When will the "sudden destruction" from which "they will not escape" referenced in 1 Thess 5:2-3 occur and what is the scope of it?

[rwb]

You do realize that the word for spirit is air?

Yes, the breath of air breathed into our mortal body that makes us rational living souls, which means we have a mind. It is the mind (brain) in man which sends signals throughout our body, giving life to every part and organ. When the breath of air that gives our body life goes out of a man, his body is a corpse without life. Since the spirit (that breath that gives us life) returns to God who gave it after our body succumbs to death, mankind's spirit will return to God alive through the Holy Spirit in our spirit, still a living soul, but without a body, OR our spirit will return to God without life to remain in silence and darkness until the dead are bodily resurrected in an hour coming on the last day.

See Ecc 12:7

 

[Timtofly]

You're missing a key word in the verse which says "hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:" They KNOW and with GREAT FEAR that they shall be called to stand before God's face! That's why they long to hide, as if they could, because when they stand before Him at the GWTJ they will not receive God's mercy, but judgment in the lake of fire, that is the second death!

Yes, the same face over 3,000 years ago when Moses looked on that face and lived. The GWT judgment was not in Moses' time. So Revelation 6 is still not the event at the end of Revelation 20. Same face and throne, but totally different events. Exodus 33:11

"And the LORD spake unto Moses face to face, as a man speaketh unto his friend. And he turned again into the camp:"

John was pulling that description from the OT, no?

I am not missing that point. You are missing the point humans are still alive on the earth and continue to remain alive. The Lamb is now on earth to set up the throne in Jerusalem per Matthew 25:31.

"When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:"

The one on the throne is still God, and the Lamb is still Jesus Christ. Now all on earth can see God on the GWT and Jesus returned as King.

Now we see the angels gathering the sheep and goats for judgment in Jerusalem as that is how they are gathered out of all nations. They are not dead and ressurected. They are all hiding from both God and the Lamb. The angels bring them to Jerusalem.

The thief in the night moment is the 6th Seal.

After the 7th Seal is opened then the Trumpets start sounding. By the 7th Trumpet and after the 7 Thunders the majority of humanity will have been removed from the earth. The rebel angels are let out of their chains of darkness and the pit during the 5th Trumpet.

 

[Timtofly]

Yes, the breath of air breathed into our mortal body that makes us rational living souls, which means we have a mind. It is the mind (brain) in man which sends signals throughout our body, giving life to every part and organ. When the breath of air that gives our body life goes out of a man, his body is a corpse without life. Since the spirit (that breath that gives us life) returns to God who gave it after our body succumbs to death, mankind's spirit will return to God alive through the Holy Spirit in our spirit, still a living soul, but without a body, OR our spirit will return to God without life to remain in silence and darkness until the dead are bodily resurrected in an hour coming on the last day.

See Ecc 12:7

That is not our spirit though. That is only air. The soul is what leaves the body. The soul of those in Christ, leaves Adam's dead corruptible flesh for God's permanent incorruptible physical body. 2 Corinthians 5:1. The soul is distinct from the body, and both soul and body are distinct from the spirit. The spirit is put on at the Second Coming. That is what John is stating in the 5th Seal. It is symbolized with the putting on of the robe of white. Paul calls it mortal putting on immortality. The robe of white at that point allows us to shine as the stars per Daniel 12:3.

We are both physically and spiritually dead. We are in Adam's dead corruptible flesh. We don't have our spirit. We have the Holy Spirit instead of our spirit. We would be spiritually alive if we had our spirit. That is the point of being spiritually dead until born of the Spirit with the second birth.

 

[rwb]

That is not our spirit though. That is only air. The soul is what leaves the body.

Really? Why does Solomon say our spirit returns to God who have it after our body dies? Guess Solomon doesn't know as much as you do???

Ecclesiastes 12:7 (KJV) Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

 

[Timtofly]

Really? Why does Solomon say our spirit returns to God who have it after our body dies? Guess Solomon doesn't know as much as you do???

Ecclesiastes 12:7 (KJV) Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

The air, sure. We are spiritually dead. No getting past that point.

They could have also been talking about the Holy Spirit.

Your choice is either air or the Holy Spirit.

If you had your spirit, you would be spiritually alive and have no need for the Holy Spirit at all. You cannot claim to be spiritually dead and retain control of your spirit, making you spiritually alive.

Solomon had 700 hundred wives, and 300 concubines, of course he knew more than I have known. He was spiritually dead, unless you think he was not.

I have pointed out that every human since Seth had the Holy Spirit given to them since conception. It would return to God who gave it. But you all think that is nonsense even though I accept that is what Solomon is saying.

 

[rwb]

The air, sure. We are spiritually dead. No getting past that point.

They could have also been talking about the Holy Spirit.

Your choice is either air or the Holy Spirit.

If you had your spirit, you would be spiritually alive and have no need for the Holy Spirit at all. You cannot claim to be spiritually dead and retain control of your spirit, making you spiritually alive.

Solomon had 700 hundred wives, and 300 concubines, of course he knew more than I have known. He was spiritually dead, unless you think he was not.

I have pointed out that every human since Seth had the Holy Spirit given to them since conception. It would return to God who gave it. But you all think that is nonsense even though I accept that is what Solomon is saying.

Exactly Tim! We are spiritually dead before being born again through Christ's Spirit. We have only a natural spirit giving our body physical life. We who WERE DEAD spiritually in trespasses and sins had to be made to live spiritually, so that we could both know and enter the Kingdom of God spiritually. For the Kingdom of God is within you! How can our spirit be spiritually dead when we are physically alive? We are without knowledge of Christ who came to give us life. Being without knowledge of the Savior the spirit giving our body physical life in us, has no desire to turn to Christ repenting of our sins when we hear preaching of the Gospel in the power of the Holy Spirit.

This conversion from spiritual death to spiritual life that is found only in Christ is having part in His resurrection life, for He is the first resurrection of the dead who shall die no more.

It is not either air or the Holy Spirit Tim! It is the Holy Spirit entering into our spirit that we shall have eternal/never ending spiritual life through Him. Because being in us means He shall never leave us, even after our spirit giving our body life returns to God in heaven. If having only a spirit giving our body natural minds, thoughts, will and emotions, why would Paul write we were dead in trespasses and sins?

Reading the mind of Solomon through what he wrote and concluding he had not knowledge of God that could only come by the Spirit of God WITH him, shows you might lack knowledge of the power of God given man through His Spirit???

Ecclesiastes 2:26 (KJV) For God giveth to a man that is good in his sight wisdom, and knowledge, and but to the sinner he giveth travail, to gather and to heap up, that he may give to him that is good before God. This also is vanity and vexation of spirit.

Ecclesiastes 3:14 (KJV) I know that, whatsoever God doeth, it shall be for ever: nothing can be put to it, nor any thing taken from it: and God doeth it, that men should fear before him.

The last verse recorded in Ecclesiastes sums up well the FACT that Solomon was NOT spiritually dead as you assume. What Solomon understood and you appear not to, is while living in this age with both a spirit that gives physical life, and the Holy Spirit with/in us, giving us spiritual life, even though we know God and have entered into the spiritual Kingdom of God in us, we still sometimes choose to live according to our fleshly spirit rather than the Spirit of God in us. That's why the Bible has so many warnings written for us, because those whom God loves He chastens in this life.

Ecclesiastes 12:14 (KJV) For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil.

According to the words of Christ the Spirit of God was WITH the Old Covenant faithful before Christ's atonement. But after He resurrected and ascended to heaven He sent His Spirit to be IN men/women of faith. Every human is born with a spirit to give their body physical life. But only those who are born again through Christ's Spirit with the Old Covenant faithful, and in the New Covenant faithful have spiritual life through Him.

John 14:17 (KJV) Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

 

[Timtofly]

Exactly Tim! We are spiritually dead before being born again through Christ's Spirit. We have only a natural spirit giving our body physical life. We who WERE DEAD spiritually in trespasses and sins had to be made to live spiritually, so that we could both know and enter the Kingdom of God spiritually. For the Kingdom of God is within you! How can our spirit be spiritually dead when we are physically alive? We are without knowledge of Christ who came to give us life. Being without knowledge of the Savior the spirit giving our body physical life in us, has no desire to turn to Christ repenting of our sins when we hear preaching of the Gospel in the power of the Holy Spirit.

This conversion from spiritual death to spiritual life that is found only in Christ is having part in His resurrection life, for He is the first resurrection of the dead who shall die no more.

It is not either air or the Holy Spirit Tim! It is the Holy Spirit entering into our spirit that we shall have eternal/never ending spiritual life through Him. Because being in us means He shall never leave us, even after our spirit giving our body life returns to God in heaven. If having only a spirit giving our body natural minds, thoughts, will and emotions, why would Paul write we were dead in trespasses and sins?

Reading the mind of Solomon through what he wrote and concluding he had not knowledge of God that could only come by the Spirit of God WITH him, shows you might lack knowledge of the power of God given man through His Spirit???

Ecclesiastes 2:26 (KJV) For God giveth to a man that is good in his sight wisdom, and knowledge, and but to the sinner he giveth travail, to gather and to heap up, that he may give to him that is good before God. This also is vanity and vexation of spirit.

Ecclesiastes 3:14 (KJV) I know that, whatsoever God doeth, it shall be for ever: nothing can be put to it, nor any thing taken from it: and God doeth it, that men should fear before him.

The last verse recorded in Ecclesiastes sums up well the FACT that Solomon was NOT spiritually dead as you assume. What Solomon understood and you appear not to, is while living in this age with both a spirit that gives physical life, and the Holy Spirit with/in us, giving us spiritual life, even though we know God and have entered into the spiritual Kingdom of God in us, we still sometimes choose to live according to our fleshly spirit rather than the Spirit of God in us. That's why the Bible has so many warnings written for us, because those whom God loves He chastens in this life.

Ecclesiastes 12:14 (KJV) For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil.

According to the words of Christ the Spirit of God was WITH the Old Covenant faithful before Christ's atonement. But after He resurrected and ascended to heaven He sent His Spirit to be IN men/women of faith. Every human is born with a spirit to give their body physical life. But only those who are born again through Christ's Spirit with the Old Covenant faithful, and in the New Covenant faithful have spiritual life through Him.

John 14:17 (KJV) Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

No, we are not even born yet. You have to be born into God's family to be spiritually alive. If people are spiritually dead, they have been kicked out of God's family and in the LOF.

Adam was spiritually alive but died when he disobeyed God.

No such thing as a "fleshly spirit". Our spirit is in the presence of God. If it were dead it would be a demon or devil trying to possess other humans.

We are only born spiritually into God's family through Christ, and the work of the Holy Spirit. It is not a resurrection, because our spirit has always been with God since we were conceived. After physical death, we do not need the Holy Spirit, which returns to God.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I'm beginning to wonder if you really understand the meaning of Amillennialism??? Amils, such as myself, covenantee, WPM do NOT believe there will be a future millennium on this earth. Amillennial = no ONE thousand years on this earth or the one to come. Amil defines a thousand years of Rev as a long period of time that began with the first advent of Christ, I believe shall end in the days when the seventh trumpet shall begin to sound. Though there is a difference of opinion between myself and other Amils regarding the last day, all Amils agree a thousand years is symbolic of time that is of unknown length.

Though you call yourself Amil, and you do not believe a thousand years is ONE thousand literal years, beyond that it is hard to define your eschatological point of view. That is why I believe Amils are generally in disagreement with some of the doctrine you espouse, and still find agreement with much.

The thing that makes him different than people like you, me, covenantee, WPM, Christian Gedge and jeffweeder is that he is a futurist and we are not. For example, he sees the entire Olivet Discourse as being unfulfilled which Amils like you and me disagree with. We disagree with the partial preterists who say it was all fulfilled by 70 AD, also, even though they too are amillennialists. So, there are a variety of perspectives among amillennialists just as there are among premillennialists. With that said, I think it's safe to say that most amillennialists are not futurists like him. He is more like a premillennialist in that way.