Who founded your church?

[Renniks]

He who believes and is BAPTIZED will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned.

Jesus does say, “Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved", but Jesus did not say that whoever believes is baptized in order to be saved. It’s so easy to take this one verse and rip it out of its context, and then build a doctrine around it…maybe even a church, but taking text out of the proper context can lead to error. We can take one verse out of context and create a pretext, and a false one at that, and many have with Mark 16:16...it simply doesn't say baptism saves.

 

[Renniks]

22:16
And now why do you wait? Rise and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on his name.'

Paul tells that he did not receive or hear the Gospel from Ananias, but rather he heard it directly from Christ. Galatians 1:11-12 says, "For I would have you know, brethren, that the gospel which was preached by me is not according to man. For I neither received it from man, nor was I taught it, but I received it through a revelation of Jesus Christ." So, Paul heard and believed in Christ on the road to Damascus. Paul had already believed in Christ when Ananias came to pray for him to receive his sight (Acts 9:17).

It also should be noted that, at the time when Ananias prayed for him to receive his sight, Paul also received the Holy Spirit (Acts 9:17)—this was before he was baptized (Acts 9:18) Paul was already saved before being baptized.

 

[Renniks]

As to your perversion of Acts 10:43 - "Believing" in Christ means OBEYING His commands.
It doesn't mean that we saimply "believe" with our minds - but by the way we LIVE our lives.

John 14:15
"If you love me, keep my commands.

Matt 7:21
"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but ONLY THE ONE WHO DOES THE WILL OF MY FATHER who is in heaven.

Your obedience doesn't save you and these verses never hint that it does. Weak argument.

 

[Brakelite]

Hmmmmmmm, I guess ALL of those little Jewish babies went straight to Hell after being circumcised and entered the Covenant with God in the OT - since THEY didn't make the decision to enter the Covenant in the first place.

It's a crime against GOD Himself that anti-Catholics discard His little ones because you FAIL to grasp get the Gospel message - because Jesus didn't:
Matt. 18:3
“Truly, I say to you, unless you turn and become like children, you will NEVER enter the kingdom of heaven.

Jesus NEVER said that unless we become like "ADULTS", we'll never enter the kingdom of heaven - DID He?

That's a serious response,? I mean. Seriously??

Hmmmmm, 800 years of untold THOUSANDS of Franciscan priests, brothers and nuns who have taken the vow of poverty, lived lives of prayer and fasting for the edification of the Body of Christ - ALL following the example of Francis of Assissi.

How edifying for the church indeed were those Franciscan priests who forced Serbs to convert in Yugoslavia as Nazi puppets within the Ustachi.

 

[Brakelite]

what about that of Augustine and Aquinas and so many great saints

many young Virgin martyrs like Agnes, Cecilia, Lucy and hundreds of other

example

A person woke up early walked miles to town and found the governor and upbraided him for demanding that Christians sacrifice to thier idols, said they are only demons, was tortured and martyred for the faith of Jesus Christ!
And she was a girl and only 12 years old!
A glorious Virgin-martyr in holy mother church!

There were hundreds of thousands of non Catholics throughout history that also died/ murdered/tortured because of their faith in Jesus. Oh. And they were murdered/ tortured by Catholics... Among others. And Thomas Aquinas, a "doctor" of the church, wrote much which was used to justify said persecutions by the church against non Catholics. For goodness sake. Open your eyes. How can a church which for 1700 years practiced and exercised in accordance with her own policies, the killing of opposition and continue to claim to be God's church??? How can a church which actively and with glee murder opposition and believe the gates of hell haven't overcome it?

 

[DNB]

This is the same erroneous thinking that makes many people believe that ALL people should be married - even though the Bible itself says that NOT everybody should be married (1 Cor. 7:32-38).

Self deprivation, which Paul referred to as mortification of the flesh (Rom. 8:13) for the sake of the of God is a righteous endeavor . . .
Luke 7:33-36
For John the Baptist has come eating no bread and drinking no wine, and you say, ‘He has a demon!’ The Son of Man has come eating and drinking, and you say, ‘Behold, a gluttonous man and a drunkard, a friend of tax collectors and sinners!’ Yet wisdom is vindicated by all her children.”

2 Timothy 2:3-6
Suffer hardship with me, as a good soldier of Christ Jesus.

Matt. 6:5-6
“And when you pray, you must not be like the hypocrites. For they love to stand and pray in the synagogues and at the street corners, that they may be seen by others. Truly, I say to you, they have received their reward. But when you pray, go into your room and shut the door and pray to your Father who is in secret. And your Father who sees in secret will reward you.

No, not all people should be married, as Christ said himself, some are eunuchs, some are married, some force their celibacy, etc.. to each his own calling. And, we all appreciate the devotion and discipline required in remaining celibate because your desires have transcended the flesh.
EVEN MORE REASON THAT YOU SHOULD NOT REMAIN IN HIDING! We need strong people like that out in the world denouncing the passions of the flesh, and imparting the wisdom that they've learnt from their trials, to others. There is no room for monasteries and nunneries for God's people, that is a form of selfishness and cowardice.

 

[Marymog]

Yes, you're right MM, and there was undeniably sufficient evidence at that time to conclude that the 1st century churches described in the epistles, were apostolic. But, during the subsequent centuries, I do not believe whatsoever, that the same testimony that substantiated the NT Churches' authenticity, can be said of any of the Churches that followed their expansion.
This is where the crux of my argument lies, we see nothing but an infiltration of wickedness and heresy in all churches, that not one of them can contend to be faithfully apostolic. I am not looking to be defiant or contentious, and I would be more than ecstatic to know that there was a place to go where the unadulterated truth has been preserved from Christ's time. But, sadly and somewhat discouragingly, there is just no evidence of that anywhere, not in its doctrinal entirety.

So, attempting to speak as objectively as possible, and not trying to be a renegade, I am left to trust only my own judgement based on the readings from the Bible. This does not preclude the desire or need to constantly consult other theologians and apologist's perspectives, on various subject matters of theology and from all denomination and countries. The latter part is mandatory, actually - no one is an island.

Thank you, I know there is nothing I can say that will change your mind,

I am just trying to figure out why you trust your own judgment on what heresy is and how you know what the unadulterated truth is. You seem to place everyone else on an island and yourself on the mainland, But that’s just my opinion. You theory that The Church fell into heresy and stopped teaching the truth or sound doctrine after the first century suggest that Satan prevailed over The Church. I don’t believe he did.

Mary

 

[mjrhealth]

I notice you didn't mention:
Lutherans - and their offshoots
Anglicans - and their offshoots
Baptists - and their offshoots
Methodists - and their offshoots

"Non-Denominational Evangelical" sects - and their offshoots

And the Pseudo-Christian sects like:
YOUR Shim Ra Na cult (aggressivechristianity.net)
Christadelphians
Oneness Pentecostals
Unitarians

And the list goes on and on and on . . .

Did you want me to list them all, they are all daughters of that great Harlot that you worship so well.

 

[Brakelite]

Thank you, I know there is nothing I can say that will change your mind,

I am just trying to figure out why you trust your own judgment on what heresy is and how you know what the unadulterated truth is. You seem to place everyone else on an island and yourself on the mainland, But that’s just my opinion. You theory that The Church fell into heresy and stopped teaching the truth or sound doctrine after the first century suggest that Satan prevailed over The Church. I don’t believe he did.

Mary

You can't help yourself can you Mary. You constantly deny that we all can have an individual relationship with Jesus and it is His judgement, not our own, that we trust in. And yes, sometimes we disagree on what we understand. But none of us believe we are infallible. Sometimes we get stuff wrong... Some of us get it very wrong. But we don't answer to you. Our to your church. And our own churches don't throw us out because we disagree with one or two nuances in belief. None of it is dogmatic. And my faith in Jesus is such that before He comes, there will only be two sides in this controversy. Babylon the Great, known for its confusion and madness inducing wine. The other side... Those that keep the commandments of God and have the faith and testimony of Jesus. (Revelation 12:17, 14:12. ) That remnant will be the minority, not a global majority lording their authority over everyone.
Why is it so difficult to accept that a child of God can have a genuine experiential relationship his/her Father? Is it because your pope warned against it?

 

[theefaith]

It's not divinely inspired.

the scriptures are inspired cause they are God breathed!

the apostles are also God breathed
Jn 20:21-23

 

[theefaith]

There were hundreds of thousands of non Catholics throughout history that also died/ murdered/tortured because of their faith in Jesus. Oh. And they were murdered/ tortured by Catholics... Among others. And Thomas Aquinas, a "doctor" of the church, wrote much which was used to justify said persecutions by the church against non Catholics. For goodness sake. Open your eyes. How can a church which for 1700 years practiced and exercised in accordance with her own policies, the killing of opposition and continue to claim to be God's church??? How can a church which actively and with glee murder opposition and believe the gates of hell haven't overcome it?

heresy is error
Contrary to the truth and therefore cos the loss of the only of the salvation souls

it therefore must be punished with excessive rigor and death

there is OT precedent Elijah killed the false prophets etc.

Why does the church condemn Bible societies? Not cos they promote the Bible, but cos they are sources of error and heresy
Inter Praecipuas - Papal Encyclicals

 

[BreadOfLife]

Not a reference to baptism...
For example, Psalm 51:2 asks God to, "Wash me thoroughly from my iniquity, and cleanse me from my sin!" Even in the New Testament, water is sometimes used in reference to the idea of spiritual cleansing or purifying. Titus 3:5, for example, says, "he saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit." Here both washing and the Spirit are paired together just as Jesus does in John 3:5.

WRONG.

Nicodemus asked Jesus how a man is born AGAIN. Jesus responded:
John 3:5
“Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born qof water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God."

- In the first chapter of John's Gospel, we read about the Baptism of Christ - and WHAT do we see?
WATER and the SPIRIT.

- In the second chapter, we see Jesus at the Wedding at Cana - and AGAIN, we see the transformative use of water.

- In Chapter three, we see Him telling Nicodemus that he must be born again of WATER and SPIRIT.
And WHAT does Jesus do after leaving Nicodemus?? He and the Apostles go BAPTIZING (John 3:22).

The first three chapters of John's Gospel are literally DRENCHED in the transformative water of BAPTISM.

 

[BreadOfLife]

Jesus does say, “Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved", but Jesus did not say that whoever believes is baptized in order to be saved. It’s so easy to take this one verse and rip it out of its context, and then build a doctrine around it…maybe even a church, but taking text out of the proper context can lead to error. We can take one verse out of context and create a pretext, and a false one at that, and many have with Mark 16:16...it simply doesn't say baptism saves.

The fact that you don't see the textual acrobatics that you must perform in order to deny Baptism in this verse speaks VOLUMES about your lack of kbowledge of Scripture . . .

 

[BreadOfLife]

Your obedience doesn't save you and these verses never hint that it does. Weak argument.

WRONG again.

Faith is NOT simply "believeing". James tells us that even the DEMONS do that much (James 2:19). Faith is belief + SURRENDER, which includes obedience and DOING the Lord's will (Matt. 7:21). If you don't - then you DON'T have true faith and cannot hope to be saved.

 

[BreadOfLife]

Did you want me to list them all, they are all daughters of that great Harlot that you worship so well.

No - you don't have to list them ALL.
I just wanted to make sure you included your Shim Ra Na cult at aggressivechristianity.net . . .

 

[theefaith]

WRONG.

Nicodemus asked Jesus how a man is born AGAIN. Jesus responded:
John 3:5
“Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born qof water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God."

- In the first chapter of John's Gospel, we read about the Baptism of Christ - and WHAT do we see?
WATER and the SPIRIT.

- In the second chapter, we see Jesus at the Wedding at Cana - and AGAIN, we see the transformative use of water.

- In Chapter three, we see Him telling Nicodemus that he must be born again of WATER and SPIRIT.
And WHAT does Jesus do after leaving Nicodemus?? He and the Apostles go BAPTIZING (John 3:22).

The first three chapters of John's Gospel are literally DRENCHED in the transformative water of BAPTISM.

mans Jn 4:1 disciples made by baptism with Matt 28:19

 

[BreadOfLife]

That's a serious response,? I mean. Seriously??

Yup.

Jewish babies entered the Covenant with God by their PARENTS having them circumcized.
Christians babies ebter the NEW Covenant with God by their PARENTS having them Baptized.

How edifying for the church indeed were those Franciscan priests who forced Serbs to convert in Yugoslavia as Nazi puppets within the Ustachi.

There have been MANY threads about the Church during the time of Nazi Germany on this forum – with MUCH misinformation. Instead of derailing this thread – you can start a new one, where we can talk about the heroic efforts of the Catholic church during the War - including Pius XII’s rescue of thousands of Jews and the Assisi Underground, which was a Franciscan-led rescue of hundreds of Jews.

 

[theefaith]

Yup.

Jewish babies entered the Covenant with God by their PARENTS having them circumcized.
Christians babies ebter the NEW Covenant with God by their PARENTS having them Baptized.

There have been MANY threads about the Church during the time of Nazi Germany on this forum – with MUCH misinformation. Instead of derailing this thread – you can start a new one, where we can talk about the heroic efforts of the Catholic church during the War - including Pius XII’s rescue of thousands of Jews and the Assisi Underground, which was a Franciscan-led rescue of hundreds of Jews.

Pius 11
encyclical mit brennender sorge
Against nazism

Pius 12 smuggled 300K copies in German into nazi Germany

 

[BreadOfLife]

No, not all people should be married, as Christ said himself, some are eunuchs, some are married, some force their celibacy, etc.. to each his own calling. And, we all appreciate the devotion and discipline required in remaining celibate because your desires have transcended the flesh.
EVEN MORE REASON THAT YOU SHOULD NOT REMAIN IN HIDING! We need strong people like that out in the world denouncing the passions of the flesh, and imparting the wisdom that they've learnt from their trials, to others. There is no room for monasteries and nunneries for God's people, that is a form of selfishness and cowardice.

It’s obvious that sacrificing for the Lord is WAY BEYOND your understanding

I suggest you pray about it . . .

 

[theefaith]

It’s obvious that sacrificing for the Lord is WAY BEYOND your understanding

I suggest you pray about it . . .

Most religious are not in seclusion but are working in the world usually amounts the poor, but we need the other too, they pray make reparation and intercede for all