Where is the Lake of Fire?

[MatthewG]

It was Augustine who came up with the idea of a literal burning flaming hell, where people are tortured in this place forever and ever, with their resurrected flesh. However, Sheol is described as dark, sometimes even prison esk. It's similar to being inside of the whale which Jonah was in. That is about the closest representation we have of the notion, I might gather materials later and try to convey something today. Jonah may have died when he had first entered the whale, but then later came back to life, and then prayed concerning to Yahavah, concerning "Sheol."

 

[MatthewG]

You also have hell, which is representive of Gehnna, which was the valley of Tophet, it's found 12 times in the New Testament, eleven of which are in the Synoptists, in every instance as uttered by the Lord Himself. So many times, when Jesus referenced Hell as translated in the King James Bible, it always was in reference to "Gehenna." When things were falling apart, people were literally thrown into this place, and burned alive, however, does that mean God is gonna burn people alive, in the afterlife in this "Lake of Fire" I see it more of a purging of oneself in the afterlife for those who do make a choice to go in and through this lake, to get to God, it may be just be very hard to get through, and at the end of it they will find the Lamb and his Angels, and perhaps what little is left of them from going through it though it may be hard, may be able to gain entrance into the Kingdom of the Heavenly Jerusalem, it is said that the gates surrounding the Kingdom never close, and if Yahavah is in that place, his fire protrudes from himself outside those gates maybe. There may be people far away out there and people who are of the Kingdom, can be light bearers and bring people to the truth of Yeshua, and go into those flames, which burn away the self-indulgent part of them, maybe. It's a stretch, but it's better than Augustines' method of having them be burned alive forever and ever and ever as most people truly believe that is the case they will go through.

 

[MatthewG]

Then you have of course Hell, sometimes wrongly rendered "the grave" and "hell" which correspond to Sheol (HADES), and the verb tartaroo "cast down to hell" in 2 Peter 2:4; signifies to cosign to Tartarus which is neither Sheol, nor hades, nor hell, but the place where those angels whose special sin is referred to in that passage are confined "to be reserved unto judgement" the region is described as "pits of darkness."

Courtesy of Vines Dictionary of Greek and Hebrew Words.

Where is the Lake of Fire? (post 62)

 

[Skovand]

Well within academia you may want to be aware that hades and hell are completely separate places/events. Even within the mythology, hades is a place in the realm of the dead. It’s where the shades of former beings exist. Hell is a place of fire. It’s the lake of fire and it’s a place that the living and dead are cast into after final judgement along with Satan.

As for tartarus that was just Paul using Hellenistic rhetoric to talk about judgement. It’s from the Greek religions where the titans were locked up by the gods.

 

[MatthewG]

Yes, Sheol was the place for the dead. Separation from God, because they had yet had their sins paid for in full. That was the Parable that Jesus spoke up about the Rich man and Lazarus. Hell; Ghenna was where people were thrown in an burnt alive, but the Lake of Fire, of God would be quite different, that is because God is a fire of love. It still be may hard to get through, and that same fire of love, is instilled in believers of the Lord Yeshua by baptism of the holy spirit and fire, @Skovand. When it comes to Paul, maybe.

 

[A Freeman]

Aren't the more important questions:

1) what is the Lake of Fire (aka "The Fire"); and
2) what do each of us personally need to do to avoid being cast into the Lake of Fire on Judgment Day?

 

[MatthewG]

Many people assume that Souls die. While the mind/will/emotion of a person may die. Even actual death of the body ceasing. It seems to me souls go on. Now to a heavenly realm, some into the Kingdom of God. However, I don't believe what God has given to each and every single person can die, therefore Jesus spoke of Resurrection of Condemnation, and Resurrection of life, Paul later spoke of a better resurrection than the normal, either way All will be resurrected, and placed either within the city walls or outside of it, from my perspective. There is no "hell or hades" that they will go into. Though the Lake of Fire may be a place where people may have to travel to get to God, and find out the Lamb is there, however who really knows right? It's all speculation of what is within the heart of an individual. At the end of life, I do believe all people are judged and given what they have reaped to themselves in this life.

 

[MatthewG]

Aren't the more important questions:

1) what is the Lake of Fire (aka "The Fire"); and
2) what do each of us personally need to do to avoid being cast into the Lake of Fire on Judgment Day?

Hello @A Freeman,

You're on a forum site, with many professing believers.

 

[A Freeman]

Hello @A Freeman,

You're on a forum site, with many professing believers.

Thank-you and understood.

The other two questions though are both things that should be considered very carefully, particularly the second one, as that's something we can actually do something about before it's too late.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

You also have hell, which is representive of Gehnna, which was the valley of Tophet, it's found 12 times in the New Testament, eleven of which are in the Synoptists, in every instance as uttered by the Lord Himself. So many times, when Jesus referenced Hell as translated in the King James Bible, it always was in reference to "Gehenna." When things were falling apart, people were literally thrown into this place, and burned alive, however, does that mean God is gonna burn people alive, in the afterlife in this "Lake of Fire" I see it more of a purging of oneself in the afterlife for those who do make a choice to go in and through this lake, to get to God, it may be just be very hard to get through, and at the end of it they will find the Lamb and his Angels, and perhaps what little is left of them from going through it though it may be hard, may be able to gain entrance into the Kingdom of the Heavenly Jerusalem, it is said that the gates surrounding the Kingdom never close, and if Yahavah is in that place, his fire protrudes from himself outside those gates maybe. There may be people far away out there and people who are of the Kingdom, can be light bearers and bring people to the truth of Yeshua, and go into those flames, which burn away the self-indulgent part of them, maybe. It's a stretch, but it's better than Augustines' method of having them be burned alive forever and ever and ever as most people truly believe that is the case they will go through.

Curious why it’s in The afterlife or in…An afterlife? ? Everything you wrote above makes me think of handing one over to the reprobate mind, putting them without for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved. It seems without and within is not in an afterlife, but is now? Even within the body, and without the body. You wrote ‘When things were falling apart, people were literally thrown into this place, and burned alive, however(the goodness and Mercy of God), does that mean God is gonna burn people alive, in the afterlife in this "Lake of Fire" I see it more of a purging of oneself in the afterlife(why in an afterlife) for those who do make a choice to go in and through this lake, to get to God, it may be just be very hard to get through, and at the end of it they will find the Lamb and his Angels, and perhaps what little is left of them…’

love your “however” for it helps explain how I see God hands them over to a reprobate mind, or when they blasphemy God hands them over to satan (however) that they be taught not to blasphemy His name.

‘does that mean God is gonna burn then alive?’ No I don’t think so but that God hands them over for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit be saved. For me it’s too literal (just an opinion) that people make a choice in the afterlife? They make a choice to go through the lake of fire where at the end they find the lamb and his angels ‘and perhaps what little is left of them’. First so they make a choice, or does God hand them over? Scripture seems to say there will be nothing left of them…for Paul describes it best in Philippians 3:7-9 But what things were gain to me, those I counted loss for Christ. [8] Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ, [9] And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:

Going through the lake of fire in some afterlife?
Consider these questions?
The things Paul describes as burnt up or dissolved by fire, all things loss …with what you suggested that perhaps they hold onto what little is left after going through the fire. All those things burned up Paul describes as in the here and now. Not things in an afterlife. Describing those things burned or dissolved, knowing these things are to be burned up …Paul describes those things he loss for Christ as all his pedigree in the sight of men, his own righteousness dissolved also reminds me of Paul had more reason to boast in the flesh. All this doesn’t fit with some afterlife experience but it is now. This walking through “the fiery trail” that your praise may appear, being found unto the Glorifying of God.

 

[MatthewG]

Hello @VictoryinJesus,

You can believe what you want to believe. That is up to you. I still stand on my current belief that the lake of fire is mentioned in Revelation 21, concerning the new heavenly kingdom with the lake of fire being somewhere there, and people have a “part” in it; perhaps if they so choose to go. I don’t believe God forces it upon people.

When I think of the afterlife, it’s within the confines of the heavenly realm; where there is an outside to the Kingdom and and entrance leading within, on all sides with twelve gates that never shut.

Most people who are highly religious, tell me all the times “there are no second chances.” I wish they could show me that in the Bible somewhere, but they never do.

So yes, while some people go through the fire (Jesus baptized in Holy Spirit and “Fire”) now, some will also in the afterlife otherwise why is Revelation 21 mentioned people having part in the fire and Revelation 22 speaks of people outside the gates? Thats my question.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

You can believe what you want to believe. That is up to you. I still stand on my current belief that the lake of fire is mentioned in Revelation 21, concerning the new heavenly kingdom with the lake of fire being somewhere there, and people have a “part” in it; perhaps if they so choose to go. I don’t believe God forces it upon people.

I never thought I’d change your current belief, but I was only sharing how I see it. Same as you shared how you see it.

When I think of the afterlife, it’s within the confines of the heavenly realm; where there is an outside to the Kingdom and and entrance leading within, on all sides with twelve gates that never shut.

You wrote ‘within the confines of the heavenly realm; where there is an outside to the kingdom and entrance leading within…” for me to understand ‘where there is an outside of the kingdom’ first I have to ask myself what is the entrance leading in? I think the entrance is Christ. That helps with ‘where there is an outside of the kingdom’.

I’m not pushing that on you. Just giving my input.

So yes, while some people go through the fire (Jesus baptized in Holy Spirit and “Fire”) now, some will also in the afterlife otherwise why is Revelation 21 mentioned people having part in the fire and Revelation 22 speaks of people outside the gates? Thats my question.

Outside the gates …again just my perspective but Paul spoke of going outside the gate to bear Christ reproach. Hebrews 13:12-13 Wherefore Jesus also, that he might sanctify the people with his own blood, suffered without the gate. [13] Let us go forth therefore unto him without the camp, bearing his reproach.

Moses did this; esteeming the reproach of Christ greater riches. Hebrews 11:25-26 Choosing rather to suffer affliction with the people of God, than to enjoy the pleasures of sin for a season; [26] Esteeming the reproach of Christ greater riches than the treasures in Egypt: for he had respect unto the recompence of the reward.

To me it has to transcend time but also something now for Paul spoke of “Let us go forth therefore unto him without the camp, bearing his reproach.” And Moses also: Esteemed the reproach of Christ greater riches than the treasures in Egypt: for he had respect unto the recompence of the reward.
^to me that stands out…how all of it is pointing to going without to meet Christ. It sounds very familiar to what you say below of some might go and be light bearers, even going into the fire. You said “in the afterlife in this "Lake of Fire" I see it more of a purging of oneself in the afterlife for those who do make a choice to go in and through this lake, to get to God, (isn’t this as Moses did esteeming the reproach of Christ greater riches, and what Paul said of let us go forth without to meet Him?) it may be just be very hard to get through(the way is narrow, through great suffering you enter in?), and at the end of it they will find the Lamb ;(what Paul said …let us go meet Him without”) and his Angels, and perhaps what little is left of them from going through it though it may be hard, may be able to gain entrance into the Kingdom of the Heavenly Jerusalem, it is said that the gates surrounding the Kingdom never close, and if Yahavah is in that place, his fire protrudes from himself outside those gates maybe. There may be people far away out there and people who are of the Kingdom, can be light bearers and bring people to the truth of Yeshua, (isn’t this what Paul is suggesting in let us go meet Him without and be Light bearers to bring people to the truth of Yeshua?) and go into those flames (let us go meet Him without and bear His reproach) which burn away the self-indulgent part of them, maybe.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

in the afterlife otherwise why is Revelation 21 mentioned people having part in the fire

People having part in the fire: 1 Peter 4:14 If you be reproached for the name of Christ, happy are you; for the spirit of glory and of God rests upon you: on their part he is evil spoken of, but on your part he is glorified.

Only my opinion …we can make it in the afterlife. But I’m not so certain people having part in the fire automatically has to be in an afterlife

 

[MatthewG]

I never thought I’d change your current belief, but I was only sharing how I see it. Same as you shared how you see it.

Hello @VictoryinJesus,

Yes that is fine, we are sharing together.

You wrote ‘within the confines of the heavenly realm; where there is an outside to the kingdom and entrance leading within…”

Yes, that is explained in Revelation.

for me to understand ‘where there is an outside of the kingdom’ first I have to ask myself what is the entrance leading in? I think the entrance is Christ. That helps with ‘where there is an outside of the kingdom’.

Maybe, I don’t know for sure. It’s stated that within the lake of fire is where the Lamb is found. And the one on the Throne is in the Kingdom.

I’m not pushing that on you. Just giving my input.

That’s fine; it’s just difficult to read for me.

Outside the gates …again just my perspective but Paul spoke of going outside the gate to bear Christ reproach.

Okay.

Hebrews 13:12-13 Wherefore Jesus also, that he might sanctify the people with his own blood, suffered without the gate. [13] Let us go forth therefore unto him without the camp, bearing his reproach.

Alright.

Moses did this; esteeming the reproach of Christ greater riches. Hebrews 11:25-26 Choosing rather to suffer affliction with the people of God, than to enjoy the pleasures of sin for a season; [26] Esteeming the reproach of Christ greater riches than the treasures in Egypt: for he had respect unto the recompence of the reward.

Okay.

To me it has to transcend time but also something now for Paul spoke of “Let us go forth therefore unto him without the camp, bearing his reproach.”

What has to transcend time?

And Moses also: Esteemed the reproach of Christ greater riches than the treasures in Egypt: for he had respect unto the recompence of the reward.

I just had got done reading some of Matthew 5, and the things Jesus spoke to his disciples concerning rewards in heaven.

^to me that stands out…how all of it is pointing to going without to meet Christ. It sounds very familiar to what you say below of some might go and be light bearers, even going into the fire.

Maybe. All there is speculation concerning Revelation 21,22.

You said “in the afterlife in this "Lake of Fire" I see it more of a purging of oneself in the afterlife for those who do make a choice to go in and through this lake, to get to God, (isn’t this Moses did esteeming the reproach of Christ greater riches, and what Paul said of let us go without to meet Him?)

I don’t know.

it may be just be very hard to get through(the way is narrow, through great suffering you enter in?), and at the end of it they will find the Lamb ;

That’s where the lake of fire stands with the lamb and his angels.

what Paul said …let us go meet Him without” and his Angels, and perhaps what little is left of them from going through it though it may be hard, may be able to gain entrance into the Kingdom of the Heavenly Jerusalem, it is said that the gates surrounding the Kingdom never close, and if Yahavah is in that place, his fire protrudes from himself outside those gates maybe.

Maybe, I don’t know. I haven’t died yet and could be wrong.

There may be people far away out there and people who are of the Kingdom, can be light bearers and bring people to the truth of Yeshua, (isn’t this what Paul is suggesting in let us go meet Him without and be Light bearers to bring people to the truth of Yeshua?) and go into those flames (let us go meet Him without and bear His reproach) which burn away the self-indulgent part of them, maybe.

I don’t know.

 

[MatthewG]

People having part in the fire: 1 Peter 4:14 If you be reproached for the name of Christ, happy are you; for the spirit of glory and of God rests upon you: on their part he is evil spoken of, but on your part he is glorified.

Only my opinion …we can make it in the afterlife. But I’m not so certain people having part in the fire automatically has to be in an afterlife

Hello Vij,

When it comes to partaking of the fire now, it’s in and through Jesus and his baptism of the Holy Spirit and fire which burns the darkness within us out for the light of Christ Yeshua and his Spirit within us, while our flesh may mess up, the fire must stem from somewhere, it must be from God who is an consuming fire. And light becomes more of us because of God working in and through us by the Holy Spirit and the Spirit of Christ by abiding in the Lord Yeshua, which is a daily choice.

It’s only through Yeshua that we are even able to love God and love others, he is the righteousness, wisdom, and redemption.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

That’s fine; it’s just difficult to read for me.

Is it my grammar that makes it hard to read?

What has to transcend time?

Outside the gate. What you spoke of pertaining to the verses of there being the gate, an entrance into the kingdom yet also a place without and a place within. I meant this entrance spoken of has to transcend time because Moses esteemed the reproach of Christ greater riches than the riches of Egypt and choose to go without the entrance. And Paul also spoke of us going without to meet Christ. Also Christ suffered without the gate to prepare a people in His own blood. They all went without the gate during their days in the flesh in choosing something better, so that makes me question if it is a literal entrance in an afterlife. Or is Christ the entrance one must enter into the kingdom through. If Christ is the entrance, then the entrance does transcend time never changing or moving how one must enter in to the kingdom of God. for there are three that went to this place without during their time.

Maybe, I don’t know. I haven’t died yet and could be wrong.

Me neither. I don’t know what it will be like but I do believe we won’t be disappointed. Even if we are wrong, I think it will be better than anything we can imagine.

 

[MatthewG]

Hello @VictoryinJesus,

Surely so. Jesus died outside the gates of Jerusalem. Why? Because the kingdom that was of this earth was not what he was king of in the first place. He was the King of the Heavenly, of the above Heavenly Jerusalem.

I simply like the idea of being able to continue to do something for Yahavah and his Son, even in the afterlife. Just as servants who serve a King, do in this life like presidents have people under them. Or Mangers who have supervisors under them.

In Revelation there is only a picture to look at, and I assume you’ve read it for yourself before.

There are many people who have ideas about it; that’s for sure such as just being on clouds and playing instruments, but I take it will be busy doing something rather than nothing at all.

Thank you for sharing with me.

 

[A Freeman]

Malachi 4
4:1 For, behold, the Day cometh, that shall burn like an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the "I AM" Lord of hosts, that it shall leave of them neither root nor branch (nothing).
4:2 But unto you that fear My name shall the Sun of Righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall.
4:3 And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in The Day that I shall do [this], saith the "I AM" Lord of hosts.
4:4 Remember ye and return to The Law of Moses My servant, which I commanded unto him in Horeb for all Israel, [with] the Statutes and Judgments.
4:5 Behold, I will send you Elijah the Prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful Day of the "I AM" (Sura 43:61):
4:6 And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse (see verse 1 above for details of the curse).

Matthew 13:40-42, 49-50
13:40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in The Fire; so SHALL it be in the end of this world.
13:41 The Son of Man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his Kingdom ALL things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
13:42 And SHALL cast them into a furnace of Fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

13:49 So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,
13:50 And SHALL cast them into the Furnace of Fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

 

[MatthewG]

Yes, real physical throwing into Ghenna happened in that day and age, @A Freeman. I believe that Jesus has already returned and the wrath of God was upon that generation Jesus spoke of in that day. People suggesting they must adhere to the Law of Moses today in my best estimation are wrong. But by all means believe how you will.