Where is the Lake of Fire?

[quietthinker]

Where is the Lake of Fire?​

64.147 deg. North, 21.940 deg. West

 

[RedFan]

Cleveland, Ohio. The Cuyahoga River Caught Fire at Least a Dozen Times, but No One Cared Until 1969

 

[MatthewG]

I'll throw in my two cents' worth. You are quite right to put special emphasis upon the phrase "They will be tormented with burning sulfur IN THE PRESENCE OF THE HOLY ANGELS AND OF THE LAMB." If I'm not mistaken, the Greek term for this indicates "before the face of" or "in the eyesight of". That means this torment is being experienced with Christ and the holy angels RIGHT THERE in front of those being tormented in that Lake of Fire.

The "Lake of Fire" was located in the city of Jerusalem. John defines the "Lake of Fire" as being the same thing as "the second death" (Rev. 17:14). It was the second time that both Death and Hell (Hades - meaning the grave) would come to overwhelm Jerusalem and its inhabitants.

Jerusalem's first death took place under the Babylonian invasion in 586 BC. The overconfident religious rulers of the people in Jerusalem were saying, "We have made a covenant with Death, and with Hell are we at agreement; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, it shall not come unto us..." (Isaiah 28:15). God warned these cocky leaders of Jerusalem, "Your covenant with Death shall be disannulled, and your agreement with Hell shall not stand; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, then ye shall be trodden down by it." (Isaiah 28:18). Jerusalem died when it and the temple were burned, and the surviving prisoners in Jerusalem were sent into captivity by the Babylonians. Death and Hell (Hades - the grave) overcame them, just as Isaiah had predicted.

And it was exactly the same thing in the AD 66-70 years. Jerusalem and the temple died again for a second time and were burned up, and the surviving prisoners in Jerusalem sent into captivity in AD 70. Death and Hell (Hades - the grave) were again thrown into the city for a second time to plague its besieged inhabitants. It was "the Second Death" of Jerusalem, the temple, and the nation of Israel.

This fate had already been predicted for the people of Israel for their "latter end" and in the "latter days" in the "Song of Moses" in Deuteronomy 32 - even before Israel had entered the land of Canaan under Joshua. (This "Song of Moses" was being sung in Revelation 15:3, in anticipation of the seven plagues of God's judgments about to be poured out on the earth.)

The "Song of Moses" was a prediction that in Israel's "latter days", God would accuse Israel of their idolatry and lack of faith, pronouncing this judgment against His people: "For a fire is kindled in mine anger, and shall burn unto the lowest hell, and shall consume the earth with her increase, and set on fire the foundations of the mountains. I will heap mischief upon them; I will spend mine arrows upon them. They shall be burnt with hunger, and devoured with burning heat, and with bitter destruction: I will also send the teeth of beasts upon them, with the poison of serpents of the dust. The sword without, and terror within, shall destroy both the young man and the virgin, the suckling also with the man of gray hairs." (Deut. 32:22-25). This was going to be the Lord taking His vengeance against those that hated Him and who had slain His servants - a crime which Christ accused Jerusalem of having committed (Matthew 23:34-38).

The "Lake of Fire" was a first-century phenomenon that took place within the city of Jerusalem, as the entire city turned into a blazing furnace at the close of AD 70. This inferno produced a distinct ash layer that is still visible today in excavations of Old Jerusalem.

Intresting read, and I thank you for contributing @3 Resurrections. I believe the same picture would be in the heavenly realm, which perhaps the lake of fire is nearby, the heavenly Jerusalem, or within it itself. All we can really do is speculate but as you stated it was within Jerusalem, I guess that was the dump they used to place refuse in, but today it is no longer burning. God being a fire, makes me wonder if perhaps there may be people who will go towards him, and it may be very difficult of course it will be a choice they make from living outside of the kingdom not desiring God while in this life, and they get what they want in the next life, though I don't believe they are suffering being out there. I don't believe God is angry with them either. I tend to think when we transfer from this life to where God is, and if we get to go be with Yahavah, we will be able to have a job to do... The reason why, I don't think singing all day will be all that wonderful. But doing something, just as we were created to do something, would be much more exillerating, and my thoughts are that those in the heavenly kingdom may come to help those who are outside in the darkness, in a humble and contrite way, in our new resurrected bodies, and perhaps those condemned resurrected people in their bodies, may be able to progress towards this lake of fire, and come to the truth of whom really does save them. The Lamb, whom saved us from all of our sins.

 

[MatthewG]

As for my opinion on the questions posed by Matthew I don’t think hell is a place. I think that the lake of fire is the symbolism used to describe the process of the second death. Which is conditional immortality. But I also think there is a strong argument for universalism and that the symbolism of the second death comes with the assumption of restoration through the work Christ did for all of creation. When I have time I’ll study out universalism vs conditional immortality in depth but it’s a few years away.

Hello Skovand,

When I think of second death, I think of death to oneself. Death to the wills and ways of the selfish nature. Jesus overcame this. When it comes to hell, I believe it was a real place that existed in which Jesus taught about using a parable and it was a place where everyone went to before going to the heavenly realm like they do today. Jesus went to hell, the old testament prophets went to hell, and so did people who did not care for God went to hell, and supposedly some angels went to even a lower part of hell reserved for judgment. Why? That is the question. The reason why was because Sin separated people from God. Even though they did rituals and gave sacrficies for sins in order to be forgiven, they still failed the Law, unlike Jesus. Therefore their sin separated them from God, and God had a place for them to wait, until the time was right. Today, considering Jesus overcoming all things, all people are resurrected condemned or of life, or even a better resurrection, and go on to the heavenly realm, or into the heavenly kingdom. I don't personally believe in universalism, I do not personally believe that something that is given by God (our soul) can ever really die, it's part of God, though our choices either take us with him, or keep us against him, and therefore this is why I believe perhaps the lake of fire - is some type of purging of the self, when going into it. Now the devil and his angels I think they are done away with today, though most do not, but it is after all our own choices and perspective and looking that can lead us to these beliefs.

 

[MatthewG]

Where is the Lake of Fire?​

64.147 deg. North, 21.940 deg. West
View attachment 54638

Cleveland, Ohio. The Cuyahoga River Caught Fire at Least a Dozen Times, but No One Cared Until 1969

Thank you @RedFan, and @quietthinker.

 

[Behold]

Islamic fanatics have a hard and desperate life.

They are taught as young children to hate Jews and anyone who isn't a devout muslim.
And when they are older, they are expected to become a Martyr for a false god.
Their supposed 'heaven" is a fantasy whorehouse in the sky as their heaven, that has 63 virgins waiting to fornicate with them they are falsely led to believe, if they will sacrifice themselves for "allah.. .who isn't real....... and once they do blow themselves up killing some Jews......they wake up in the Christian Hell... on their way to the Lake of Fire.

Thats a tough road., and a very sad situation.

 

[Hobie]

Revelation 14:9-13
View attachment 54547

I think Gods Word lays it our very clear...
Revelation 19:20
And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

Revelation 20:10
And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

Revelation 20:14
And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

Revelation 20:15
And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

 

[MatthewG]

Hello @Hobie,

You are missing, a scripture.

 

[MatthewG]

I believe people die to themselves in this life and live to Christ. We are gonna die in our first route, which is death itself, but in a spiritual sense die to ourselves and live for Christ.

Romans 6:11 So you too must count yourselves dead to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus. In the same way, count yourselves dead to sin but alive to God in Christ Jesus. So you also should consider yourselves to be dead to the power of sin and alive to God through Christ Jesus.

Jesus overcame both the first death, and the second death.

The first death that Adam died, was Spiritual death, and Jesus overcame that.
Jesus died, and overcame that by his Father rising him up again.

 

[Behold]

I believe people die to themselves in this life and live to Christ.

Dont you mean that a "christian" is supposed to die to self, and carry their cross, daily?

See, if you say "people", then that includes unbelievers, and i can assure you that they are not dying to themselves to live for Christ.

 

[MatthewG]

Hi @Behold. Good morning. I hope that you are having a decent day or night so far.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

It would seem to me the lake of fire is the circumstances we find ourselves in after we sin.

I don’t know if it’s the circumstances or how we perceive the circumstances. Some call it good? Like Paul came into agreement the Law is good, with his mind serving Christ and with his body the law of sin. Others calling it evil? Psalm 31:9-15
Have mercy upon me, O LORD, for I am in trouble: mine eye is consumed with grief, yea, my soul and my belly. [10] For my life is spent with grief, and my years with sighing: my strength fails because of my iniquity, and my bones are consumed. [11] I was a reproach among all my enemies, but especially among my neighbours, and a fear to my acquaintance: they that did see me without fled from me. [12] I am forgotten as a dead man out of mind: I am like a broken vessel. [13] For I have heard the slander of many: fear was on every side: while they took counsel together against me, they devised to take away my life. [14] But I trusted in You, O LORD: I said, You are my God. [15] My times are in Your hand: deliver me from the hand of mine enemies, and from them that persecute me.

Same as our God is a consuming fire.
Lamentations 3:18-22 And I said, My strength and my hope is perished from the LORD: [19] Remembering mine affliction and my misery, the wormwood and the gall. [20] My soul has them still in remembrance, and is humbled in me. [21] This I recall to my mind, therefore have I hope. [22] It is of the LORD'S mercies that we are not consumed, because his compassions fail not.


1 John 4:18 There is no fear in love; but perfect love casts out fear: because fear has torment. He that fears is not made perfect in love.

Point is…I’m considering what you said and like it. “It would seem to me the lake of fire is the circumstances we find ourselves in after we sin.”
But I also wonder if it’s not our circumstances so much as whether our circumstances consume us, or out of Trust and Hope in the Lord our circumstances do not consume us and fill us with bitter gall which in turn we give to others to drink. Bitter gall, I think, is consuming like the warning to be careful you don’t consume one another, or devour, or swallow each other up like hell and the grave. When they gave Jesus Christ bitter gall, He gave them Living water to drink…The water He gives overcoming the water of bitterness.

I do think you make sense in not making hell a place of torment (although it is) but again, fear has torment. 1 John 4:18 There is no fear in love; but perfect love casts out fear: because fear has torment. He that fears is not made perfect in love.
Hebrews 2:14-15 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil; [15] And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.

 

[Behold]

Hi @Behold. Good morning. I hope that you are having a decent day or night so far.

Thank you.

So far, so good.

Jesus is ALIVE.. Lets make Him happy today, and every day with our lives.

-Shalom

 

[Bob Estey]

I don’t know if it’s the circumstances or how we perceive the circumstances. Some call it good? Like Paul came into agreement the Law is good, with his mind serving Christ and with his body the law of sin. Others calling it evil? Psalm 31:9-15
Have mercy upon me, O LORD, for I am in trouble: mine eye is consumed with grief, yea, my soul and my belly. [10] For my life is spent with grief, and my years with sighing: my strength fails because of my iniquity, and my bones are consumed. [11] I was a reproach among all my enemies, but especially among my neighbours, and a fear to my acquaintance: they that did see me without fled from me. [12] I am forgotten as a dead man out of mind: I am like a broken vessel. [13] For I have heard the slander of many: fear was on every side: while they took counsel together against me, they devised to take away my life. [14] But I trusted in You, O LORD: I said, You are my God. [15] My times are in Your hand: deliver me from the hand of mine enemies, and from them that persecute me.

Same as our God is a consuming fire.
Lamentations 3:18-22 And I said, My strength and my hope is perished from the LORD: [19] Remembering mine affliction and my misery, the wormwood and the gall. [20] My soul has them still in remembrance, and is humbled in me. [21] This I recall to my mind, therefore have I hope. [22] It is of the LORD'S mercies that we are not consumed, because his compassions fail not.


1 John 4:18 There is no fear in love; but perfect love casts out fear: because fear has torment. He that fears is not made perfect in love.

Point is…I’m considering what you said and like it. “It would seem to me the lake of fire is the circumstances we find ourselves in after we sin.”
But I also wonder if it’s not our circumstances so much as whether our circumstances consume us, or out of Trust and Hope in the Lord our circumstances do not consume us and fill us with bitter gall which in turn we give to others to drink. Bitter gall, I think, is consuming like the warning to be careful you don’t consume one another, or devour, or swallow each other up like hell and the grave. When they gave Jesus Christ bitter gall, He gave them Living water to drink…The water He gives overcoming the water of bitterness.

I do think you make sense in not making hell a place of torment (although it is) but again, fear has torment. 1 John 4:18 There is no fear in love; but perfect love casts out fear: because fear has torment. He that fears is not made perfect in love.
Hebrews 2:14-15 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil; [15] And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.

I think the Lord allows us to experience the unpleasant circumstances that result from our sin to teach us a lesson.

 

[3 Resurrections]

I believe the same picture would be in the heavenly realm, which perhaps the lake of fire is nearby, the heavenly Jerusalem, or within it itself.

The Lord Jesus used "flaming fire" to take vengeance on those who had been shedding the blood of His servants, and who did not obey the gospel (2 Thess. 1:7-8). Isaiah had once said that the Lord's fire was in Zion, "and His furnace in Jerusalem" (Isaiah 31:9). The city of Jerusalem turned into that "furnace of fire" where the living inhabitants of the city were tormented during those AD 66-70 years of the siege, until its complete destruction. Christ had predicted this in Matthew 13:40-42. "The Son of Man shall send forth His angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth." This was an earthly reality for those living inside the besieged city of Jerusalem during AD 66-70. It was not describing the state of eternity for the wicked dead. During His earthly ministry, Christ had once expressed a fervent desire that this fire had already been kindled. "I came to send fire on the earth, and how I wish it were already kindled!", He exclaimed in Luke 12:49.

But as you said above, fire is also present in the heavenly realm, since our God is called "a consuming fire". Pure energy - and utter holiness. In Him is no darkness at all. We are given a picture of this in Daniel 7:10 describing God's throne: "A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: thousand thousands ministered unto Him..."

In the resurrected state, glorified righteous saints become enabled to live in the presence of that fiery stream of God's holiness. As asked in Isaiah 33:14, "...Who among us shall dwell with the devouring fire? Who among us shall dwell with everlasting burnings? He that walketh righteously, and speaketh uprightly; he that despiseth the gain of oppressions,...He shall dwell on high..."

It is a BLESSING for the righteous to be able to dwell in God's presence of consuming fire that burns with everlasting holiness. Quite a different scenario than is usually pictured for the state of eternity. The "chaff" is "burned up" by this consuming fire in the judgment. God is not to blame that He is so utterly holy that anyone with a trace of wickedness cannot survive to dwell in His presence. Were it not for Christ's holiness imputed to us, and the change to the incorruptible in the resurrection process, we too would likewise share the same fate of utterly perishing in the presence of God.

 

[Skovand]

You talk about your opinion incessantly Behold, and by implication that means you are talking about yourself.....labelling it 'rightly dividing'

In my view, that is the thrust of one of many counterfeit gospels, ie self focus. It speaks piously but rings hollow.

Hello Skovand,

When I think of second death, I think of death to oneself. Death to the wills and ways of the selfish nature. Jesus overcame this. When it comes to hell, I believe it was a real place that existed in which Jesus taught about using a parable and it was a place where everyone went to before going to the heavenly realm like they do today. Jesus went to hell, the old testament prophets went to hell, and so did people who did not care for God went to hell, and supposedly some angels went to even a lower part of hell reserved for judgment. Why? That is the question. The reason why was because Sin separated people from God. Even though they did rituals and gave sacrficies for sins in order to be forgiven, they still failed the Law, unlike Jesus. Therefore their sin separated them from God, and God had a place for them to wait, until the time was right. Today, considering Jesus overcoming all things, all people are resurrected condemned or of life, or even a better resurrection, and go on to the heavenly realm, or into the heavenly kingdom. I don't personally believe in universalism, I do not personally believe that something that is given by God (our soul) can ever really die, it's part of God, though our choices either take us with him, or keep us against him, and therefore this is why I believe perhaps the lake of fire - is some type of purging of the self, when going into it. Now the devil and his angels I think they are done away with today, though most do not, but it is after all our own choices and perspective and looking that can lead us to these beliefs.

We have a very different understanding of hell. I think we also have a very different understanding of hades as well. I think what you are calling hell, I call hades, since the Bible makes a distinct separation of the two. I think hades is just metaphorical speech for soul sleeping and that the second death just means being ignored by the resurrection of the saints, but not necessarily the restoration of all creation.

So I think when you die, when everyone dies, they go to hades, which is just hyperbolic speech for death which they best understood, even as us, as a sort of eternal slumber but that which Christ can raise us from.

 

[ProDeo]

@Bob Estey, many people wonder if the lake of fire still exists in the afterlife. God is a consuming fire and no darkness can enter in, there must be something to that. However people can speculate if they wish. I believe servants of the heavenly kingdom have something to do in heaven, perhaps it’s going into the darkness to bring them to Gods light, even if that might be a challenge for them. There is nothing wrong with speculation.

More speculation. Predates the Biblical LOF with 1275 years. And now what?

 

[MatthewG]

Hello @ProDeo,

In life all we have is speculation, thinking, logic, and reasoning. Hopefully the spirit of Yahavah wins out; with faith and love.

 

[Skovand]

More speculation. Predates the Biblical LOF with 1275 years. And now what?

A lot of religious beliefs borrow from one another. The Jewish Bible is littered with literary influences of ancient near East asian concepts.

 

[MatthewG]

We have a very different understanding of hell. I think we also have a very different understanding of hades as well. I think what you are calling hell, I call hades, since the Bible makes a distinct separation of the two. I think hades is just metaphorical speech for soul sleeping and that the second death just means being ignored by the resurrection of the saints, but not necessarily the restoration of all creation.

So I think when you die, when everyone dies, they go to hades, which is just hyperbolic speech for death which they best understood, even as us, as a sort of eternal slumber but that which Christ can raise us from.

Hello @Skovand,

You are right. We do, and that is okay. When I normally say hell, I really mean Sheol. I could relate Sheol to Hades.