Who is John talking about.........
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bbyrd009
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yes, and i say again that that battle is over, and has already been won, not bc that is my idea but bc that is apparently what Scripture says about that. Jesus is not fighting any battle against satan, satan has already been defeated, and what you would be described Scripturally as doing is "boxing at the air" i guess wadr. Or maybe not, but that is for you to decide, do plenty of it myself understand, and i dont really know about your case, based upon some light forum interaction and all, which may not be very representative right, we tend to come here and post in ideals prolly
Waiting on him
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This showdown was finished a Calvary when God placed Him up there in the religious capital of the word 2k years ago.
Places Him there like a placard, casting down all principalities and every vain imagination.
Waiting on him
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I feel as if I could make an strong argument it was accomplished in His temptation in the wilderness.
He was tempted of the same things we all are tempted of, but in denial of the flesh, hunger, renown, etc. the victory was already won.
Oh, desiring the temporal.
He was tempted of the same things we all are tempted of, but in denial of the flesh, hunger, renown, etc. the victory was already won.
Oh, desiring the temporal.
Waiting on him
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VictoryinJesus
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get what you are saying. Get and experience the same things you described in your post. Not saying otherwise. But it is same as the filthy rags that is quoted often, yet 2 Timothy 2:21 doesn’t speak of filthy rags, unless I’ve misunderstood. Even the command to walk in the Spirit...no longer “alone”. Same as Romans 3:12 says all have gone out of the way. Then He says “I am the way” and says walk in Me. John 12:24 you didn’t answer ...the same one that said “why call me good” ...did He go into the ground and die and no longer abides alone but brings forth much fruit? You said you’ve left the world that you may Live ...is that not leaving darkness into Light? Quotes such as “filthy rags” and “all have gone out the way” is returning (imo) to death more abundant. Do get what you are saying so mainly asking if He abides alone since He did go in the ground and die and bears much fruit. Same as we quote “pick up your cross” and lose your life that you may gain Life and the: let us move on to perfection. Not speaking of before but whatsoever is born of God “walk in the Spirit” and He will give you light...get walking in the flesh is darkness and experience it, but also no longer abide alone. “Abide in Me.”
bbyrd009
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if you could rephrase the q more succinctly, im not getting the perceived dichotomy yet i guess sorry
Why are you trying to change what Scripture says? The Man of Sin, the Son of Perdition, that Wicked, the Beast, the Little Horn, the King of Fierce Countenance, are all references to an INDIVIDUAL. Just as the Lord Jesus Christ was an individual, the Antichrist will be an individual who will present himself as *the true Christ" or *the true Messiah*.
I wasn't asking people to look at things based largely on how they affect them. I'm not sure that salvation would have been lost. I think God has back-up plans; but that wasn't what I was driving at. I was asking if Jesus could have become "a beast that came out of the water" by following Satan and betraying the Father.
I suggest that Revelation is a book relevant to everyone who reads it. It is about more than future events. Often it can be about the here and now. Blessed is the person who reads it and keeps the sayings -- true nearly two thousand years ago -- and true today. I think we see "minor" versions of the beast of the water in every generation. Thank goodness, most of them are not gifted spiritually.
I am talking about people who have this or that spiritual ability and then sell out to Satan. Some are like Jesus -- they're baptized and the Holy Spirit descends -- and when the time comes for them to face temptation, they succumb because they crave power or money more than the kingdom of God. Some have the ability to perform miracles; and they mislead others through signs and wonders. Yes, we can be grateful they aren't that gifted spiritually. Satan can use them, but the truth is they aren't that powerful. Ultimately a truly powerful person will rise up out of the water with the ability to do great signs and wonders. For now, never mind him -- look at the minor ones already around.
The passage can also be read as a warning to the individual Christian not to sell his gifts that way to the Devil.
The thing is that we can have difficulty figuring out what's what. Satan can plant ideas in minds and some people believe they're their ideas. On the other hand, some people think bad thoughts on their own and blame Satan for them.
Are we talking about salvation, or perfection, ...salvation.
No by God's Law anymore, ...why are you bringing up politics?
You were guessing on this? Did you realize what you said? Yes, everyone knows that the Pharisees & Sadducees were indignant towards him, but they were unable to lay a single viable charge against him, during his trial. They were full of hot air and jealousy.
So no, he did not break any Laws, he simply demonstrated the full meaning of, for example, the Sabbath, by showing that it was ok to transgress the Sabbath, in the case of where human life or health was at risk, as God had always intended.
bbyrd009
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which to you currently means that you will become an immortal after you have died for holding certain beliefs now, or no?
well i beg to differ, our laws are derived from the same decalogue number 1, and 2 we are assured that the law has not passed away anyway?
we are allowed hindsight into the matter, but in the moment these were not so clear i guess, didnt help Jesus any right? At the time? Yes, He broke laws, according to those in authority, who make the laws, is possibly a point that ends up being missed there
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a man who is dead and raised into the knew of His life, no longer has a cross to carry. You dont see Jesus carrying a cross anymore...
Well, everything in life can be construed as an analogy, metaphor or a figure or typology. That's too easy, and goes without saying. And this is the precarious aspect of biblical hermeneutics & exegesis, if one establishes as a hermeneutic principle that a certain amount, or all, of scripture, allows a non-literal interpretation, then without further guidelines and disciplined exegesis, it turns into a free-for-all.
So, yes, you're right, if one wants to, the passages in Revelation can have multiple allusions, as in the Beast coming out of the water can mean for us not to sell-out to the Devil. But that type of frivolous interpretation is for the inexperienced. The mature strive to find the precise meaning that God intended, and all the implications, ...but to a profound degree. As in, not superficially, like 'Jesus sat on the green grass and taught the people', is supposed to mean that the people were green-behind-the-ears. As true as it may have been, it's too easy, and too frivolous, and leads to unbridled and perverse interpretations.
So, no, Jesus could never have followed the beast, ever. Jesus attained perfection in all wisdom and actions, in that, a wise man never succumbs to depravity, hedonism and wickedness (don't even try to ask me why). Perfection is also a sign, and primarily above all things, that Jesus loved God with all his heart mind and soul. Thus, there is no reason to believe that Jesus was that stupid, shallow, reprobate and reckless, to commit such a wayward and sinful act, ever, ever.
Sinners who repent in the name of Jesus Christ will receive eternal salvation.
The Levitical Law is not binding on either Jews, Gentiles or Christians, in order to receive the aforementioned salvation. It's called Sola Fida.
There are universal laws that are still considered sins in God's eyes, yes. Some belong to the decalogue, but I don't believe that the Sabbath is still binding in any manner. Either way, you're right about actions that still constitute sin, I agree 100%, I was just saying that this will not disqualify you from heaven, necessarily. It can, but we don't define salvation in such a manner, unless we're discussing the authenticity of one's faith.
Possibly the point gets missed, but many theologians recognize Jesus as a rebel, as myself, and you apparently. But, not a rebel to God, obviously, ...which is what you initially stated.
Jesus defied the traditions of the Pharisees, Saducees and Sanhedrin, and their beliefs and understanding of the law. But, he didn't break any of God's laws, and, for the sake of argument, he didn't break any Roman laws that would have made him an outlaw, either.
bbyrd009
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which according to your def of "eternal" means that they will become immortals, right?
Eternal as forever
yes, ive read the brochure
i dont have much confidence in Paul's wolves, sorry
he said with complete confidence? :)
ah
i am? it wont? this heaven is a future place that you might attain only after you have died, right?
you lost me, sorry. dont most ppl define salvation in just that manner?
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According to your idea then, he was not seriously tempted. I tend to think he could have but chose correctly and thus deserves credit for overcoming real temptation. Your idea almost seems to deprive him of free will, making it sound as if life was easy for him. I would say Jesus deserves credit for loving God and choosing correctly in all his temptations. I think he was tempted more than we are and in more things. I can't excuse my own failings by saying Jesus could do it because he really couldn't be tempted and couldn't have failed.
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What about Simon Magus? I don't think he was THE beast that comes up from the water, but he probably wanted to be as big and powerful as the prophesied one will be. He was bad enough. Notice how he went bad after being baptized. To me, he's a variation on the beast of the water, of how some Christians can go seriously wrong.
Acts 8:9 But there was a certain man, called Simon, which beforetime in the same city used sorcery, and bewitched the people of Samaria, giving out that himself was some great one:
10 To whom they all gave heed, from the least to the greatest, saying, This man is the great power of God.
11 And to him they had regard, because that of long time he had bewitched them with sorceries.
12 But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women.
13 Then Simon himself believed also: and when he was baptized, he continued with Philip, and wondered, beholding the miracles and signs which were done.
14 Now when the apostles which were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent unto them Peter and John:
15 Who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Ghost:
16 (For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.)
17 Then laid they their hands on them, and they received the Holy Ghost.
18 And when Simon saw that through laying on of the apostles' hands the Holy Ghost was given, he offered them money,
19 Saying, Give me also this power, that on whomsoever I lay hands, he may receive the Holy Ghost.
20 But Peter said unto him, Thy money perish with thee, because thou hast thought that the gift of God may be purchased with money.
21 Thou hast neither part nor lot in this matter: for thy heart is not right in the sight of God.
22 Repent therefore of this thy wickedness, and pray God, if perhaps the thought of thine heart may be forgiven thee.
23 For I perceive that thou art in the gall of bitterness, and in the bond of iniquity.
24 Then answered Simon, and said, Pray ye to the Lord for me, that none of these things which ye have spoken come upon me.
Acts 8:9 But there was a certain man, called Simon, which beforetime in the same city used sorcery, and bewitched the people of Samaria, giving out that himself was some great one:
10 To whom they all gave heed, from the least to the greatest, saying, This man is the great power of God.
11 And to him they had regard, because that of long time he had bewitched them with sorceries.
12 But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women.
13 Then Simon himself believed also: and when he was baptized, he continued with Philip, and wondered, beholding the miracles and signs which were done.
14 Now when the apostles which were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent unto them Peter and John:
15 Who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Ghost:
16 (For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.)
17 Then laid they their hands on them, and they received the Holy Ghost.
18 And when Simon saw that through laying on of the apostles' hands the Holy Ghost was given, he offered them money,
19 Saying, Give me also this power, that on whomsoever I lay hands, he may receive the Holy Ghost.
20 But Peter said unto him, Thy money perish with thee, because thou hast thought that the gift of God may be purchased with money.
21 Thou hast neither part nor lot in this matter: for thy heart is not right in the sight of God.
22 Repent therefore of this thy wickedness, and pray God, if perhaps the thought of thine heart may be forgiven thee.
23 For I perceive that thou art in the gall of bitterness, and in the bond of iniquity.
24 Then answered Simon, and said, Pray ye to the Lord for me, that none of these things which ye have spoken come upon me.
Yes
Paul's wolves were extremely reliable. Although considered wild by nature, if fed regularly and trained properly, wolves can be trusted and be extremely disciplined. I won't guarantee that they'll fetch a ball every time that one is thrown to them, or not chase a fox when told not to, but extremely reliable all the same.
yes, yes
No heaven is a place that you attain after collecting enough air miles. I forget the exact number, but somewhere near 144,000 (i think that i read it in the Book of Revelation somewhere?).
No salvation is defined by Sola Fida, that's German for crossing one's fingers.
How in the world did the topic just change from you saying that Jesus could've followed the Beast, to me saying that he couldn't because he 'attained' perfection? Jesus acquired perfection by being tempted and resisting, for with many tears and supplications he prayed to God for strength and wisdom. My point was, once perfect, on what grounds would he succumb to sin, if he didn't during his many trials and tribulations? Perfection means not seduced by sin. Sin is not attractive to a wise person, that's my point.
Now if I'm misunderstanding you, maybe it is stemming from the extremely hypothetical nature of your question?
There might be a chronological issue that is required to clarify. Could Jesus have failed while on earth, yes, ...but not after reaching perfection.
Question lies, when did he reach perfection (after he obeyed unto death-the cross, or previously). And, when do you mean follow the beast (at the end times, or during his temptation)
Maybe I didn't follow you 100%?
