Who is the Book of James writen to

[H. Richard]

The book of James was written to 1st century believers in Jesus Christ and to every believer since then.
It is not a book "for Jews only." It is a book for CHRISTIANS.

We are "under grace" because God does not have to save anyone from the consequences of sin but He does so because He is merciful; He is "gracious."

I have heard many people quote Ephesians 2:8-9 (For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast.) but completely ignore the very next verse: "For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them." (NKJV)

That says God created every one of us to do the good works which He personally prepared for us to do. And are you telling everyone who will listen that we don't have to do what God created us to do?

How is telling people not to do God's will a Christian behavior?

If you think that "under grace" means works are not necessary then I very humbly suggest that you please consider the following:

Jesus said :Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation. (John 5:28-29 NKJV)

Paul said: (God) will render to each one according to his deeds; eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath, tribulation and anguish, on every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek; but glory, honor, and peace to everyone who works what is good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. (Ro 6:2-10 NKJV)

Jesus also said: “But why do you call Me ‘Lord, Lord,' and not do the things which I say?" (Luk 6:46 NKJV) and: “If you love Me, keep My commandments." (Jhn 14:15 NKJV)

Finally, please consider Jesus' description of exactly what basis He will judge the world when He returns (Mat 25:31-46). Those who did "works" of mercy inherited the kingdom. Those who did not do "works" of mercy were sent to hell. He will judge mankind based on what they did or did not do. There will be no theology questions; the only thing He will examine is your WORKS.

Why would you, as a Christian, (I have no doubt about that) tell anyone NOT to do what Jesus specifically and clearly said we are to do?

I don't understand. :huh:

iakov

[SIZE=10pt]John 13:34 A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another;[/SIZE]​

[SIZE=10pt]as I have loved you, that you also love one another.[/SIZE]​

[SIZE=10pt]John 14:15 If you love Me, keep My commandments.[/SIZE]​

[SIZE=10pt](NKJV)[/SIZE]​

Why don't you believe the Holy Spriit who had James write --- James 1:1-2
1 James, a bondservant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, To the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad: Greetings.
Profiting from Trials 2 My brethren, count it all joy when you fall into various trials,
NKJV

What you are saying is that a person must ignore what James said here but agree with what he said in other parts. Not very good way to read your Bible.

 

[Barrd]

Gal 5:1-4
5 Stand fast therefore in the liberty by which Christ has made us free, and do not be entangled again with a yoke of bondage.--- (the letter of the law)
2 Indeed I, Paul, say to you that if you become circumcised, Christ will profit you nothing. ------ (becoming circumcised means obeying the law)
3 And I testify again to every man who becomes circumcised that he is a debtor to keep the whole law.
4 You have become estranged from Christ, you who attempt to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.
NKJV

This is only one place. There are many, many more.

Very good.
Now go on and read the rest of chapter 5:


Gal 5:13 For, brethren, ye have been called unto liberty; only use not liberty for an occasion to the flesh, but by love serve one another.
Gal 5:14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
Gal 5:15 But if ye bite and devour one another, take heed that ye be not consumed one of another.
Gal 5:16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.
Gal 5:17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.
Gal 5:18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.
Gal 5:19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
Gal 5:20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
Gal 5:21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
Gal 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
Gal 5:23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
Gal 5:24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.
Gal 5:25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.
Gal 5:26 Let us not be desirous of vain glory, provoking one another, envying one another.

Pay attention here:
Gal 5:17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.
Gal 5:18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.

Your flesh and the Holy Spirit are in conflict. Paul says if you be led of the Spirit, you are not under the law. But your flesh IS still under the law. Do you understand?

Gal 5:19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
Gal 5:20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
Gal 5:21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

Paul is very clear, here. If you do these things, you will NOT inherit the Kingdom of God. If that isn't a heads up, I'm not sure what is.

 

[Barrd]

The book of James was written to 1st century believers in Jesus Christ and to every believer since then.
It is not a book "for Jews only." It is a book for CHRISTIANS.

We are "under grace" because God does not have to save anyone from the consequences of sin but He does so because He is merciful; He is "gracious."

I have heard many people quote Ephesians 2:8-9 (For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast.) but completely ignore the very next verse: "For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them." (NKJV)

That says God created every one of us to do the good works which He personally prepared for us to do. And are you telling everyone who will listen that we don't have to do what God created us to do?

How is telling people not to do God's will a Christian behavior?

If you think that "under grace" means works are not necessary then I very humbly suggest that you please consider the following:

Jesus said :Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation. (John 5:28-29 NKJV)

Paul said: (God) will render to each one according to his deeds; eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath, tribulation and anguish, on every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek; but glory, honor, and peace to everyone who works what is good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. (Ro 6:2-10 NKJV)

Jesus also said: “But why do you call Me ‘Lord, Lord,' and not do the things which I say?" (Luk 6:46 NKJV) and: “If you love Me, keep My commandments." (Jhn 14:15 NKJV)

Finally, please consider Jesus' description of exactly what basis He will judge the world when He returns (Mat 25:31-46). Those who did "works" of mercy inherited the kingdom. Those who did not do "works" of mercy were sent to hell. He will judge mankind based on what they did or did not do. There will be no theology questions; the only thing He will examine is your WORKS.

Why would you, as a Christian, (I have no doubt about that) tell anyone NOT to do what Jesus specifically and clearly said we are to do?

I don't understand. :huh:

iakov

[SIZE=10pt]John 13:34 A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another;[/SIZE]​

[SIZE=10pt]as I have loved you, that you also love one another.[/SIZE]​

[SIZE=10pt]John 14:15 If you love Me, keep My commandments.[/SIZE]​

[SIZE=10pt](NKJV)[/SIZE]​

opcorn:
I knew there was a reason I liked you, you old KATHlick, you.
Looks as if you are going to be "a bit of a maverick" on this site, as well...

EDIT:
Don't mind me...my tongue tends to get stuck in my cheek rather often...

 

[H. Richard]

Very good.
Now go on and read the rest of chapter 5:

Gal 5:13 For, brethren, ye have been called unto liberty; only use not liberty for an occasion to the flesh, but by love serve one another.
Gal 5:14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
Gal 5:15 But if ye bite and devour one another, take heed that ye be not consumed one of another.
Gal 5:16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.
Gal 5:17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.
Gal 5:18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.
Gal 5:19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
Gal 5:20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
Gal 5:21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
Gal 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
Gal 5:23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
Gal 5:24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.
Gal 5:25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.
Gal 5:26 Let us not be desirous of vain glory, provoking one another, envying one another.

Pay attention here:
Gal 5:17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.
Gal 5:18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.

Your flesh and the Holy Spirit are in conflict. Paul says if you be led of the Spirit, you are not under the law. But your flesh IS still under the law. Do you understand?

Gal 5:19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
Gal 5:20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
Gal 5:21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

Paul is very clear, here. If you do these things, you will NOT inherit the Kingdom of God. If that isn't a heads up, I'm not sure what is.

Since you post this you must not think your sinful nature (flesh) ever sins, right! When will you get it that we have been set free of the condemnation of our sins of the flesh. The law and all of it's requirements have been nailed to the cross. Our sinful flesh can never be made sinless. Why didn't you quote the other words of Paul in Galatians. All you did was quote the ones YOU THINK indicate we are under law.

Gal 5:1-6
5 Stand fast therefore in the liberty by which Christ has made us free, and do not be entangled again with a yoke of bondage.
2 Indeed I, Paul, say to you that if you become circumcised, Christ will profit you nothing.
3 And I testify again to every man who becomes circumcised that he is a debtor to keep the whole law.
4 You have become estranged from Christ, you who attempt to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.
5 For we through the Spirit eagerly wait for the hope of righteousness by faith.
6 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision avails anything, but faith working through love. (God's love for us)
NKJV

Gal 6:11-14
11 See with what large letters I have written to you with my own hand!
12 As many as desire to make a good showing in the flesh, these would compel you to be circumcised, only that they may not suffer persecution for the cross of Christ.
13 For not even those who are circumcised keep the law, but they desire to have you circumcised that they may boast in your flesh.
14 But God forbid that I should boast except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world.
NKJV

You said, quote "Paul is very clear, here. If you do these things, you will NOT inherit the Kingdom of God. If that isn't a heads up, I'm not sure what is."

All it says is that flesh and blood will never enter the kingdom of heaven.

Pay attention to these verses from Romans

Rom 7:1-4
7 Or do you not know, brethren (for I speak to those who know the law), that the law has dominion over a man as long as he lives?
2 For the woman who has a husband is bound by the law to her husband as long as he lives. But if the husband dies, she is released from the law of her husband.
3 So then if, while her husband lives, she marries another man, she will be called an adulteress; but if her husband dies, she is free from that law, so that she is no adulteress, though she has married another man.
4 Therefore, my brethren, you also have become dead to the law through the body of Christ, that you may be married to another — to Him who was raised from the dead, that we should bear fruit to God.
NKJV

The fruit we are to bear is other children of God. To be abl4e to help them turn to Jesus in faith instead of religion.

 

[Barrd]

Since you post this you must not think your sinful nature (flesh) ever sins, right! When will you get it that we have been set free of the condemnation of our sins of the flesh. The law and all of it's requirements have been nailed to the cross. Our sinful flesh can never be made sinless. Why didn't you quote the other words of Paul in Galatians. All you did was quote the ones YOU THINK indicate we are under law.

Gal 5:1-6
5 Stand fast therefore in the liberty by which Christ has made us free, and do not be entangled again with a yoke of bondage.
2 Indeed I, Paul, say to you that if you become circumcised, Christ will profit you nothing.
3 And I testify again to every man who becomes circumcised that he is a debtor to keep the whole law.
4 You have become estranged from Christ, you who attempt to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.
5 For we through the Spirit eagerly wait for the hope of righteousness by faith.
6 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision avails anything, but faith working through love. (God's love for us)
NKJV

Gal 6:11-14
11 See with what large letters I have written to you with my own hand!
12 As many as desire to make a good showing in the flesh, these would compel you to be circumcised, only that they may not suffer persecution for the cross of Christ.
13 For not even those who are circumcised keep the law, but they desire to have you circumcised that they may boast in your flesh.
14 But God forbid that I should boast except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world.
NKJV

You said, quote "Paul is very clear, here. If you do these things, you will NOT inherit the Kingdom of God. If that isn't a heads up, I'm not sure what is."

All it says is that flesh and blood will never enter the kingdom of heaven.

Pay attention to these verses from Romans

Rom 7:1-4
7 Or do you not know, brethren (for I speak to those who know the law), that the law has dominion over a man as long as he lives?
2 For the woman who has a husband is bound by the law to her husband as long as he lives. But if the husband dies, she is released from the law of her husband.
3 So then if, while her husband lives, she marries another man, she will be called an adulteress; but if her husband dies, she is free from that law, so that she is no adulteress, though she has married another man.
4 Therefore, my brethren, you also have become dead to the law through the body of Christ, that you may be married to another — to Him who was raised from the dead, that we should bear fruit to God.
NKJV

The fruit we are to bear is other children of God. To be abl4e to help them turn to Jesus in faith instead of religion.

Just as I had told you before I ever even got started....you would accuse me of skipping "important verses". Which, of course, would be any verses that do not agree with you.

What you obviously do not understand is that most of this book is dealing with the idea that Gentiles who wished to become Christians must be circumcised. Paul is insisting that this is a law that need not be kept. And I would agree with him, as this is a part of the law of Moses...that part that was NOT written with God's Own hand, on tablets of stone, and placed inside of the Ark of the Covenant.

It is not about:
Thou shalt have no other Gods before me.
Thou shalt not make any graven images (idols) and worship them.
Thou shalt not make My Name a curse.
Thou shalt sanctify My Sabbath.
Thou shalt honor thy father and mother.
Thou shalt not kill.
Thou shalt not commit adultery.
Thou shalt not steal.
Thou shalt not lie.
Thou shalt not covet.

Those laws were meant for all mankind through all of time.

No Christian would ever tell you that it is okay to violate these commands....basically because it isn't.
And Paul certainly was not teaching any such thing.

As for my "sinful flesh", we already covered that. Yes, I am a sinner who has fallen short of the glory of God, just like anyone else.
You don't seem to understand...that is what grace is for...forgiveness for sin.
God didn't subtract the law...He added grace.

 

[H. Richard]

Just as I had told you before I ever even got started....you would accuse me of skipping "important verses". Which, of course, would be any verses that do not agree with you.

What you obviously do not understand is that most of this book is dealing with the idea that Gentiles who wished to become Christians must be circumcised. Paul is insisting that this is a law that need not be kept. And I would agree with him, as this is a part of the law of Moses...that part that was NOT written with God's Own hand, on tablets of stone, and placed inside of the Ark of the Covenant.

It is not about:
Thou shalt have no other Gods before me.
Thou shalt not make any graven images (idols) and worship them.
Thou shalt not make My Name a curse.
Thou shalt sanctify My Sabbath.
Thou shalt honor thy father and mother.
Thou shalt not kill.
Thou shalt not commit adultery.
Thou shalt not steal.
Thou shalt not lie.
Thou shalt not covet.

Those laws were meant for all mankind through all of time.

No Christian would ever tell you that it is okay to violate these commands....basically because it isn't.
And Paul certainly was not teaching any such thing.

As for my "sinful flesh", we already covered that. Yes, I am a sinner who has fallen short of the glory of God, just like anyone else.
You don't seem to understand...that is what grace is for...forgiveness for sin.
God didn't subtract the law...He added grace.

The scripture includes all the law.

Gal 5:4
4 You have become estranged from Christ, you who attempt to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.
NKJV

 

[H. Richard]

Very good.
Now go on and read the rest of chapter 5:

Gal 5:13 For, brethren, ye have been called unto liberty; only use not liberty for an occasion to the flesh, but by love serve one another.
Gal 5:14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
Gal 5:15 But if ye bite and devour one another, take heed that ye be not consumed one of another.
Gal 5:16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.
Gal 5:17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.
Gal 5:18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.
Gal 5:19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
Gal 5:20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
Gal 5:21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
Gal 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
Gal 5:23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
Gal 5:24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.
Gal 5:25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.
Gal 5:26 Let us not be desirous of vain glory, provoking one another, envying one another.

Pay attention here:
Gal 5:17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.
Gal 5:18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.

Your flesh and the Holy Spirit are in conflict. Paul says if you be led of the Spirit, you are not under the law. But your flesh IS still under the law. Do you understand?

Gal 5:19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
Gal 5:20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
Gal 5:21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

Paul is very clear, here. If you do these things, you will NOT inherit the Kingdom of God. If that isn't a heads up, I'm not sure what is.

Barrd, when I said to read the book of Galatians I didn't mean that you should just focus on one part, but to focus on the whole book. You have taken what Paul described as the work of the flesh and used it to try and say anyone who does those things will not be saved. All Paul is saying is that sinful flesh and blood will never go to heaven. Why?? Because everyone commits sin, some worse than others but still even to softer one result in breaking the law.

But the whole book is Paul trying to show his Gentile believers that they can not go back under the law because the law is not grace.

You totally missed this in Galatians.

Gal 3:21-26
21 Is the law then against the promises of God? Certainly not! For if there had been a law given which could have given life, truly righteousness would have been by the law.
22 But the Scripture has confined all under sin, that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.
23 But """"before faith came"", we were kept under guard by the law, kept for the faith which would afterward be revealed.

Question??? when was it revealed????? It seem to me that the law we were under has pasted away with the word WERE (the 6th word in verse 23)
24 Therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
25 But after faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor. (Pay attention to this verse 25. It says what I have been saying ""WE ARE NO LONGER UNDER THE LAW, PERIOD)
Sons and Heirs 26 For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus.
NKJV

This is the very verse that indicates to me that I am not a Christian; I am a child of God """IN CHRIST JESUS"""".

 

[Barrd]

Barrd, when I said to read the book of Galatians I didn't mean that you should just focus on one part, but to focus on the whole book. You have taken what Paul described as the work of the flesh and used it to try and say anyone who does those things will not be saved. All Paul is saying is that sinful flesh and blood will never go to heaven. Why?? Because everyone commits sin, some worse than others but still even to softer one result in breaking the law.

But the whole book is Paul trying to show his Gentile believers that they can not go back under the law because the law is not grace.

You totally missed this in Galatians.

Gal 3:21-26
21 Is the law then against the promises of God? Certainly not! For if there had been a law given which could have given life, truly righteousness would have been by the law.
22 But the Scripture has confined all under sin, that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.
23 But """"before faith came"", we were kept under guard by the law, kept for the faith which would afterward be revealed.

Question??? when was it revealed????? It seem to me that the law we were under has pasted away with the word WERE (the 6th word in verse 23)
24 Therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
25 But after faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor. (Pay attention to this verse 25. It says what I have been saying ""WE ARE NO LONGER UNDER THE LAW, PERIOD)
Sons and Heirs 26 For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus.
NKJV

This is the very verse that indicates to me that I am not a Christian; I am a child of God """IN CHRIST JESUS"""".

When I focus on the whole book, I see that Paul is upset because some folks are trying to tell his converts that they must be circumcised.
Now, trying to get a grown man to submit to circumcision might be a bit...uh...tricky. And Paul saw no need for it.
As you probably know, the whole thing ended up with Paul going to Jerusalem to get the Apostle's take on this issue...and the Apostles gave their decision through the mouth of James.

But Paul is not saying here that we may now toss out the rule book. Not at all.

Gal 5:19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
Gal 5:20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
Gal 5:21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

Do you want to inherit the kingdom of God?
Then, Paul says, don't do these things.

You've got all kinds of verses from the rest of Galatians...well, except for the ones where he specifies that he is talking about circumcision, and not stealing, or lying, etc...
But why do you not quote from Galatians 5? Why do you ignore the fifth chapter?
Is there something about that chapter you do not like?

 

[H. Richard]

Very nice.
But why do you not quote from Galatians 5? Why do you ignore the fifth chapter?
Is there something about that chapter you do not like?

I haven't ignored chapter 5. In context of the whole book chapter 5 is still telling us that we are not to chose to go back under the law.

Gal 5:17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.
Gal 5:18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.

You said; "Your flesh and the Holy Spirit are in conflict. Paul says if you be led of the Spirit, you are not under the law. But your flesh IS still under the law. Do you understand?"

Of course I do. That is just what Paul taught in Romans 7 but most ignore the truth even in Romans 7. They will always ignore the last 7 words.

Rom 7:24-25
24 O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death?
25 I thank God — through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin.
NKJV

In verse 24 we see that Jesus delivers us from our bodies of sinful flesh. That does not mean He makes our sinful flesh into flesh that does not sin. It means His shed blood on the cross has paid for our salvation AND delivers us from the condemnation of our sins.

 

[Barrd]

I haven't ignored chapter 5. In context of the whole book chapter 5 is still telling us that we are not to chose to go back under the law.

Gal 5:17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.
Gal 5:18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.

You said; "Your flesh and the Holy Spirit are in conflict. Paul says if you be led of the Spirit, you are not under the law. But your flesh IS still under the law. Do you understand?"

Of course I do. That is just what Paul taught in Romans 7 but most ignore the truth even in Romans 7. They will always ignore the last 7 words.

Rom 7:24-25
24 O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death?
25 I thank God — through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin.
NKJV

In verse 24 we see that Jesus delivers us from our bodies of sinful flesh. That does not mean He makes our sinful flesh into flesh that does not sin. It means His shed blood on the cross has paid for our salvation AND delivers us from the condemnation of our sins.

Let me repeat:

Gal 5:19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
Gal 5:20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
Gal 5:21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

Do you want to inherit the kingdom of God?
Then, Paul says, don't do these things.

Now, you believe that Jesus' blood covers these sins, right? You may do them, and still expect to go to heaven, because Jesus died for you.
He paid for your sins...so go ahead and get His money's worth, is that it?

NO! Richard, that's not how it works.
Paul says:

they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

In other words, if you do these things, you will stand condemned before God. Jesus didn't die to give you permission to party down. I don't understand why people do not get that.

 

[H. Richard]

Let me repeat:

Gal 5:19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
Gal 5:20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
Gal 5:21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

Do you want to inherit the kingdom of God?
Then, Paul says, don't do these things.

Now, you believe that Jesus' blood covers these sins, right? You may do them, and still expect to go to heaven, because Jesus died for you.
He paid for your sins...so go ahead and get His money's worth, is that it?

NO! Richard, that's not how it works.
Paul says:

they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

In other words, if you do these things, you will stand condemned before God. Jesus didn't die to give you permission to party down. I don't understand why people do not get that.

And I do not understand how you can say you don't do any of those things since you have already said you still sin in the flesh

Your conclusion on these verse TAKEN OUT OF CONTEXT is not right. If they are then no one will ever go to heaven. WHY? Because every one of us still sin in the flesh.

You said
"Now, you believe that Jesus' blood covers these sins, right? You may do them, and still expect to go to heaven, because Jesus died for you.
He paid for your sins...so go ahead and get His money's worth, is that it"

The last 10 word show that you are jealous of those that have placed all their faith in the work of Jesus on the cross. You have to built a strawman of a child of God wanting to sin. In reality a child of God is still living in a sinful body and will sin. I have posted it before but you refuse to see it

Rom 7:24-25
24 O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death?
25 I thank God — through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin.
NKJV

Phil 3:3
3 For we are the circumcision, who worship God in the Spirit, rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh,
NKJV

 

[Barrd]

And I do not understand how you can say you don't do any of those things since you have already said you still sin in the flesh

Your conclusion on these verse TAKEN OUT OF CONTEXT is not right. If they are then no one will ever go to heaven. WHY? Because every one of us still sin in the flesh.

You said
"Now, you believe that Jesus' blood covers these sins, right? You may do them, and still expect to go to heaven, because Jesus died for you.
He paid for your sins...so go ahead and get His money's worth, is that it"

The last 10 word show that you are jealous of those that have placed all their faith in the work of Jesus on the cross. You have to built a strawman of a child of God wanting to sin. In reality a child of God is still living in a sinful body and will sin. I have posted it before but you refuse to see it

Rom 7:24-25
24 O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death?
25 I thank God — through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin.
NKJV

Phil 3:3
3 For we are the circumcision, who worship God in the Spirit, rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh,
NKJV

You still don't get it.
Of course, you don't. It isn't really your fault. It's a very popular doctrine. Of course it is. We do not like "rules", do we?
Sadly, too many "Christians" are more familiar with Paul than they are with Jesus.
I'd say that these are more "Paulian" than Christian...except that they don't really understand Paul, either.

Did Paul really say that we are "not under the law, but under grace"? Yes. Yes he did. And what did he mean by that?


Rom 6:15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.
Rom 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

So, whose servant are you? It's a quandary, isn't it?
It was a quandary for Paul, too:


Rom 7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

Now, why would Paul teach others that the law had been "done away", and then keep it himself? Don't think he did?


Act 24:14 But this I confess unto thee, that after the way which they call heresy, so worship I the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the law and in the prophets:

Act 25:8 While he answered for himself, Neither against the law of the Jews, neither against the temple, nor yet against Caesar, have I offended any thing at all.
Act 18:21 But bade them farewell, saying, I must by all means keep this feast that cometh in Jerusalem: but I will return again unto you, if God will. And he sailed from Ephesus.

So, who is "justified" before God? Really?
What does Paul tell us?

Rom 2:12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;
Rom 2:13 For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.


I could go on. The truth is that unlearned and unstable men have twisted Paul's words to make them mean something that Paul never meant...something directly in opposition to the things Jesus taught, and directly in opposition to the message He sent the Apostles to deliver to "all nations".

 

[Barrd]

You admit that you sin, Richard. Are you now going to tell me that you didn't want to do whatever it was?
Let me guess...."the devil made you do it".

Yeah, right...

 

[H. Richard]

You admit that you sin, Richard. Are you now going to tell me that you didn't want to do whatever it was?
Let me guess...."the devil made you do it".

Yeah, right...

You have admitted that you sin too. Who made you do it?

There is only one way to get into heaven and that is trough faith in Jesus' shed blood on the cross, period.

Have you not read the scriptures?

Rom 5:12
Death in Adam, Life in Christ (Gen 3:1-19) 12 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned —
NKJV
Rom 5:18-19
18 Therefore, as through one man's offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation, even so through one Man's righteous act the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life.
19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so also by one Man's obedience many will be made righteous.
NKJV

You just can't stand the fact that it is a free gift. That is the mistake that Cain made; wanting God to accept his offering when God had told him that it had to be a blood offering. Cain insisted that God take the work of his hands.