17 And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist.
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Jude Thaddeus
Active Member
Modalism
Known as Sabellianism, after the third-century Roman priest Sabellius, who developed it, this heresy has had a number of other names, based upon different facets of the heresy and various conclusions that follow from it.
Sabellianism was revived at the time of the Reformation by Socinius, a Reformer considered a heretic even by other Protestants. Modalism arose in America during the nineteenth century and is today taught by several Pentecostal churches, the best known being the United Pentecostal Church (founded 1914).
The heresy was also called “Monarchianism.” Refuting these re-wrapped 19th century heresies leads into a banned topic.
Known as Sabellianism, after the third-century Roman priest Sabellius, who developed it, this heresy has had a number of other names, based upon different facets of the heresy and various conclusions that follow from it.
Sabellianism was revived at the time of the Reformation by Socinius, a Reformer considered a heretic even by other Protestants. Modalism arose in America during the nineteenth century and is today taught by several Pentecostal churches, the best known being the United Pentecostal Church (founded 1914).
The heresy was also called “Monarchianism.” Refuting these re-wrapped 19th century heresies leads into a banned topic.
Wrangler
Well-Known Member
Not an answer to my point of verse 4. Jack, Hebrews 4 & 5 says says is our High Priest. What does a priest do?
Jude Thaddeus
Active Member
Heb. 9:23 – in this verse, the author writes that the Old Testament sacrifices were only copies of the heavenly things, but now heaven has better “sacrifices” than these. Why is the heavenly sacrifice called “sacrifices,” in the plural? Jesus died once. This is because, while Christ’s sacrifice is transcendent in heaven, it touches down on earth and is sacramentally re-presented over and over again from the rising of the sun to its setting around the world by the priests of Christ’s Church. This is because all moments to God are present in their immediacy, and when we offer the memorial sacrifice to God, we ask God to make the sacrifice that is eternally present to Him also present to us. Jesus’ sacrifice also transcends time and space because it was the sacrifice of God Himself.
Heb. 9:23 – the Eucharistic sacrifice also fulfills Jer. 33:18 that His kingdom will consist of a sacrificial priesthood forever, and fulfills Zech. 9:15 that the sons of Zion shall drink blood like wine and be saved.
Heb. 13:15 – this “sacrifice of praise” refers to the actual sacrifice or “toda” offering of Christ who, like the Old Testament toda offerings, now must be consumed. See, for example, Lev. 7:12-15; 22:29-30 which also refer to the “sacrifice of praise” in connection with animals who had to be eaten after they were sacrificed.
Heb. 2:17; 3:1; 4:14; 8:1; 9:11,25; 10:19,22 – Jesus is repeatedly described as “High Priest.” But in order to be a priest, “it is necessary for [Jesus] to have something to offer.” Heb. 8:3. This is the offering of the eternal sacrifice of His body and blood to the Father.
Heb. 2:18 – although His suffering is past tense, His expiation of our sins is present tense because His offering is continual. Therefore, He is able (present tense) to help those who are tempted.
Heb. 5:6,10; 6:20; 7:15,17 – these verses show that Jesus restores the father-son priesthood after Melchizedek. Jesus is the new priest and King of Jerusalem and feeds the new children of Abraham with His body and blood. This means that His eternal sacrifice is offered in the same manner as the bread and wine offered by Melchizedek in Gen. 14:18. But the bread and wine that Jesus offers is different, just as the Passover Lamb of the New Covenant is different. The bread and wine become His body and blood by the overshadowing of the Holy Spirit.
Heb. 4:3 – God’s works were finished from the foundation of the world. This means that God’s works, including Christ’s sacrifice (the single act that secured the redemption of our souls and bodies), are forever present in eternity. Jesus’ suffering is over and done with (because suffering was earthly and temporal), but His sacrifice is eternal, because His priesthood is eternal (His victimized state was only temporal).
Heb. 4:14 – Jesus the Sacrifice passes through the heavens by the glory cloud of God, just like the sacrifices of Solomon were taken up into heaven by the glory cloud of God in 2 Chron. 7:1. See also Mark 16:19; Luke 24:51; and Acts 1:10.
Heb. 7:24 – Jesus holds His priesthood is forever because He continues forever, so His sacrificial offering is forever. He continues to offer His body and blood to us because He is forever our High Priest.
Heb. 8:2 – Jesus is a minister in the sanctuary offering up (present tense) His eternal sacrifice to the Father which is perfected in heaven. This is the same sanctuary that we enter with confidence by the blood of Jesus as written in Heb. 10:19. See also Heb. 12:22-24.
Heb. 8:3 – as High Priest, it is necessary for Jesus to have something to offer. What is Jesus offering in heaven? As eternal Priest, He offers the eternal sacrifice of His body and blood.
Heb. 8:6; 9:15; cf. Heb. 12:22-24; 13:20-21 – the covenant Jesus mediates (present tense) is better than the Old covenant. The covenant He mediates is the covenant of His body and blood which He offers in the Eucharist. See Matt. 26:26-28; Mark. 14:22,24; Luke 22;19-20; 1 Cor. 11:24-25 – which is the only time Jesus uses the word “covenant” (which is the offering of His body and blood).
Heb. 9:12 – Jesus enters into heaven, the Holy Place, taking His own blood. How can this be? He wasn’t bleeding after the resurrection. This is because He enters into the heavenly sanctuary to mediate the covenant of His body and blood by eternally offering it to the Father. This offering is made present to us in the same manner as Melchizedek’s offering, under the appearance of bread and wine.
Heb. 9:14 – the blood of Christ offered in heaven purifies (present tense) our consciences from dead works to serve the living God. Christ’s offering is ongoing.
Heb. 9:22 – blood is indeed required for the remission of sin. Jesus’ blood was shed once, but it is continually offered to the Father. This is why Jesus takes His blood, which was shed once and for all, into heaven. Heb. 9:12.
Heb. 9:23 – Jesus’ sacrifice, which is presented eternally to the Father in heaven, is described as “sacrifices” (in the plural) in the context of its re-presentation on earth (the author first writes about the earthly sacrifices of animals, and then the earthly offerings of Jesus Christ’s eternal sacrifice).
Heb. 9:26 – Jesus’ once and for all appearance into heaven to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself shows that Jesus’ presence in heaven and His sacrifice are inseparable. This also shows that “once for all,” which refers to Jesus’ appearance in heaven, means perpetual (it does not, and cannot mean, “over and done with” because Jesus is in heaven for eternity). “Once for all” also refers to Jesus’ suffering and death (Heb. 7:27; 9:12,26;10:10-14). But “once for all” never refers to Jesus’ sacrifice, which is eternally presented to the Father. This sacrifice is the Mal. 1:11 pure offering made present in every place from the rising of the sun to its setting in the Eucharist offered in the same manner as the Melchizedek offering.
Heb. 10:19 – we have confidence to enter the sanctuary by the blood of Jesus on earth in the Eucharistic liturgy, which is the heavenly sanctuary where Jesus’ offering is presented to God in Heb. 8:2.
Heb. 10:22 – our hearts and bodies are (not were) washed clean by the action of Jesus’ perpetual priesthood in heaven.
Heb. 13:10 – the author writes that we have an altar from which those who serve the tent have no right to eat. This altar is the heavenly altar at which Jesus presides as Priest before the Father, eternally offering His body and blood on our behalf. See. Mal. 1:7,12; Lev. 24:7; Ez. 41:22; 44:16; Rev. 5:6; 6:9; 9:13; 11:1; 16:7.
Heb. 13:20-21 – Jesus died once, but His blood of the eternal covenant is eternally offered to equip us (present tense) with everything good that we may do God’s will.
Heb. 13:8 – this is because Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever. While His suffering was temporal (because bodily pain is temporal), Jesus and His sacrifice are eternal (because redemption, salvation, and the mediation of the New covenant are eternal).
Heb. 13:15 – the letter concludes with an instruction to continually offer up, through Christ, a sacrifice of praise to God. The phrase “sacrifice of praise” refers to the “toda” animal sacrifices that had to be consumed. See, for example, Lev. 7:12-15; 22:29-30.
THE EUCHARIST - Scripture Catholic
Contents1 Scripture1.1 I. Old Testament1.1.1 (a). Foreshadowing of the Eucharistic Sacrifice1.1.2 (b). Foreshadowing of the Requirement to Consume the Sacrifice1.2 II. New Testament1.2.1 (a). Jesus Promises His Real Presence in the Eucharist1.2.2 (b). Jesus Institutes the Eucharist / More Proofs...
www.scripturecatholic.com
Wrangler
Well-Known Member
This "covenant" needs more explanation. We read in Matt. 26:28 that Jesus said "this is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins." But covenants are two-sided, like contracts, with promised performances on both sides. You've described one side of the bargain, "which is the offering of His body and blood." Care to describe the other side of this covenant? First of all, who IS on the other side? (God the Father? Mankind?) And how do the "many" for whom His blood is "poured out" separate themselves from the "all" in order to become part of the fortunate "many?"
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