Who is the Book of James writen to

[H. Richard]

In a Sunday School class a statement made by James in the book of James was referenced.

James 2:20-21
20 But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead?

No one in the class disagreed with this statement but I should have. I do not believe that a statement made by James, to the Jews who were under the law of Moses, applies to us today who are under grace. I do not believe the book of James was written to both the Jews under law (James 1:1) and Gentiles who are not under the law. If it was then the Holy Spirit was in error when He had James write chapter 1, verse 1. This verse, in plain words, tell us who the book was written to. To apply what is said in James to those under grace is, in my opinion, a false teaching.

 

[Deborah_]

I have a big problem with this.

Being 'under grace' doesn't make good works redundant or irrelevant.

As Jesus said, 'By their fruit you will recognise them.' (Matthew 7:20)

We are saved by faith (as Jews also are - see Acts 15:11) - but the kind of faith that we are saved by is the kind of faith that produces works. Faith without works doesn't save anyone, grace or no grace.

 

[FHII]

You are absolutely right H. Richard! Not popular, but it is truth. I do believe all Christians must do "good works", which pertains to loving God and the brethren (James even mentioned it and called it the royal law). But any works that can be seen of men are works of the flesh and not evidence of faith.

 

[Deborah_]

I do believe all Christians must do "good works", which pertains to loving God and the brethren (James even mentioned it and called it the royal law).

Exactly. The 'works' that James talks about are not the 'works of the law' that Paul condemns, but those that fulfil Jesus' command to love God and our neighbours (Mark 12:29-31).

But any works that can be seen of men are works of the flesh and not evidence of faith.

How can we love our neighbours without anyone noticing?

And didn't Jesus tell us to "let your light shine before others, that they may see your good deeds and glorify your Father in heaven"? (Matthew 5:16)

The works of the flesh are those done in order to receive praise from others (Matthew 6:1).

 

[H. Richard]

This thread asks the question, "who is the book of James written to"? It is not about a person doing good works because they love others. However, I have found that if you bring up this subject it always gets back to works of the flesh.

The only real good works that a child of God can do it to teach the gospel of grace; the only gospel that can save a person in this age of grace. Most are not able to do this because they do not really study enough to be grounded in the faith. They can tell others all about not sinning, loving others, and works of charity but can not tell others about the gospel of grace. Loving others, works of charity are not the gospel. The gospel is about what God has done for mankind, not what mankind does.

 

[H. Richard]

You are absolutely right H. Richard! Not popular, but it is truth. I do believe all Christians must do "good works", which pertains to loving God and the brethren (James even mentioned it and called it the royal law). But any works that can be seen of men are works of the flesh and not evidence of faith.

Replace the word "must" with the word "will" and you got it right. Ha! Ha!

 

[FHII]

The only real good works that a child of God can do it to teach the gospel of grace; the only gospel that can save a person in this age of grace. Most are not able to do this because they do not really study enough to be grounded in the faith. They can tell others all about not sinning, loving others, and works of charity but can not tell others about the gospel of grace. Loving others, works of charity are not the gospel. The gospel is about what God has done for mankind, not what mankind does.

Replace the word "teach" with "teach, hear and support" and you got it right. Ha, ha!

 

[FHII]

Exactly. The 'works' that James talks about are not the 'works of the law' that Paul condemns, but those that fulfil Jesus' command to love God and our neighbours (Mark 12:29-31).


How can we love our neighbours without anyone noticing?

And didn't Jesus tell us to "let your light shine before others, that they may see your good deeds and glorify your Father in heaven"? (Matthew 5:16)

The works of the flesh are those done in order to receive praise from others (Matthew 6:1).

Jesus said "let your light shine" in the same sermon as he said don't give, pray or fast to be seen of men. So, obviously, there is a different point than what it appears to be. But its beyond the scope of this thread.

 

[Dan57]

James 2:20-21
20 But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead?

It sounds like it was written directly to me.

 

[Barrd]

Did you know that the New Covenant was actually given to the House of Israel?

Jer 31:31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:

Not a part of the House of Israel or the House of Judah? The New Covenant is not for you.

Unless you have, maybe, been "grafted in"...but if that is the case, you must remember that you do not bear the root....but the root bears you.

Rom 11:18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.

But I don't worry myself, trying to figure all that out. I'm not looking for some note from the teacher, to excuse me from doing the good works God created me to do.

For me, it is quite simple.

Jesus says:

Joh 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

I love Him. Therefore, I will strive to keep His commandments.

 

[FHII]

I'd like to offer a new point in this discussion. James said in verse 2:18 he would show his faith by his works.

This is at odds with what paul said in heb 11:1 amongst other places. But it is undeniably opposite of the practices preached by Jesus in the first part of matthew 6. Jesus said don't let your prayer, giving and fasting be known to men.

Of course, deborah brought up the point about letting our light shine, so I will acknowledge it.

Honest. I like james. And if you take what he says spiritually, its ok and it works. But he wasn't preaching the same message as Paul, and its clear he picked his audience.

 

[Barrd]

I'd like to offer a new point in this discussion. James said in verse 2:18 he would show his faith by his works.

This is at odds with what paul said in heb 11:1 amongst other places.

Did Paul actually write Hebrews? Some say yes, some say no....
Ahh, well....so what does the verse in question actually say?

Heb 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

Uh...what? Okay, maybe I'm missing something here....what does this have to do with works?

If we read through the chapter, we will find many examples of great men and women of God who showed their faith by their works.
Here are just a few:

Heb 11:4 By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts: and by it he being dead yet speaketh.
Heb 11:5 By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.
Heb 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.
Heb 11:7 By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith.
Heb 11:8 By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.

This is the famous "Hall of Faith". We see that these men and women didn't just sit around chanting "I have faith. I have faith. I have faith." Not a bit of it. In each and every cases, their faith was working faith.

But it is undeniably opposite of the practices preached by Jesus in the first part of matthew 6. Jesus said don't let your prayer, giving and fasting be known to men.

I think what Jesus means here is not to make a big show of your good works, the way some folks do. We are still to feed the hungry, house the homeless, clothe the naked, visit the sick, etc....but we are to do what is needful quietly, without a lot of fanfare.

Of course, deborah brought up the point about letting our light shine, so I will acknowledge it.

If you are lucky enough to know one of those very special Christian ladies named "Deborah", you should always listen to her.
Especially if she was born in October...

Honest. I like james. And if you take what he says spiritually, its ok and it works. But he wasn't preaching the same message as Paul, and its clear he picked his audience.

I think Paul has been woefully misunderstood.

What was Paul's opinion of God's law?

Rom 7:12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.

Did Paul, himself, keep the law?


Rom 7:14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
Rom 7:15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.
Rom 7:16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.
Rom 7:17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
Rom 7:18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
Rom 7:19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.

Well, he certainly tried to, bless his heart.

And that is what grace is all about....

 

[H. Richard]

Well, he certainly tried to, bless his heart.

And that is what grace is all about....

I disagree. Grace is not about a person trying not to sin. Grace is all about Jesus' shed blood paying for all the sins of mankind. Jesus did for mankind what mankind could not do for him/her self. He kept the law and paid mankind's sin debt. Grace is all about the fact that God, Himself, paid for every man's/woman's sins on the cross. Jesus has made a way for the ungodly to be saved.

Grace is not about what mankind does. Grace is about what Jesus did on the cross. All glory belongs to Him.

 

[Barrd]

I disagree. Grace is not about a person trying not to sin. Grace is all about Jesus' shed blood paying for all the sins of mankind. Jesus did for mankind what mankind could not do for him/her self. He kept the law and paid mankind's sin debt. Grace is all about the fact that God, Himself, paid for every man's/woman's sins on the cross. Jesus has made a way for the ungodly to be saved.

Grace is not about what mankind does. Grace is about what Jesus did on the cross. All glory belongs to Him.

You misunderstood me, King.
Of course, it was nearly 1 o'clock in the morning, and I guess I wasn't very clear.

I mean that each one of us struggles with sin, as Paul did. Try as we might, we cannot keep the law perfectly. We have earned the death penalty for our petty sins.
But Jesus could keep the law. He did, as you said, what we could not do for ourselves...and He paid our sin debt.

So, when we find ourselves struggling, as Paul did in the passage I quoted...that is when we need God's grace.
And that is what Jesus gave His life for.

My fault, King....I should have made myself clear. Sorry.

 

[H. Richard]

You misunderstood me, King.
Of course, it was nearly 1 o'clock in the morning, and I guess I wasn't very clear.

I mean that each one of us struggles with sin, as Paul did. Try as we might, we cannot keep the law perfectly. We have earned the death penalty for our petty sins.
But Jesus could keep the law. He did, as you said, what we could not do for ourselves...and He paid our sin debt.

So, when we find ourselves struggling, as Paul did in the passage I quoted...that is when we need God's grace.
And that is what Jesus gave His life for.

My fault, King....I should have made myself clear. Sorry.

I have re-read some of your work here on the forum and I see that I have mis-understood you on several posts.

After hearing so many preachers teaching that God has changed them and they no longer sin (except for the smaller ones) I took a very close look at my own life and heart. Out of the same heart comes blessings and curses and I can not control many of them. When reading Romans 7 I took a closer look at verse 25 and the last 7 words of that verse and realized the truth behind the fact that God has made a way for the ungodly to be saved. I am just like Paul a man that God reached down and saved through His (God's) grace. Now I no longer place any trust in my ability to keep from sinning in my mind.

Phil 3:3
3 For we are the circumcision, who worship God in the Spirit, rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh,
NKJV


Rom 7:25
25 I thank God — through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin.
NKJV

By the way, why do you call me king. I wish you wouldn't do that.

 

[FHII]

Did Paul actually write Hebrews? Some say yes, some say no....
Ahh, well....so what does the verse in question actually say?

Heb 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

Uh...what? Okay, maybe I'm missing something here....what does this have to do with works?

If we read through the chapter, we will find many examples of great men and women of God who showed their faith by their works.
Here are just a few:

Heb 11:4 By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts: and by it he being dead yet speaketh.
Heb 11:5 By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.
Heb 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.
Heb 11:7 By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith.
Heb 11:8 By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.

This is the famous "Hall of Faith". We see that these men and women didn't just sit around chanting "I have faith. I have faith. I have faith." Not a bit of it. In each and every cases, their faith was working faith.

I think what Jesus means here is not to make a big show of your good works, the way some folks do. We are still to feed the hungry, house the homeless, clothe the naked, visit the sick, etc....but we are to do what is needful quietly, without a lot of fanfare.


If you are lucky enough to know one of those very special Christian ladies named "Deborah", you should always listen to her.
Especially if she was born in October...


I think Paul has been woefully misunderstood.

What was Paul's opinion of God's law?

Rom 7:12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.

Did Paul, himself, keep the law?

Rom 7:14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
Rom 7:15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.
Rom 7:16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.
Rom 7:17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
Rom 7:18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
Rom 7:19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.

Well, he certainly tried to, bless his heart.

And that is what grace is all about....

Concerning Hebrews 11:

No one knows for sure who wrote the book. I see a lot of Paul's tendencies in it, so I tend to attribute it to him.

Looking at the 11th chapter I just saw something I haven't seen before. Those champions of faith never set out to do anything to be seen of men. It was always between them and God. Now, when Moses choses his hebrew ties over his Egyptian ties, a whole nation saw it. But it was always what God saw. Moses didn't do that to be seen as a champion to his people.

But that's not the big point I saw and what ch 11 is talking about. These champs acted in faith with understanding of and seeing "the promise" afar. They heard the promise, saw it afar off, but never received it as we have. I do believe they have it now (eternal life), but Jesus and what he brought was that promise.

If that sounds wacky to you, considet it and now reread hebrews 11.

Paul:

I certainly don't claim to understand everything Paul said. But I do understand he saw the law as good. But he also saw it as an impossible code to keep in the flesh.

Paul also preached a moral code, but it never trumped his message of grace thriugh faith. He said all things are lawful, but I will not be brought under their power. Peter said it better, IMO when he said don't use grace as a cloak of malice.

But Paul understood that even if he tried (and he did and was well known amongst the Pharisees as being at the tip of the zealous list) his trying was filthy rags.

On Jesus and Matt 6:

Of course it was his point to not make it a big deal to the public. He goes further, though. He say to conceal it. He says don't let anyone see it, and don't even let your left hand know what your right hand does.

This is why when I give in the offering, I wear a glove on my left hand.

Eph 2 says grace is not of works lest any should boast. Here's the thing: if I do something for God and don't tell anyone, thats good. I'm doing it to please god alone. But if someone unaware sees me, they can tell everyone what I did. Or, they can tell everyone how nuch more they did.

My point, if someone sees me do a good work... there is opportunity for boasting. They can boast for me, against me or for themselves.

On deborah and october births:

Debs is a fine person and the greatest woman in the world (my wife) was born in october! Me? I'm a cancer!

And no... I don't really wear a glove on my left hand!

 

[FHII]

By the way, why do you call me king. I wish you wouldn't do that.

Yea, that does come off as creepy. But Barrd did mention she was burning the midnight oil. One possible explanation is that there is a member that goes by KJV. she may have thought she was talking to him.

 

[Wormwood]

In a Sunday School class a statement made by James in the book of James was referenced.

James 2:20-21
20 But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead?

No one in the class disagreed with this statement but I should have. I do not believe that a statement made by James, to the Jews who were under the law of Moses, applies to us today who are under grace. I do not believe the book of James was written to both the Jews under law (James 1:1) and Gentiles who are not under the law. If it was then the Holy Spirit was in error when He had James write chapter 1, verse 1. This verse, in plain words, tell us who the book was written to. To apply what is said in James to those under grace is, in my opinion, a false teaching.

Sorry, I dont have time to read through the entire conversation, so I apologize if some of this is redundant.

1. James is writing to Christians. Gentiles who put faith in the Messiah, Jesus, are grafted into Israel while Israelites who do not believe in their Messiah are cut off. The NT authors are incredibly clear on this issue. If a person misses this, they miss the real significance of the New Covenant and how the broken body of Christ brings peace between Jews and Gentiles.

2. If James was writing to Christians, then he is writing to those who are not under law.

3. James does not contradict Paul. Paul teaches that faith plus works does not equal justification. James teaches that faith without works does not equal justification. Both affirm that a faith that works equals justification.
Paul was dealing with those who thought the cross was not enough and things like circumcision, feasts, Sabbath days and so forth needed to be added to the cross to provide justification. Paul adamantly denies this.

James was dealing with Christians who thought cognitive acceptence of Jesus was sufficient and a person could continue living in sin, judgment and selfishness. James adamantly denies this (Paul also denies this in certain areas of his letters... “But that is not the way you learned Christ!— assuming that you have heard about him and were taught in him, as the truth is in Jesus, to put off your old self, which belongs to your former manner of life and is corrupt through deceitful desires,” (Ephesians 4:20–22, ESV)

So, there is no contradiction here. James teaches that mental cognition is not enough (even the demons have this). Paul teaches that faith plus works of the law is too much. Both teach that faith that is expressed in love and good deeds which puts off the old way of living is "the truth" in Jesus.

 

[ATP]

Both teach that faith that is expressed in love and good deeds which puts off the old way of living is "the truth" in Jesus.

Thus the perseverance of the saints..

Eph 1:13-14 NIV And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, 14who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory.

1 Pet 1:23 NIV For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, through the living and enduring word of God.

1 John 3:9 NIV No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God's seed remains in them; they cannot go on sinning, because they have been born of God.

2 John 1:2 NIV because of the truth, which lives in us and will be with us forever:

 

[Wormwood]

ATP, this is not the topic of this thread. Let's not derail it.