When did this happen?

[ElieG12]

What do you think about when this did happen:

Hebrews 1:4 So he has become better than the angels to the extent that he has inherited a name more excellent than theirs.

1) Did that happen when Jesus was begotten (i.e. at the moment of his origin)?

2) Did that happen when he was exalted and crowned king in heaven?

... or in any other moment?

Let's talk about the implications of your answer to that question.

 

[Mr E]

What do you think about when this did happen:

. 1:4 So he has become better than the angels to the extent that he has inherited a name more excellent than theirs.

1) Did that happen when Jesus was begotten (i.e. at the moment of his origin)?

2) Did that happen when he was exalted and crowned king in heaven?

... or in any other moment?

Let's talk about the implications of your answer to that question.

I think the answer to your question is given in the preceding verse>>>

Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;

Verse 4 is actually just a continuation of the same premise.


The implications of the whole idea however, is profound entirely. It's the basis of the belief or understanding of the nature of the son of God being distinct from Him.

 

[ElieG12]

I think the answer to your question is given in the preceding verse>>>

Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;

Verse 4 is actually just a continuation of the same premise.


The implications of the whole idea however, is profound entirely. It's the basis of the belief or understanding of the nature of the son of God being distinct from Him.

Thanks for the reply.

Notice this verse:

Acts 4:12 Furthermore, there is no salvation in anyone else, for there is no other name under heaven that has been given among men by which we must get saved.

That name that implies salvation was given only AFTER Jesus' death and resurrection, not before. So, at that moment Jesus had THAT NAME given to him, since his name was given to us as a mean to be saved. After that event is, according to Hebrews 1:4, when Jesus became better (in that sense) than angels, not before, since before that moment Jesus' name didn't have any meaning for men and he was not in any sense, important to us, since we didn't even know who he was.

Pro. 30:4 (...) Who has established all the ends of the earth?
What is his name and the name of his son—if you know?

Now we know why Jesus was not better than angels before his name became important for our salvation ... it has nothing to do with the fact of Jesus being or being not an angel of God; So, quoting Hebrews 1:4 to support that idea is incorrect, because that is not what that verse is saying.

Hebrews 1:4 So he has become better than the angels to the extent that he has inherited a name more excellent than theirs.

 

[RedFan]

What do you think about when this did happen:

. 1:4 So he has become better than the angels to the extent that he has inherited a name more excellent than theirs.

1) Did that happen when Jesus was begotten (i.e. at the moment of his origin)?

2) Did that happen when he was exalted and crowned king in heaven?

... or in any other moment?

Let's talk about the implications of your answer to that question.

My vote is for the latter. As for the implications,

John 8:50 quotes Christ as declaring that he did not seek his own glory, suggesting that the sacrifice of Christ was purely an act of selfless love. Yet Heb. 12:2 suggests that Christ endured the cross “for the joy that was set before him,” i.e., exaltation to the right-hand seat in the throne room of God. What are the implications of that?

 

[ElieG12]

My vote is for the latter. As for the implications,

John 8:50 quotes Christ as declaring that he did not seek his own glory, suggesting that the sacrifice of Christ was purely an act of selfless love. Yet Heb. 12:2 suggests that Christ endured the cross “for the joy that was set before him,” i.e., exaltation to the right-hand seat in the throne room of God. What are the implications of that?

Implication: Jesus didn't become better than the angels before his death. (Hebrews 1:4)

Hebrews 1:9 You loved righteousness, and you hated lawlessness. That is why God, your God, anointed you with the oil of exultation more than your companions.

 

[RedFan]

I meant, what are the implications of the discrepancy between John 8:50 and Heb. 12:2? Why did he go to the cross? Selfless motivation (John) or selfish motivation (Hebrews)?

 

[ElieG12]

I meant, what are the implications of the discrepancy between John 8:50 and Heb. 12:2? Why did he go to the cross? Selfless motivation (John) or selfish motivation (Hebrews)?

Out of topic.

Anyway: Jesus came to earth to fulfill a mission. He knew that he would have to die, and then he would be resurrected and credit would be given for having fulfilled everything to the full.

Hebrews 5:7 During his life on earth, Christ offered up supplications and also petitions, with strong outcries and tears, to the One who was able to save him out of death, and he was favorably heard for his godly fear. 8 Although he was a son, he learned obedience from the things he suffered. 9 And after he had been made perfect, he became responsible for everlasting salvation to all those obeying him, 10 because he has been designated by God a high priest in the manner of Melchizedek.

The point of this topic is: when did Jesus become "better than the angels" (Hebrews 1:4)?

 

[RedFan]

I suppose it is out of topic. I'll start a new thread on it some day.

 

[ElieG12]

I suppose it is out of topic. I'll start a new thread on it some day.

And I will give the answer to your question as soon as you open that thread.

 

[ElieG12]

What do you think about when this did happen:

Hebrews 1:4 So he has become better than the angels to the extent that he has inherited a name more excellent than theirs.

1) Did that happen when Jesus was begotten (i.e. at the moment of his origin)?

2) Did that happen when he was exalted and crowned king in heaven?

... or in any other moment?

Let's talk about the implications of your answer to that question.

While some believers reject the notion that Jesus existed before his earthly life, others, including myself, affirm that Jesus was alongside God in heaven prior to the creation of the Universe. The belief in Jesus' pre-existence stands separate from the debate regarding whether Jesus (the Logos) had a beginning.

This discussion is for those who acknowledge Jesus' pre-existence:

Share your thoughts and the Scriptures that support your view:

When was Jesus elevated to "a higher position": in heaven before his earthly birth, during his life on Earth, or following his resurrection?

 

[RedFan]

While some believers reject the notion that Jesus existed before his earthly life, others, including myself, affirm that Jesus was alongside God in heaven prior to the creation of the Universe. The belief in Jesus' pre-existence stands separate from the debate regarding whether Jesus (the Logos) had a beginning.

This discussion is for those who acknowledge Jesus' pre-existence:

Share your thoughts and the Scriptures that support your view:

When was Jesus elevated to "a higher position": in heaven before his earthly birth, during his life on Earth, or following his resurrection?

I'm in that camp. And John 17:5 seems to support the notion.

 

[ElieG12]

I'm in that camp. And John 17:5 seems to support the notion.

So, what is your answer to the question: When was Jesus elevated to "a higher position": in heaven before his earthly birth, during his life on Earth, or following his resurrection?

 

[RedFan]

So, what is your answer to the question: When was Jesus elevated to "a higher position": in heaven before his earthly birth, during his life on Earth, or following his resurrection?

Saying that he was "elevated" to a higher position implies a prior point in time when he was not at that height. And I see no way such an elevation could have occurred before his earthly birth. The first (and only) time he assumed a lower position was upon becoming incarnate -- when he 'emptied himself" (as Paul aptly put it) of equality with God. So his "elevation" must have occurred either during his earthly life or after his resurrection.

As between those two remaining options, my vote is for the latter. What's yours?

 

[ElieG12]

Saying that he was "elevated" to a higher position implies a prior point in time when he was not at that height. And I see no way such an elevation could have occurred before his earthly birth. The first (and only) time he assumed a lower position was upon becoming incarnate -- when he 'emptied himself" (as Paul aptly put it) of equality with God. So his "elevation" must have occurred either during his earthly life or after his resurrection.

As between those two remaining options, my vote is for the latter. What's yours?

Same as yours: Jesus was elevated to a higher position after his resurrection, when he was exalted in heavens, firstly when he received the holy spirit from God and sent it to his followers:

Acts 2:33 Therefore, because he was exalted to the right hand of God and received the promised holy spirit from the Father, he has poured out what you see and hear.

... and secondly when he was enthrone as heavenly King in the last days:

Rev. 12:7 And war broke out in heaven: Michael and his angels battled with the dragon, and the dragon and its angels battled 8 but they did not prevail, nor was a place found for them any longer in heaven. 9 So down the great dragon was hurled, the original serpent, the one called Devil and Satan, who is misleading the entire inhabited earth; he was hurled down to the earth, and his angels were hurled down with him. 10 I heard a loud voice in heaven say: “Now have come to pass the salvation and the power and the Kingdom of our God and the authority of his Christ, because the accuser of our brothers has been hurled down, who accuses them day and night before our God!"

The question is: can the Supreme God (the Most High) be elevated to a higher status than He currently holds?
And if so, by whom?

 

[ElieG12]

Following his resurrection, Jesus directed his disciples to spread the message of the Kingdom to everyone, helping others to be Christians to be saved, baptizing them and teaching them the same things that they had learned.

Matt. 28:19 Go, therefore, and make disciples of people of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the holy spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all the things I have commanded you. (...)

This involved ensuring that all people understood Jesus had been granted divine authority to reign as the King of God's Kingdom, with his resurrection serving as evidence of this bestowed authority.

Acts 13:32 “So we are declaring to you the good news about the promise made to the forefathers. 33 God has completely fulfilled it to us, their children, by resurrecting Jesus; just as it is written in the second psalm: ‘You are my son; today I have become your father.’
... 17:31 Because he has set a day on which he purposes to judge the inhabited earth in righteousness by a man whom he has appointed, and he has provided a guarantee to all men by resurrecting him from the dead.

Rom. 1:3 concerning his Son, who came to be from the offspring of David according to the flesh, 4 but who with power was declared God’s Son according to the spirit of holiness by means of resurrection from the dead—yes, Jesus Christ our Lord.

Therefore Jesus said to them:

Matt. 28:18 (...) “All authority has been given me in heaven and on the earth. 19 Go, therefore (...) 20 (...) And look! I am with you all the days until the conclusion of the system of things.”

When did Jesus receive "all authority"?
Can God receive authority from someone else?

 

[ElieG12]

When Trinitarians cite Hebrews 1:5-8 to argue that Jesus did not receive life from God, they often omit the full context of the passage.

First, they typically do not mention that Hebrews 1:8,9 directly quotes Psalm 45:6,7, originally referring to a human king. This implies that Bible translations rendering it as "you, O God" are altering the text's meaning to suggest Jesus is called God. If true, it would mean the human king originally addressed would also be called God, which is absurd.

Second, Hebrews 1:9, part of the immediate context, states that Jesus' God anointed him more than other kings. This clearly shows that Hebrews 1 does not suggest Jesus lacks a higher authority, as Paul states in 1 Corinthians 11:3, where God is the head of Jesus as much as Christ is the head of the congregation.

Third, they omit Hebrews 1:4, part of the context, which states Jesus "became" heir to a better name. This implies a transformation in authority, as he received greater authority upon his resurrection, "becoming" superior according to the name he received.

Fourth, they overlook the context of Hebrews 1:2, which says Jesus is an heir of God. An heir receives from the owner, indicating his position is not equal to the one who grants the inheritance. In Psalm 2:8, Jehovah tells Jesus to ask for something, which he would receive as an inheritance.

Fifth, verse 3 of the context explains that after purifying us from sins, Jesus sat beside the Majesty in heaven. It is evident that the Majesty is the one beside whom Jesus was seated. Jehovah is the one who seated Jesus next to him, as clearly stated in Psalm 110:1,2.

Are Trinitarians genuinely confused? Are they deliberately attempting to manipulate the Bible's words to fit a narrative it doesn't convey, thus evading the truth? Living in falsehood is untenable; those who spread lies about God and His Son are collaborating with the Devil to prevent people from achieving salvation (John 17:3).

Rom. 4:23 However, the words “it was counted to him” were not written for his sake only, 24 but also for our sake, to whom it will be counted, because we believe in Him who raised Jesus our Lord up from the dead. 25 He was handed over for the sake of our trespasses and was raised up for the sake of declaring us righteous.
... 8:11 If, now, the spirit of him who raised up Jesus from the dead dwells in you, the one who raised up Christ Jesus from the dead will also make your mortal bodies alive through his spirit that resides in you.
... 10:9 For if you publicly declare with your mouth that Jesus is Lord, and exercise faith in your heart that God raised him up from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart one exercises faith for righteousness, but with the mouth one makes public declaration for salvation.