Where did Christian Universalism come from? - New or old?

[hies]

That is not what the bible says:

Revelation 20:12-15​

King James Version​

​

12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Maybe in the Hies bible, but in Gods word death and the grave are destroyed first- then with death no longer in existence- those not found in the book are cast into the lake of fire!

Revelation 14:9-11​

King James Version​

​

9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

Despite your quite fanciful reinterpretation of this passage, anyuone reading this without bias conclude that those who take the mark suffer forever and ever.

Dead don't suffer- only the living. That is basic God given thought all mankind has.

There can't be two second deaths. When the Bible says "death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death", it means that everyone dead and in hell is cast into the lake of fire, which works perfectly with this verse:

"But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death." - Revelation 21:8 KJV

How could they experience "the second death" if "death and hell" already experienced "the second death", if "death and hell" was not referring to the people in it?

 

[hies]

That is not what the bible says:

Revelation 20:12-15​

King James Version​

​

12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Maybe in the Hies bible, but in Gods word death and the grave are destroyed first- then with death no longer in existence- those not found in the book are cast into the lake of fire!

Revelation 14:9-11​

King James Version​

​

9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

Despite your quite fanciful reinterpretation of this passage, anyuone reading this without bias conclude that those who take the mark suffer forever and ever.

Dead don't suffer- only the living. That is basic God given thought all mankind has.

Also in Revelation 14:11 it's clearly referring to what happened to Edom:
"It shall not be quenched night nor day; the smoke thereof shall go up for ever: from generation to generation it shall lie waste; none shall pass through it for ever and ever." - Isaiah 34:10

As in it will be utterly destroyed. Sure, the land still exists, but it's no longer Edom's. The nation of Edom has been utterly destroyed.

The Bible clearly says their souls will be utterly destroyed, killed, and that they do not have immortality (which is much more than just a high quality of life, like eternal life).

When it refers to eternal punishment, it's like an indefinite prison sentence. They don't need to be conscious for it.

So there's no reason to think they're conscious. Not a single verse implies they are. Every verse clearly suggests they will be destroyed completely, their soul will be killed, they will be utterly ruined, and experience the second (permanent) death. Honestly I don't think it could be any clearer. So I'm not twisting scripture. I'm simply just reading it for what it says.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

There can't be two second deaths. When the Bible says "death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death", it means that everyone dead and in hell is cast into the lake of fire, which works perfectly with this verse:

"But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death." - Revelation 21:8 KJV

How could they experience "the second death" if "death and hell" already experienced "the second death", if "death and hell" was not referring to the people in it?

Now let me play grammar school English teacher as you seem woefully inadequate in basic grammar.

I agree there can be no 2 second deaths.

We see the first mention of the second death- when death and the grave are destroyed before people are cast into the lake of fire.

Now let us look at the REv. 21 verse above.

Now an inviolate rule of grammar is when their is a descritpive in a sentence- it must go back to its nearest antecedent unless the
sentence so requires it to not.

The desriptive here is the second death and it refers back to the lake which burns with fire and brimstone. See this is why throughout the two millenia, the believing church has preached a never ending existence in teh lake of fire.

also did you notice that little word "part"?
meros (Key)
Part of Speech
neuter noun
Root Word (Etymology)
From an obsolete but more primary form of meiromai (to get as a section or allotment)

The KJV translates Strong's G3313 in the following manner: part (24x), portion (3x), coast (3x), behalf (2x), respect (2x), miscellaneous (9x).
Outline of Biblical Usage [?]

1. a part
   1. a part due or assigned to one
   2. lot, destiny
2. one of the constituent parts of a whole
   1. in part, partly, in a measure, to some degree, as respects a part, severally, individually
   2. any particular, in regard to this, in this respect

This word has a modern picture of a place of land. Their lot, destiny, portion, habitation.

You can try to reinterpret, but the second death is the lake of fire and not some eternal death or cessation of existence. It just doesn't jube with the bible and how they used words in their understanding. One has to keep this in the forefront.

when we say in english destroyed- in the biblical times it did not always mean cessation or complete destruction.

 

[hies]

Now let me play grammar school English teacher as you seem woefully inadequate in basic grammar.

I agree there can be no 2 second deaths.

We see the first mention of the second death- when death and the grave are destroyed before people are cast into the lake of fire.

Now let us look at the REv. 21 verse above.

Now an inviolate rule of grammar is when their is a descritpive in a sentence- it must go back to its nearest antecedent unless the
sentence so requires it to not.

The desriptive here is the second death and it refers back to the lake which burns with fire and brimstone. See this is why throughout the two millenia, the believing church has preached a never ending existence in teh lake of fire.

also did you notice that little word "part"?
meros (Key)
Part of Speech
neuter noun
Root Word (Etymology)
From an obsolete but more primary form of meiromai (to get as a section or allotment)

The KJV translates Strong's G3313 in the following manner: part (24x), portion (3x), coast (3x), behalf (2x), respect (2x), miscellaneous (9x).
Outline of Biblical Usage [?]

1. a part
   1. a part due or assigned to one
   2. lot, destiny
2. one of the constituent parts of a whole
   1. in part, partly, in a measure, to some degree, as respects a part, severally, individually
   2. any particular, in regard to this, in this respect

This word has a modern picture of a place of land. Their lot, destiny, portion, habitation.

You can try to reinterpret, but the second death is the lake of fire and not some eternal death or cessation of existence. It just doesn't jube with the bible and how they used words in their understanding. One has to keep this in the forefront.

when we say in english destroyed- in the biblical times it did not always mean cessation or complete destruction.

Yes, their portion, lot, destiny, is to experience the second death, which is the lake of fire. Death and hell refers to the people in it.

You can try to say "death just means separation", but then you'd be the one twisting scriptures and redefining what words mean. But I'll play your game. How can mortal souls that depend on God to sustain their existence survive if they're separated from him who sustains their soul's existence?

"Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen." - 1 Timothy 6:16

God alone is immortal. Our souls are not immortal. Separated from God, the sustainer of all things (including the existence of the soul), how will they sustain their soul's existence, since only God is immortal?

Also, even if death and hell referred to places rather than the people in them, it would just mean that those places get destroyed. No longer will anyone reside in hell or the grave (where the soul can still exist while it waits for God's judgement). No longer will anyone go to them. They all get sent to the lake of fire, which is the second death. It wouldn't mean that souls can't be destroyed (since that isn't even true for those who go to death or hell anyway). It would simply just mean that hell and the grave don't exist anymore. If this is the meaning you take, that "death and hell cease to exist", then that also applies to the people thrown into the lake of fire and not just to "death and hell", as they will also experience the second death, and "cease to exist".

So either way you look at it, it means they will be completely annihilated.

 

[Dan Clarkston]

Annihilationism is the gateway drug to full-blown Christian Universalism.

Yep, it's one of satan's many tricks (false doctrine)

There can't be two second deaths. When the Bible says "death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death", it means that everyone dead and in hell is cast into the lake of fire, which works perfectly with this verse:

"But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death." - Revelation 21:8 KJV

How could they experience "the second death" if "death and hell" already experienced "the second death", if "death and hell" was not referring to the people in it?

Ah, ye olde wisdom of man being taught as though it were the wisdom of God.

1 Corinthians 2:14
But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

"Death' in the second death is speaking of spiritual death as in being separated from God.

When they died they were thrown in to hell which is the first time they were separated from God.

Then, God raises each of them up to His Throne to be judged, and then they are separated from God (spiritual death) a second time and that will be permanent separation from the Lord.

After that they get the reward their father satan gets which is being tormented in hell for all eternity .

Those teaching annihilationism are teaching heresy that tricks unbelievers in to never getting born again and they will get the reward their father satan gets.

 

[hies]

Ah, ye olde wisdom of man being taught as though it were the wisdom of God.

1 Corinthians 2:14
But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

Ah, the good old "demonize those who disagree with me"

If I contradicted what the Bible said you should have pointed it out like Jesus did instead of demonizing me for disagreeing with what you've been taught to believe.

But I'm glad this minor dispute on what scripture says has exposed so many hypocrites. I haven't demonized any of you, but I'm being demonized for saying what the Bible quite literally says.

 

[hies]

"Death' in the second death is speaking of spiritual death as in being separated from God.

When they died they were thrown in to hell which is the first time they were separated from God.

Then, God raises each of them up to His Throne to be judged, and then they are separated from God (spiritual death) a second time and that will be permanent separation from the Lord.

After that they get the reward their father satan gets which is being tormented in hell for all eternity .

Read this post. I already addressed why you're wrong: Where did Christian Universalism come from? - New or old?

Those teaching annihilationism are teaching heresy that tricks unbelievers in to never getting born again and they will get the reward their father satan gets.

How does it do that?
Also do you believe that repenting out of fear of being punished is true repentance? It's quite contradictory if you think about it. If someone wants to steal money, but chooses not to because they're too afraid of being caught, then they haven't really repented, have they? They would still do it if they could get away with it. True repentance comes from seeing God's kindness, love, mercy, and grace in contrast to how vile and evil you are.

Oh I see we already had this conversation: Apokatastasis in the Bible

Thanks for not replying to me or listening to me!

"Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions." - Proverbs 18:2

 

[Dan Clarkston]

I'm being demonized for saying what the Bible quite literally says.

You've been demonized by demons for saying what the Bible does NOT say.
You are very con fused

Just like OSAS, those believing annihilationism must ignore portions of scripture that does not fit their eisegesis. Sad.

Jesus says those that go to hell will burn in fire that shall NOT be quenched into everlasting punishment

Mark 9:43-44
And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

Matthew 25:46
And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

2 Thessalonians 1:9
Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

Texts like Jude 6, Matthew 8:12, Matthew 22:13, and Matthew 25:30, and 2 Thessalonians 1:9 show that darkness signifies a state of deprivation and distress, not of destruction in the sense of ceasing to exist. Only those who exist can weep and gnash their teeth, as those banished into the darkness are said to do.

Luke 16:22–24 shows that fire signifies continued existence in pain as Revelation 14:10 with 19:20 and 20:10, and Matthew 13:42, 50, confirm this.

Another good case against annihilationism is ”And the smoke of their torment rises forever and ever” in Rev. 14:11.

 

[hies]

You've been demonized by demons for saying what the Bible does NOT say.
You are very con fused

Just like OSAS, those believing annihilationism must ignore portions of scripture that does not fit their eisegesis. Sad.

Jesus says those that go to hell will burn in fire that shall NOT be quenched into everlasting punishment

Mark 9:43-44
And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

Matthew 25:46
And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

2 Thessalonians 1:9
Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

Texts like Jude 6, Matthew 8:12, Matthew 22:13, and Matthew 25:30, and 2 Thessalonians 1:9 show that darkness signifies a state of deprivation and distress, not of destruction in the sense of ceasing to exist. Only those who exist can weep and gnash their teeth, as those banished into the darkness are said to do.

Luke 16:22–24 shows that fire signifies continued existence in pain as Revelation 14:10 with 19:20 and 20:10, and Matthew 13:42, 50, confirm this.

Another good case against annihilationism is ”And the smoke of their torment rises forever and ever” in Rev. 14:11.

Yeah I already addressed that one too: Where did Christian Universalism come from? - New or old?

Lol. Have you read anything I've said in previous posts? You're very quick to judge. But slow to read and understand. (Proverbs 18:13 And James 1:19)

As for the story of Lazarus. He was in Hades. Not the lake of fire. I already addressed that one too. And as for those weeping and gnashing their teeth... As I had already addressed before the death will be slow and gradual.

Matthew 10:28 implies the soul will be killed
Romans 2:7 and 1 Timothy 6:16 implies the soul is not immortal. How then if they are separated from God will their soul's existence be sustained?

So even if you redefine death to mean separation it still means they'll be annihilated. Just like Edom.

I would also recommend you read this before you continue to embarrass yourself and call the word of God demonic again: The Case for Annihilationism - Greg Boyd - ReKnew

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Yes, their portion, lot, destiny, is to experience the second death, which is the lake of fire. Death and hell refers to the people in it.

You can try to say "death just means separation", but then you'd be the one twisting scriptures and redefining what words mean. But I'll play your game. How can mortal souls that depend on God to sustain their existence survive if they're separated from him who sustains their soul's existence?

"Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen." - 1 Timothy 6:16

God alone is immortal. Our souls are not immortal. Separated from God, the sustainer of all things (including the existence of the soul), how will they sustain their soul's existence, since only God is immortal?

Also, even if death and hell referred to places rather than the people in them, it would just mean that those places get destroyed. No longer will anyone reside in hell or the grave (where the soul can still exist while it waits for God's judgement). No longer will anyone go to them. They all get sent to the lake of fire, which is the second death. It wouldn't mean that souls can't be destroyed (since that isn't even true for those who go to death or hell anyway). It would simply just mean that hell and the grave don't exist anymore. If this is the meaning you take, that "death and hell cease to exist", then that also applies to the people thrown into the lake of fire and not just to "death and hell", as they will also experience the second death, and "cease to exist".

So either way you look at it, it means they will be completely annihilated.

Well I guess we are at an end. You reinterpret passages like death and the grave to mean the people in them. To 99.999% of the followers of Jesus that is ludicrous.

You reinterpret Rev. 14:10-11 to mean something totally different than what is written.

We will find out in the end who has reinterpreted Scripture to their destruction and who is rightly understanding the Word of God. Have the last word if you wish.

 

[hies]

Well I guess we are at an end. You reinterpret passages like death and the grave to mean the people in them. To 99.999% of the followers of Jesus that is ludicrous.

You reinterpret Rev. 14:10-11 to mean something totally different than what is written.

We will find out in the end who has reinterpreted Scripture to their destruction and who is rightly understanding the Word of God. Have the last word if you wish.

I will have the last word. Thank you. Which is this:

I do not believe that my understanding of whether God's final judgement is ECT or Annihiliationism will be what earns me a ticket into heaven. Rather, I believe I will only enter heaven because of Jesus' sacrifice for me.

If one had to fully understand all of God's ways and judgements perfectly in order to go to heaven, then it would mean absolutely nobody is going there.

And while you say I reinterpret things; I beg to differ. I haven't reinterpreted anything. I have only said what the Bible actually says. However, even if your interpretation is true, then as I've just proven, it would still mean that annihilitaionism is true.

 

[Dan Clarkston]

it still means they'll be annihilated

Calling Jesus Christ a liar lets us know what spirit those that teach the false doctrines of annihilationism are of and it's not the Holy Spirit of Jesus Christ.

When you go south for spreading this false doctrine, you'll wake up then but it will be too late and according to Jesus your torment will be ever lasting because you will be alive and conscience to experience all the torture.

The smart people repent from claiming Jesus lied about hell, so when the future gets here we'll see who ends up where.

Besides, the rich man went to hell and was alive, conscience as was being tortured in the fire (Luke 16:19-31).

It's too bad the you people continue to claim Jesus Christ is a liar.

 

[hies]

Calling Jesus Christ a liar lets us know what spirit those that teach the false doctrines of annihilationism are of and it's not the Holy Spirit of Jesus Christ.

When you go south for spreading this false doctrine, you'll wake up then but it will be too late and according to Jesus your torment will be ever lasting because you will be alive and conscience to experience all the torture.

The smart people repent from claiming Jesus lied about hell, so when the future gets here we'll see who ends up where.

Besides, the rich man went to hell and was alive, conscience as was being tortured in the fire (Luke 16:19-31).

It's too bad the you people continue to claim Jesus Christ is a liar. View attachment 48353

I never said Jesus lied about hell or the lake of fire. Perhaps you should reread what I wrote here: Where did Christian Universalism come from? - New or old?

And here: Where did Christian Universalism come from? - New or old?

If I were you, I would repent of my pride, humble myself, and listen to what other people are saying, rather than demonizing them and condemning them to an unbiblical eternal conscious torment because they disagreed with me over a minor detail.

 

[Dan Clarkston]

I never said Jesus lied about hell

If one believes what the Lord says about hell... they could never embrace annihilationism

You cannot have it both ways.

Either you believe Jesus or you believe He is a liar.

One must believe Jesus lied in order to embrace annihilationism

 

[hies]

If one believes what the Lord says about hell... they could never embrace annihilationism

You cannot have it both ways.

Either you believe Jesus or you believe He is a liar.

One must believe Jesus lied in order to embrace annihilationism

No I believe what he said is annihilationism.

 

[St. SteVen]

From the OP.

Christian Universalism/Apokatastasis has roots in the early church in the east.
It was a leading theology in the east (Greek-speaking church) and was supported by many of
the Patristic Church Fathers, as I understand it.

"The Encyclopedia of Religious Knowledge" by Schaff-Herzog, 1908, volume 12, page 96 German theologian- Philip Schaff, Editor: "In the first five or six centuries of Christianity there were six theological schools, of which four (Alexandria, Antioch, Caesarea, and Edessa, or Nisibis) were Universalist, one (Ephesus) accepted conditional immortality; one (Carthage or Rome) taught endless punishment of the wicked. Other theological schools are mentioned as founded by Universalists, but their actual doctrine on this subject is not known."

The main Patristic supporters of the apokatastasis theory, such as Bardaisan, Clement, Origin, Didymus, St. Anthony, St. Pamphilus Martyr, Methodius, St. Macrina, St. Gregory of Nyssa (and probably the two other Cappadocians), St. Evagrius Ponticus, Diodore of Tarsus, Theodore of Mopsuestia, St. John of Jerusalem, Rufinus, St. Jerome and St. Augustine (at least initially) … Cassian, St. Issac of Nineveh, St. John of Dalyatha, Ps. Dionysius the Areopagite, probably St. Maximus the Confessor, up to John the Scot Eriugena, and many others, grounded their Christian doctrine of apokatastasis first of all in the Bible.
— Ramelli, Christian Doctrine, 11.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Is this news to you? What's your view?

Interesting that Christian Universalism is marginalized today.
There are three biblical views of the final judgment:
1) Damnationism
2) Annihilationism
3) Christian Universalism (UR)

All three views are in conflict with each other.
A forever burning hell is in conflict with complete annihilation.
And both are in conflict with ultimate restoration. (UR)

In my view Christian Universalism is the best match for the character of God.
A loving God doesn't toss his kids in a furnace and then blame it on them. IMHO


--- Addendum ---

Apokatastasis in the Bible​

I thought Apokatastasis was only a theological term from the early church. Now I come to find out that it is in the Bible as a word in the NT Greek text. Thanks to my good friend and dear brother @Chadrho for pointing it out. Here it is. Acts 3:21 NIV Heaven must receive him until the time...

Apokatastasis in the early church​

When many hear about Apokatastasis (the restoration of all things), Universalism, Christian Universalism, Universal Restoration, Universal Reconciliation, Ultimate Redemption, Ultimate Reconciliation, UR... There is an assumption that this is a new idea. Something modern liberal theologians...

[

 

[The Learner]

From the OP.

Christian Universalism/Apokatastasis has roots in the early church in the east.
It was a leading theology in the east (Greek-speaking church) and was supported by many of
the Patristic Church Fathers, as I understand it.

"The Encyclopedia of Religious Knowledge" by Schaff-Herzog, 1908, volume 12, page 96 German theologian- Philip Schaff, Editor: "In the first five or six centuries of Christianity there were six theological schools, of which four (Alexandria, Antioch, Caesarea, and Edessa, or Nisibis) were Universalist, one (Ephesus) accepted conditional immortality; one (Carthage or Rome) taught endless punishment of the wicked. Other theological schools are mentioned as founded by Universalists, but their actual doctrine on this subject is not known."

The main Patristic supporters of the apokatastasis theory, such as Bardaisan, Clement, Origin, Didymus, St. Anthony, St. Pamphilus Martyr, Methodius, St. Macrina, St. Gregory of Nyssa (and probably the two other Cappadocians), St. Evagrius Ponticus, Diodore of Tarsus, Theodore of Mopsuestia, St. John of Jerusalem, Rufinus, St. Jerome and St. Augustine (at least initially) … Cassian, St. Issac of Nineveh, St. John of Dalyatha, Ps. Dionysius the Areopagite, probably St. Maximus the Confessor, up to John the Scot Eriugena, and many others, grounded their Christian doctrine of apokatastasis first of all in the Bible.
— Ramelli, Christian Doctrine, 11.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Is this news to you? What's your view?

Interesting that Christian Universalism is marginalized today.
There are three biblical views of the final judgment:
1) Damnationism
2) Annihilationism
3) Christian Universalism (UR)

All three views are in conflict with each other.
A forever burning hell is in conflict with complete annihilation.
And both are in conflict with ultimate restoration. (UR)

In my view Christian Universalism is the best match for the character of God.
A loving God doesn't toss his kids in a furnace and then blame it on them. IMHO


--- Addendum ---

Apokatastasis in the Bible​

I thought Apokatastasis was only a theological term from the early church. Now I come to find out that it is in the Bible as a word in the NT Greek text. Thanks to my good friend and dear brother @Chadrho for pointing it out. Here it is. Acts 3:21 NIV Heaven must receive him until the time...

Apokatastasis in the early church​

When many hear about Apokatastasis (the restoration of all things), Universalism, Christian Universalism, Universal Restoration, Universal Reconciliation, Ultimate Redemption, Ultimate Reconciliation, UR... There is an assumption that this is a new idea. Something modern liberal theologians...

[

any quotes from those fathers with links to newadvent.org friend????

 

[The Learner]

Amazon.com

www.amazon.com

Has anyone read this?

 

[St. SteVen]

any quotes from those fathers with links to newadvent.org friend????

Yes.

Here are just a few quotes by the early church fathers, compiled by Gary Amirault’s diligent work, that discuss their beliefs about punishment and restoration in the afterlife:

The mass of men (Christians) say there is to be an end to punishment and to those who are punished.—St. Basil the Great
There are very many in our day, who though not denying the Holy Scriptures, do not believe in endless torments. — Augustine (354-430 A.D.)

For the wicked there are punishments, not perpetural, however, lest the immortality prepared for them should be a disadvantage, but they are to be purified for a brief period according to the amount of malice in their works. They shall therefore suffer punishment for a short space, but immortal blessedness having no end awaits them…the penalties to be inflicted for their many and grave sins are very far surpassed by the magnitude of the mercy to be showed to them. –Diodore of Tarsus, 320-394 A.D.

And God showed great kindness to man, in this, that He did not suffer him to continue being in sin forever; but as it were, by a kind of banishement, cast him out of paradise in order that, having punishment expiated within an appointed time, and having been disciplined, he should afterwards be recalled…just as a vessel, when one being fashioned it has some flaw, is remoulded or remade that it may become new and entire; so also it happens to man by death. For he is broken up by force, that in the resurrection he may be found whole; I mean spotless, righteous and immortal. –Theophilus of Antioch (168 A.D.)

Wherefore also he drove him out of paradise and removed him far from the tree of life, not because He envied him the tree of life, as some dare assert, but because He pitied him and desired that he should not be immortal and the evil interminable and irremediable. –Iraneaus of Lyons (182 A.D.)

These, if they will, may go Christ’s way, but if not let them go their way. In another place perhaps they shall be baptized with fire, that last baptism, which is not only painful, but enduring also; which eats up, as if it were hay, all defiled matter, and consumes all vanity and vice. –Gregory of Nazianzeu, Bishop of Constantinople. (330 to 390 A.D.) Oracles 39:19

The Word seems to me to lay down the doctrine of the perfect obliteration of wickedness, for if God shall be in all things that are, obviously wickedness shall not be in them. For it is necessary that at some time evil should be removed utterly and entirely from the realm of being.—St. Macrina the Blessed

In the end and consummation of the Universe all are to be restored into their original harmonious state, and we all shall be made one body and be united once more into a perfect man and the prayer of our Savior shall be fulfilled that all may be one. –St. Jerome, 331-420

For it is evident that God will in truth be all in all when there shall be no evil in existence, when every created being is at harmony with iteself and every tongue shall confess that Jesus Christ is Lord; when every creature shall have been made one body. –Gregory of Nyssa, 335-390

The wicked who have committed evil the whole period of their lives shall be punished till they learn that, by continuing in sin, they only continue in misery. And when, by this means, they shall have been brought to fear God, and to regard Him with good will, they shall obtain the enjoyment of His grace. –Theodore of Mopsuestia, 350-428

We can set no limits to the agency of the Redeemer to redeem, to rescue, to discipline in his work, and so will he continue to operate after this life. –Clement of Alexandria

Do not suppose that the soul is punished for endless eons (apeirou aionas) in Tartarus. Very properly, the soul is not punished to gratify the revenge of the divinity, but for the sake of healing. But we say that the soul is punished for an aionion period (aionios) calling its life and its allotted period of punishment, its aeon. –Olnmpiodorus (AD 550)

Wherefore, that at the same time liberty of free-will should be left to nature and yet the evil be purged away, the wisdom of God discovered this plan; to suffer man to do what he would, that having tasted the evil which he desired, and learning by experience for what wretchedness he had bartered away the blessings he had, he might of his own will hasten back with desire to the first blessedness …either being purged in this life through prayer and discipline, or after his departure hence through the furnace of cleansing fire.–Gregory of Nyssa (332-398 A.D.)

That in the world to come, those who have done evil all their life long, will be made worthy of the sweetness of the Divine bounty. For never would Christ have said, “You will never get out until you hqave paid the last penny” unless it were possible for us to get cleansed when we paid the debt. –Peter Chrysologus, 435

I know that most persons understand by the story of Nineveh and its king, the ultimate forgiveness of the devil and all rational creatures. –St. Jerome

“In the end or consummation of things, all shall be restored to their original state, and be again united in one body. We cannot be ignorant that Christ’s blood benefited the angels and those who are in hell; though we know not the manner in which it produced such effects. The apostate angels shall become such as they were created; and man, who has been cast out of paradise, shall be restored thither again. And this shall be accomplished in such a way, that all shall be united together by mutual charity, so that the members will delight in each other, and rejoice in each other’s promotion. The apostate angels, and the prince of this world, though now ungovernable, plunging themselves into the depths of sin, shall, in the end, embrace the happy dominion of Christ and His saints.” – COMMENTARY ON THE NEW TESTAMENT – Jerome (347-420 A.D.)

Our Lord is the One who delivers man [all men], and who heals the inventor of evil himself. — Gregory of Nyssa (332-398 A.D.), leading theologian of the Eastern Church

While the devil thought to kill One [Christ], he is deprived of all those cast out of hades, and he [the devil] sitting by the gates, sees all fettered beings led forth by the courage of the Saviour.–Athanasius, the Great Father of Orthodoxy

Our Lord descends, and was shut up in the eternal bars, in order that He might set free all who had been shut up… The Lord descended to the place of punishment and torment, in which was the rich man, in order to liberate the prisoners. –Jerome

In the liberation of all no one remains a captive! At the time of the Lord’s passion the devil alone was injured by losing all the of the captives he was keeping. –Didymus, 370 AD

While the devil imagined that he got a hold of Christ, he really lost all of those he was keeping. –St. Chrysostom, 398 AD

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Apokatastasis in the early church

When many hear about Apokatastasis (the restoration of all things), Universalism, Christian Universalism, Universal Restoration, Universal Reconciliation, Ultimate Redemption, Ultimate Reconciliation, UR... There is an assumption that this is a new idea. Something modern liberal theologians...

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