Who founded your church?

[theefaith]

Hopefully not the church Nancy Pelosi and Al Biden attend!

your surprised they are sinners?

 

[theefaith]

Hopefully not the church Nancy Pelosi and Al Biden attend!

what about that of Augustine and Aquinas and so many great saints

many young Virgin martyrs like Agnes, Cecilia, Lucy and hundreds of other

example

A person woke up early walked miles to town and found the governor and upbraided him for demanding that Christians sacrifice to thier idols, said they are only demons, was tortured and martyred for the faith of Jesus Christ!
And she was a girl and only 12 years old!
A glorious Virgin-martyr in holy mother church!

 

[theefaith]

That's from a man-made doctrine, not scripture.

it is divine and catholic faith revealed by God

Why does it have to be scripture?
Is the word of God limited to scripture?

Acts 2:42

 

[BreadOfLife]

Those who hold to the belief that baptism is required for salvation are quick to point to this verse and the fact that it says “be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins,” assuming that the word translated “for” in this verse means “in order to get.” However, in both Greek and English, there are many possible usages of the word “for.”
The Greek word is eis. This is a common Greek word (it is used 1774 times in the New Testament) that is translated many different ways. Like the English word “for” it can have several different meanings. Noted Greek scholars as A.T. Robertson and J.R. Mantey have maintained that the Greek preposition eis in Acts 2:38 should be translated “because of” or “in view of,” and not “in order to,” or “for the purpose of.”
See Matthew 12:41 where the word eis communicates the “result” of an action. In this case it is said that the people of Nineveh “repented at the preaching of Jonah” (the word translated “at” is the same Greek word eis). Clearly, the meaning of this passage is that they repented “because of’” or “as the result of” Jonah’s preaching. In the same way, it would be possible that Acts 2:38 is indeed communicating the fact that they were to be baptized “as the result of” or “because” they already had believed and in doing so had already received forgiveness of their sins.

The fact that baptism is not required to receive forgiveness and the gift of the Holy Spirit should also be evident by simply reading a little farther in the book of Acts. In Acts 10:43, Peter tells Cornelius that “through His name everyone who believes in Him receives forgiveness of sins” (please note that nothing at this point has been mentioned about being baptized, yet Peter connects believing in Christ with the act of receiving forgiveness for sins). The next thing that happens is, having believed Peter’s message about Christ, the “Holy Spirit fell upon all those who were listening to the message” (Acts 10:44). It is only after they had believed, and therefore received forgiveness of their sins and the gift of the Holy Spirit, that Cornelius and his household were baptized.

First of all - Acts 2:38 isn't the ONLY place that speaks of Baptismal regeneration and salvation - so your little argument about the word "for" is moot. Let's take a look at some of the other verses that speak of this - starting with Jesus in John's Gospel:

John 3:5
Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of WATER AND SPIRIT, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.

Hew ALSO says of Baptism:
Mark 16:16
He who believes and is BAPTIZED will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned.

Paul Baptized TWELVE believers who had already received the Baptism of John - but Paul told them that they HAD to be Baptized in Christ:
Acts 19:1-7
While Apollos was at Corinth, Paul passed through the upper country and came to Ephesus. There he found some disciples. And he said to them, "Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?" And they said, "No, we have never even heard that there is a Holy Spirit." And he said, "Into what then were you baptized?" They said, "Into John's baptism." And Paul said, "John baptized with the baptism of repentance, telling the people to believe in the one who was to come after him, that is, Jesus." On hearing this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Spirit came on them; and they spoke with tongues and prophesied.

Baptism WASHES AWAY our sins . . .
Acts 22:16
And now why do you wait? Rise and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on his name.'

Paul taught that were iincorporated into Christ's death and resurrection through BAPTISM:
Rom. 6: 3-4
Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life.

Gal. 3:27
For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

Col. 2:11-12
In him also you were circumcised with a circumcision made without hands, by putting off the body of flesh in the circumcision of Christ; and you were buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through faith in the working of God, who raised him from the dead

Finally - Peter seals the deal by reminding us that Baptism SAVES us . . .
1 Pet. 3:21
BAPTISM, which corresponds to this, NOW SAVES YOU, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a clear conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ

As to your perversion of Acts 10:43 - "Believing" in Christ means OBEYING His commands.
It doesn't mean that we saimply "believe" with our minds - but by the way we LIVE our lives.

John 14:15
"If you love me, keep my commands.

Matt 7:21
"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but ONLY THE ONE WHO DOES THE WILL OF MY FATHER who is in heaven.

 

[DNB]

It might help to think of him as an unbeliever since he is defending the Church of Rome.

I don't mind contention or controversy, it keeps us all on our toes, but repetition, monopolization and obstinance , doesn't make for a very stimulating or productive debate.

 

[theefaith]

I don't mind contention or controversy, it keeps us all on our toes, but repetition, monopolization and obstinance , doesn't make for a very stimulating or productive debate.

So Catholics are not Christians?

 

[Illuminator]

St. Thomas Aquinas taught that water has been a natural sacrament since the dawn of creation.

• In the age of nature—from Adam through the patriarchs—water refreshed and cleansed humankind.
• In the age of Law—the time of Moses—water provided a spiritual rebirth for Israel as the nation began its journey to the promised land.
• With Jesus, however, came the age of grace; and from that time onward water received the divine power of the Word made flesh. Though babies had always been born through “water,” now grown men and women could be “born of water and the Holy Spirit” (John 3:5).

The Church Fathers taught that Jesus, by descending into the waters of the River Jordan, had sanctified the waters of the world. He made them living and life-giving (see John 4:10–14). He made them a source of supernatural regeneration, refreshment, and cleansing.
While we are on earth, we know spiritual things by means of sensible signs. It is only in glory that we will see divine things as they are, without their sacramental veils. According to St. Thomas, water ultimately “signifies the grace of the Holy Spirit . . . For the Holy Spirit is the unfailing fountain from whom all gifts of grace flow.” The book of Revelation confirms this, as it presents the Spirit’s grace as a “river of the water of life, bright as crystal, flowing from the throne of God and of the Lamb” (Rev 22:1).
—from “Signs of Life” at bit.ly/36hUEY9

 

[DNB]

Thank you DNB.

You have been very clear in what you believe and I appreciate clarity. When people use vague words it is easy to read into what one THINKS they are saying. I do that....read into things.... often on this forum and it frustrates people. :cool:

I agree with you and Scripture makes it clear that "wolves infiltrated the Church right from inception". After all, that is what some of the Epistles are written about. They are letters to individual churches because there were divisions amongst them (1 Corinthians 11:18 ) and one of those divisions was settled at the Council of Jerusalem so they wrote a letter to all the churches telling them what they WILL believe on the matter of circumcision.

Scripture also makes it clear that the NT Christians were a 'congregation'! They had a hierarchy and there were men in authority over the rest of the congregation the congregation was instructed to submit too that authority (Acts 20:28, 1 Peter 5:1-4, Hebrews 13:17, 1 Thessalonians 5:12-14 Matthew 18:17 etc). There was no lone wolf "individual level".

Mary

Yes, you're right MM, and there was undeniably sufficient evidence at that time to conclude that the 1st century churches described in the epistles, were apostolic. But, during the subsequent centuries, I do not believe whatsoever, that the same testimony that substantiated the NT Churches' authenticity, can be said of any of the Churches that followed their expansion.
This is where the crux of my argument lies, we see nothing but an infiltration of wickedness and heresy in all churches, that not one of them can contend to be faithfully apostolic. I am not looking to be defiant or contentious, and I would be more than ecstatic to know that there was a place to go where the unadulterated truth has been preserved from Christ's time. But, sadly and somewhat discouragingly, there is just no evidence of that anywhere, not in its doctrinal entirety.

So, attempting to speak as objectively as possible, and not trying to be a renegade, I am left to trust only my own judgement based on the readings from the Bible. This does not preclude the desire or need to constantly consult other theologians and apologist's perspectives, on various subject matters of theology and from all denomination and countries. The latter part is mandatory, actually - no one is an island.

 

[DNB]

Hmmmmm, 800 years of untold THOUSANDS of Franciscan priests, brothers and nuns who have taken the vow of poverty, lived lives of prayer and fasting for the edification of the Body of Christ - ALL following the example of Francis of Assissi.
And YOU claim that he "wasted" his time on practices that didn't edify. I guess Paul (Romans 8:13; see also Col. 3:5, and Gal. 5:24) and John the Baptist (Matt. 3:4) did, too.

"Wasted" time? Again - only if YOU believe that edifying the Body is "wasteful" . . .

Yes, they could've been much more productive had they displayed their convictions in public, and shone their lights against the evils of this world - eg; rebuking and condemning the reprobate.
What a sorrowful and pitiful life spent in isolation praying and fasting towards God, when it's not Him, solitarily, who needs all the attention. Salt left in the cupboard or concealed, can neither season nor sanitize where needed.

 

[DNB]

St. Thomas Aquinas taught that water has been a natural sacrament since the dawn of creation.

• In the age of nature—from Adam through the patriarchs—water refreshed and cleansed humankind.
• In the age of Law—the time of Moses—water provided a spiritual rebirth for Israel as the nation began its journey to the promised land.
• With Jesus, however, came the age of grace; and from that time onward water received the divine power of the Word made flesh. Though babies had always been born through “water,” now grown men and women could be “born of water and the Holy Spirit” (John 3:5).

The Church Fathers taught that Jesus, by descending into the waters of the River Jordan, had sanctified the waters of the world. He made them living and life-giving (see John 4:10–14). He made them a source of supernatural regeneration, refreshment, and cleansing.
While we are on earth, we know spiritual things by means of sensible signs. It is only in glory that we will see divine things as they are, without their sacramental veils. According to St. Thomas, water ultimately “signifies the grace of the Holy Spirit . . . For the Holy Spirit is the unfailing fountain from whom all gifts of grace flow.” The book of Revelation confirms this, as it presents the Spirit’s grace as a “river of the water of life, bright as crystal, flowing from the throne of God and of the Lamb” (Rev 22:1).
—from “Signs of Life” at bit.ly/36hUEY9

Go tell that to the Anabaptists, or those that lived during Noah's time.

 

[DNB]

So Catholics are not Christians?

That wasn't the topic, I was questioning your competency. ...case in point!

 

[mjrhealth]

then who founded the Christian religion

What has christianity got to do with your religion, Christainity is about Christ, not religion, Catholism, SDA JW all the man created denomintaions from that great harlot you serve, all her little jealous daughters trying to improve on mum. That wide path that so many prefer.

 

[BreadOfLife]

Yes, they could've been much more productive had they displayed their convictions in public, and shone their lights against the evils of this world - eg; rebuking and condemning the reprobate.
What a sorrowful and pitiful life spent in isolation praying and fasting towards God, when it's not Him, solitarily, who needs all the attention. Salt left in the cupboard or concealed, can neither season nor sanitize where needed.

There you go again with your failure to understand prayerful intercession (James 5:16, James, 5:13-15, 1 Tim. 2:1, Phil. 1:4, 1 John 5:16, Rev. 5:8) . . .

James 5:16
Confess therefore your sins one to another: and pray one for another, that you may be saved. For the continual prayer of a just man availeth much.

STUDY your Bible before you start with your inane attacks.

 

[DNB]

There you go again with your failure to understand prayerful intercession (James 5:16, James, 5:13-15, 1 Tim. 2:1, Phil. 1:4, 1 John 5:16, Rev. 5:8) . . .

James 5:16
Confess therefore your sins one to another: and pray one for another, that you may be saved. For the continual prayer of a just man availeth much.

STUDY your Bible before you start with your inane attacks.

Understand your Bible before you lead people astray with your demented and heretical perspectives on the wisdom of God.
Just trying to help!

 

[BreadOfLife]

What has christianity got to do with your religion, Christainity is about Christ, not religion, Catholism, SDA JW all the man created denomintaions from that great harlot you serve, all her little jealous daughters trying to improve on mum. That wide path that so many prefer.

I notice you didn't mention:
Lutherans - and their offshoots
Anglicans - and their offshoots
Baptists - and their offshoots
Methodists - and their offshoots
Prebyterians - and their offshoots
"Non-Denominational Evangelical" sects - and their offshoots

And the Pseudo-Christian sects like:
YOUR Shim Ra Na cult (aggressivechristianity.net)
Christadelphians
Oneness Pentecostals
Unitarians

And the list goes on and on and on . . .

 

[BreadOfLife]

Understand your Bible before you lead people astray with your demented and heretical perspectives on the wisdom of God.
Just trying to help!

Said the Iceberg to the Titanic . . .

If you're trying to "help" - then familiarize yourself with God's Word before making these asinine remarks.
It makes you loook silly . . .

 

[BreadOfLife]

Yes, they could've been much more productive had they displayed their convictions in public, and shone their lights against the evils of this world - eg; rebuking and condemning the reprobate.
What a sorrowful and pitiful life spent in isolation praying and fasting towards God, when it's not Him, solitarily, who needs all the attention. Salt left in the cupboard or concealed, can neither season nor sanitize where needed.

This is the same erroneous thinking that makes many people believe that ALL people should be married - even though the Bible itself says that NOT everybody should be married (1 Cor. 7:32-38).

Self deprivation, which Paul referred to as mortification of the flesh (Rom. 8:13) for the sake of the of God is a righteous endeavor . . .
Luke 7:33-36
For John the Baptist has come eating no bread and drinking no wine, and you say, ‘He has a demon!’ The Son of Man has come eating and drinking, and you say, ‘Behold, a gluttonous man and a drunkard, a friend of tax collectors and sinners!’ Yet wisdom is vindicated by all her children.”

2 Timothy 2:3-6
Suffer hardship with me, as a good soldier of Christ Jesus.

Matt. 6:5-6
“And when you pray, you must not be like the hypocrites. For they love to stand and pray in the synagogues and at the street corners, that they may be seen by others. Truly, I say to you, they have received their reward. But when you pray, go into your room and shut the door and pray to your Father who is in secret. And your Father who sees in secret will reward you.

 

[amigo de christo]

Most of Protestants' dogma that are in defiance of scripture are the ones they inherited from Catholicism and haven't yet thrown out.

exactly .

 

[Renniks]

it is divine and catholic faith revealed by God

Why does it have to be scripture?
Is the word of God limited to scripture?

Acts 2:42

It's not divinely inspired.

 

[Renniks]

Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of WATER AND SPIRIT, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.

Not a reference to baptism...
For example, Psalm 51:2 asks God to, "Wash me thoroughly from my iniquity, and cleanse me from my sin!" Even in the New Testament, water is sometimes used in reference to the idea of spiritual cleansing or purifying. Titus 3:5, for example, says, "he saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit." Here both washing and the Spirit are paired together just as Jesus does in John 3:5.