Where does the Pope get his authority?

[Marymog]

Before all this of course, Paul in particular had helped to begin a church in Rome he and throughout Asia minor, appointing elders in each as far as we know, and writing letters of counsel and reproof.

Nope, Paul didn't help to begin the church in Rome "Before all this..." (when Christ started The One Church with One Doctrine). Paul didn't get to Rome until around 61AD which was 30 years after his conversion and 33-34 AFTER Christ started The Church with One doctrine, One Faith, One teaching. Sooooo you got that wrong. ;)

The FACT is Paul didn't convert to Christianity until 3-4 years AFTER Jesus died. For those 3-4 years The Apostles (and the elders they appointed at various churches in various cities) taught that One Doctrine with One Truth in the One Church.

You and your ilk believe at some point in history that One Teaching with One Doctrine and One Truth stopped being taught to the flock and confusion reigned throughout all of Christianity. However, you and your ilk can't point out when that happened OR what "Truth" stopped being taught. You just have a feeling in your tummy that 1,800 years later your men started teaching the truth and you drank the kool aide they gave you.

Do you ever get tired of being wrong?

 

[RedFan]

The Greek Orthodox were part of the Catholic Church until 1054 A.D.

The Greek Othodox and the Roman See were both parts of the Catholic Church until 1054 A.D. "Catholic" didn't mean "Roman" Catholic back then. It just meant the church that was spawned on Pentecost and had spread throughout the western world (and beyond) as the true church of Christ..

 

[Marymog]

As I said in the post you quoted, Catholics seem reluctant to talk about them.

Complete and utter lie OR complete ignorance on your part. Which one is it?

If you took the time to do some research you would see that The Church does "talk about them".

Do you ever get tired of being wrong?

 

[Marymog]

Now all of a sudden you take a massive leap from 200ad, to the 15th century! Did you know there were Christian churches throughout Persia during a large portion of that time span? Did you know that Rome had very little contact, and even less influence with those churches? Did you know that the church of Milan and Turin, for centuries, was independent of any Roman authority? They weren't 'denominations ', nor had they broken away from the one true faith Jesus began. They grew naturally from that one church.

Nope. I didn't make a massive leap Brakelite. That is how YOU interpret what I said.

I never suggested that the churches in Milan and Turin had broken away from The Church. I never suggested they were denominations soooo once again, you are wrong. ;)

I can provide historical Christian writings showing Rome as having Primacy in Christianity. Can you provide historical Christian writings showing Rome as NOT having Primacy in Christianity?

 

[RedFan]

I can provide historical Christian writings showing Rome as having Primacy in Christianity. Can you provide historical Christian writings showing Rome as NOT having Primacy in Christianity?

We might start with the sixth canon handed down at Nicaea.

 

[RedFan]

The Apostles (and the elders they appointed at various churches in various cities) taught that One Doctrine with One Truth in the One Church.

I agree. And the bishops in these various churches -- and their successors -- are not to be looked as vicars of the Roman Pontiffs, because they exercise a power really their own.

 

[Marymog]

I agree. And the bishops in these various churches -- and their successors -- are not to be looked as vicars of the Roman Pontiffs, because they exercise a power really their own.

If those bishops us that "power" to deviate from the One Doctrine of the One Church that is teaching One Truth, then they are no longer of The Church.

 

[Jude Thaddeus]

The following prove that the authority the Popes claim as belonging to them, going back over a century, is far wider than applying to just "faith and morals" for Catholics.
View attachment 44963View attachment 44964View attachment 44966View attachment 44967View attachment 44968View attachment 44969View attachment 44970

What "common good' means, is that if the church decides that what you own is too much, they have the right, even the responsibility, to take it from you and give it to some one they believe needs it more.

What an absurd conclusion. Do you have an example of the church robbing from people?

That's called theft. This they claim authority to impose themselves over and above the authority of God Himself as declared in His law.

Billions of $ sent to the third world doesn't come from stolen money.

 

[RedFan]

If those bishops us that "power" to deviate from the One Doctrine of the One Church that is teaching One Truth, then they are no longer of The Church.

Right. And the challenge of Roman Catholicism is to demonstrate that the Bishop of Rome is the only bishop who cannot use his power to deviate from the One Doctrine of the One Church that is teaching One Truth. The Protestant protests, with some justice, that this may not be established by definition (as the RCC has sometimes claimed), but must be shown independently.

 

[Jude Thaddeus]

Right. And the challenge of Roman Catholicism is to demonstrate that the Bishop of Rome is the only bishop who cannot use his power to deviate from the One Doctrine of the One Church that is teaching One Truth. The Protestant protests, with some justice, that this may not be established by definition (as the RCC has sometimes claimed), but must be shown independently.

Whatever "power" the pope has is restricted only to Catholics. It's anti-Catholics that give the pope more power than he actually has. This is evident in the silly conspiracy theories of a one world religion or government led by the pope. For that to happen, the pope would have to undercut the basis of his existence.
What is most disturbing about the pope? His humility?

1. Best One-Sentence Summary: I am convinced that the Catholic Church conforms much more closely to all of the biblical data, offers the only coherent view of the history of Christianity (i.e., Christian, apostolic Tradition), and possesses the most profound and sublime Christian morality, spirituality, social ethic, and philosophy.

2. Alternate: I am a Catholic because I sincerely believe, by virtue of much cumulative evidence, that Catholicism is true, and that the Catholic Church is the visible Church divinely established by our Lord Jesus, against which the gates of hell cannot and will not prevail (Mt 16:18), thereby possessing an authority to which I feel bound in Christian duty to submit.

150 Reasons Why I Became (and Remain) A Catholic

Simple listing of 150 reasons in favor of the Catholic faith, featuring 300 biblical evidences favoring Catholicism, listed for reference purposes.

www.patheos.com

 

[RedFan]

Whatever "power" the pope has is restricted only to Catholics. It's anti-Catholics that give the pope more power than he actually has.

Yes. But as long as the papacy styles itself as heading the only "true" Church it will foster the perception that it is appropriating greater power to itself by telling non-Catholics that their salvation is in peril.

 

[Jude Thaddeus]

Yes. But as long as the papacy styles itself as heading the only "true" Church it will foster the perception that it is appropriating greater power to itself by telling non-Catholics that their salvation is in peril.

How is that the pope's fault?
We are not the only church with truths and we don't tell anybody their salvation is in peril. We don't make those judgements. That's God's business.

Wounds to unity

817 In fact, "in this one and only Church of God from its very beginnings there arose certain rifts, which the Apostle strongly censures as damnable. But in subsequent centuries much more serious dissensions appeared and large communities became separated from full communion with the Catholic Church - for which, often enough, men of both sides were to blame."269 The ruptures that wound the unity of Christ's Body - here we must distinguish heresy, apostasy, and schism270 - do not occur without human sin:

Where there are sins, there are also divisions, schisms, heresies, and disputes. Where there is virtue, however, there also are harmony and unity, from which arise the one heart and one soul of all believers.271

818 "However, one cannot charge with the sin of the separation those who at present are born into these communities [that resulted from such separation] and in them are brought up in the faith of Christ, and the Catholic Church accepts them with respect and affection as brothers . . . . All who have been justified by faith in Baptism are incorporated into Christ; they therefore have a right to be called Christians, and with good reason are accepted as brothers in the Lord by the children of the Catholic Church."272

819 "Furthermore, many elements of sanctification and of truth"273 are found outside the visible confines of the Catholic Church: "the written Word of God; the life of grace; faith, hope, and charity, with the other interior gifts of the Holy Spirit, as well as visible elements."274 Christ's Spirit uses these Churches and ecclesial communities as means of salvation, whose power derives from the fullness of grace and truth that Christ has entrusted to the Catholic Church. All these blessings come from Christ and lead to him,275 and are in themselves calls to "Catholic unity."276

Toward unity

820 "Christ bestowed unity on his Church from the beginning. This unity, we believe, subsists in the Catholic Church as something she can never lose, and we hope that it will continue to increase until the end of time."277 Christ always gives his Church the gift of unity, but the Church must always pray and work to maintain, reinforce, and perfect the unity that Christ wills for her. This is why Jesus himself prayed at the hour of his Passion, and does not cease praying to his Father, for the unity of his disciples: "That they may all be one. As you, Father, are in me and I am in you, may they also be one in us, . . . so that the world may know that you have sent me."278 The desire to recover the unity of all Christians is a gift of Christ and a call of the Holy Spirit.279

Catechism of the Catholic Church - PART 1 SECTION 2 CHAPTER 3 ARTICLE 9 PARAGRAPH 3

scborromeo.org

Vatican II ended the need for a reformation.

"... the Catholic Church accepts them with respect and affection as brothers..."
Look what we get in return.

 

[RedFan]

How is that the pope's fault?
We are not the only church with truths and we don't tell anybody their salvation is in peril. We don't make those judgements. That's God's business.

Oops, wrong section. Catechism of the Catholic Church 846 says there is no salvation outside the Catholic Church. Protestants read that, and perceive pomposity in the area of salvation.

 

[Jude Thaddeus]

I was thinking of Catechism of the Catholic Church 830 ("There is no salvation apart from Christ and his One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church. Again, this is an infallible teaching and not up for debate among Catholics.") Protestants read that, and perceive pomposity in the area of salvation.

Beyond CCC830 are qualifiers. "There is no salvation apart from Christ and his One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church." is constantly misrepresented by non-Catholics.
The Catholic Church teaches infallibly, “extra ecclesiam nulla salus,” or, “outside the Church there is no salvation.” But as with all dogmas of the Faith, this has to be qualified and understood properly. The Catechism of the Catholic Church lays out the truth of the matter succinctly in paragraphs 846-848, but I would recommend backing up to CCC 830 for a context that will help in understanding these three essential points concerning this teaching:

1. There is no salvation apart from Christ and his One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church. Again, this is an infallible teaching and not up for debate among Catholics. (the Church does not have the authority to change what the Apostles taught)
2. Those who are “invincibly” ignorant concerning the truth of #1 above will not be culpable for this lack of knowledge before God.
3. Those in the category of #2 have the real possibility of salvation even if they never come to an explicit knowledge of Christ and/or his Church.

As we will see below, “invincibly ignorant” does not mean just because a person is “ignorant” of the truth, they will automatically be saved. Ignorance is not bliss; it is dangerous. There are other criteria beyond being “invincibly ignorant” that must be met as well before one can finally be saved. But it does mean that they have the possibility of salvation.

Now, before we get too far into the weeds here, let me quote the Catechism of the Catholic Church, paragraphs 846-48, which—as is so often the case no matter the doctrine with the CCC—presents this teaching clearly and to the point under the heading: “Outside the Church there is no Salvation.”

How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers? Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body:
“Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it” (CCC here quotes The Dogmatic Constitution on the Church, “Lumen Gentium,” 14, from the documents of Vatican II).

The Church is very clear here. There is no salvation apart from a salvific union with the Catholic Church. However, the Catechism continues:

This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church: “Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience – those too may achieve eternal salvation” (quoting, Lumen Gentium, 16).
“Although in ways known to himself God can lead those, who, through no fault of their own, are ignorant of the Gospel, to that faith without which it is impossible to please him, the Church still has the obligation and also the sacred right to evangelize all men” (quoting Ad Gentes, 7, another document from Vatican II).

I recommend a careful reading of the texts represented by the footnotes in paragraph 16 of Lumen Gentium (nos. 17 and 18) which reference St. Thomas Aquinas’ Summa Theologica III q. 8 a. 3 ad 1, and the Instruction of the Holy Office of Dec. 20, 1949, that I will reference below. These make very clear that anyone who is ever saved is not saved by his or her false religious beliefs (i.e. Judaism that rejects Christ, Islam that denies Jesus is the Son of God, etc.); rather, they can be saved in spite of them. If they are ignorant of the truth through no fault of their own (they have never had the opportunity to either hear or understand the truth), then the limited amount of truth that they do have “among shadows and images,” and “all goodness and truth found in these religions [serve] as ‘a preparation for the Gospel and given by him who enlightens all men that they may at length have life’” (CCC 843).

 

[Aunty Jane]

The SDA and JW's think they have it rough.

I cannot speak for SDA’s but you seem to have no idea about the history of Jehovah’s Witnesses....

When Catholic was killing Catholic in the two world wars of last century, where were Jehovah’s Witnesses? In jail for refusing to shed innocent blood....conscientious objectors who were suffering beatings, starvation, humiliation and solitary confinement in an attempt to break their faith.

In WW 2, our brothers were persecuted second only to the Jews....we have our own place in the Holocaust Museum in Washington D.C.....Hitler viewed the Jews as vermin to be eliminated, but JW’s were the only ones given an opportunity to renounce their faith by signing a document drafted by the Nazis. Those who refused to sign were punished, but the few who out of cowardice weakened and signed the paper were taken out and shot. There was no respect for them. Some SS guards were so impressed by the conduct of the Witnesses in the camps, that they followed them up after the war and became our brothers.

Some countries especially where Roman Catholicism was dominant, had JW’s in their sights as mobs rounded them up to tar and feather them because of their refusal to break God’s law. Even today in Russia and other countries our brothers are sent to prison for years merely for possessing the Bible or holding their Christian meetings......even though the constitution of Russia guarantees freedom of worship....thanks to the Russian Orthodox Catholic Church, once outlawed in Communist Russia, now has great sway over their government and the implementation of their laws....”Friends with the world” (James 4:4)

We are labelled as extremists and sent to prison on trumped up charges. Our meeting places are closed down and our property is confiscated illegally....but there is no redress as the law and those who enforce it are corrupt.

Other countries too sent Jehovah’s Witnesses to jail for conscientious objection. In South Africa for example, our brothers were called up for military service when they became adults and served years in prison for refusing to learn to kill, but then when their prison sentence was up, they were called up again and then sent back to prison.....can you imagine the injustice? But our brother did not waste the opportunity and preached to those who shared their prison cells.

Tell me please when members of Roman Catholicism or the Orthodox churches have suffered this way at the hands of other churches or governments, throughout their history? When has the Catholic church not been in bed with their governments?

Don’t tell us your problems.....

 

[Brakelite]

Huh? Someone is danger?

My apologies. Google correction. My question in response to your post...

The Church mirror Scripture and what the students of the Apostles taught

Is, does the church really mirror scripture? For example. Please explain how an individual sinner is saved according to the church. Perhaps some quotes from the catechism?

 

[Brakelite]

Nope, Paul didn't help to begin the church in Rome "Before all this..." (when Christ started The One Church with One Doctrine). Paul didn't get to Rome until around 61AD which was 30 years after his conversion and 33-34 AFTER Christ started The Church with One doctrine, One Faith, One teaching. Sooooo you got that wrong. ;)

The FACT is Paul didn't convert to Christianity until 3-4 years AFTER Jesus died. For those 3-4 years The Apostles (and the elders they appointed at various churches in various cities) taught that One Doctrine with One Truth in the One Church.

You and your ilk believe at some point in history that One Teaching with One Doctrine and One Truth stopped being taught to the flock and confusion reigned throughout all of Christianity. However, you and your ilk can't point out when that happened OR what "Truth" stopped being taught. You just have a feeling in your tummy that 1,800 years later your men started teaching the truth and you drank the kool aide they gave you.

Do you ever get tired of being wrong?

You must think I'm an absolute fool. Do you seriously believe that I was saying Paul established the church before Christ? Seriously? No. I don't believe you are serious. I think you deliberately looked for an opening to confuse the discussion, create a straw man, and "win" the argument. Follow my conversation in the original post. When I said,

Before all this

It was in reference to what I had been discussing... The dispersion of the Christian church just before 70ad and the establishment of churches all over the world subsequent to that. Before all that, etc etc.

 

[Jude Thaddeus]

I cannot speak for SDA’s but you seem to have no idea about the history of Jehovah’s Witnesses....

When Catholic was killing Catholic in the two world wars of last century, where were Jehovah’s Witnesses? In jail for refusing to shed innocent blood....conscientious objectors who were suffering beatings, starvation, humiliation and solitary confinement in an attempt to break their faith.

In WW 2, our brothers were persecuted second only to the Jews....we have our own place in the Holocaust Museum in Washington D.C.....Hitler viewed the Jews as vermin to be eliminated, but JW’s were the only ones given an opportunity to renounce their faith by signing a document drafted by the Nazis. Those who refused to sign were punished, but the few who out of cowardice weakened and signed the paper were taken out and shot. There was no respect for them. Some SS guards were so impressed by the conduct of the Witnesses in the camps, that they followed them up after the war and became our brothers.

Some countries especially where Roman Catholicism was dominant, had JW’s in their sights as mobs rounded them up to tar and feather them because of their refusal to break God’s law. Even today in Russia and other countries our brothers are sent to prison for years merely for possessing the Bible or holding their Christian meetings......even though the constitution of Russia guarantees freedom of worship....thanks to the Russian Orthodox Catholic Church, once outlawed in Communist Russia, now has great sway over their government and the implementation of their laws....”Friends with the world” (James 4:4)

We are labelled as extremists and sent to prison on trumped up charges. Our meeting places are closed down and our property is confiscated illegally....but there is no redress as the law and those who enforce it are corrupt.

Other countries too sent Jehovah’s Witnesses to jail for conscientious objection. In South Africa for example, our brothers were called up for military service when they became adults and served years in prison for refusing to learn to kill, but then when their prison sentence was up, they were called up again and then sent back to prison.....can you imagine the injustice? But our brother did not waste the opportunity and preached to those who shared their prison cells.

Tell me please when members of Roman Catholicism or the Orthodox churches have suffered this way at the hands of other churches or governments, throughout their history? When has the Catholic church not been in bed with their governments?

Don’t tell us your problems.....

I am aware of the injustices, persecutions and war crimes committed against the JW in WW2. Over 10,000 were killed in the Holocaust, and that's just the Germans. There were 3,000,000 Polish Catholics killed in the holocaust, so Christians of any sort in the death camps were united in blood. They had more on their minds than doctrinal differences.
The Holocaust Archives don't lie. The reason there were no SDA members listed is because Hitler liked what they were teaching about the Pope so they were given a free pass.

Jehovah's Witnesses in the Holocaust

Encyclopedia of Jewish and Israeli history, politics and culture, with biographies, statistics, articles and documents on topics from anti-Semitism to Zionism.

www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org

 

[Jude Thaddeus]

You must think I'm an absolute fool. Do you seriously believe that I was saying Paul established the church before Christ? Seriously?

Marymog said no such thing. Use the quote feature and stop making things up.

No. I don't believe you are serious. I think you deliberately looked for an opening to confuse the discussion, create a straw man, and "win" the argument. Follow my conversation in the original post. When I said,

It was in reference to what I had been discussing... The dispersion of the Christian church just before 70ad and the establishment of churches all over the world subsequent to that. Before all that, etc etc.

I have no problem with your original quote, but at no time anywhere can a church be established without a bishop. It doesn't matter if there is evidence of Christians existing in far off places; if they had no bishop, they had no church. Evidently, Rome had Christians living in Rome before Peter and Paul showed up, but there was no church in Rome before that. The office of bishop is clearly stated in scripture.

You may have elders, but you have no bishops ordained by other bishops, who were ordained by other bishops who were ordained by other bishops..., traced back to the Apostles. It's a living legacy, not just a numerical one.
After the death of James, centrality of the Universal Church shifted from Jerusalem to Rome, established by Peter and Paul.

 

[RedFan]

The office of bishop is clearly stated in scripture.

You may have elders, but you have no bishops ordained by other bishops, who were ordained by other bishops who were ordained by other bishops..., traced back to the Apostles. It's a living legacy, not just a numerical one.

Good point. Apostolic succession is a real thing, and a mark of legitimacy.