When did the 2nd temple literally initially cease being the holy place?

[Scott Downey]

God foreknows what He will do before the world was, and God makes sure it will happen.

Acts 15
12 Then all the multitude kept silent and listened to Barnabas and Paul declaring how many miracles and wonders God had worked through them among the Gentiles. 13 And after they had [c]become silent, James answered, saying, “Men and brethren, listen to me: 14 Simon has declared how God at the first visited the Gentiles to take out of them a people for His name. 15 And with this the words of the prophets agree, just as it is written:

16 ‘After this I will return
And will rebuild the tabernacle of David, which has fallen down;
I will rebuild its ruins,
And I will set it up;
17 So that the rest of mankind may seek the Lord,
Even all the Gentiles who are called by My name,
Says the [d]Lord who does all these things.’
18 [e]“Known to God from eternity are all His works. 19 Therefore I judge that we should not trouble those from among the Gentiles who are turning to God, 20 but that we write to them to abstain from things polluted by idols, from [f]sexual immorality, from things strangled, and from blood. 21 For Moses has had throughout many generations those who preach him in every city, being read in the synagogues every Sabbath.”

 

[Scott Downey]

People are elect and so they believe as they are taught by the Spirit to come to Christ.
One reason is that God creates in them a spirit teachable by His Spirit. God opens their heart to the gospel.
The work of God is that you believe in Christ. IF you do not believe, then God was not at work in you.
God has mercy and compassion on whom He will have mercy and compassion. And whom He wills He hardens.
God loves with His great love whom He will, that is why people are saved, God loved them with a very great love.

John 6

41 The Jews then [g]complained about Him, because He said, “I am the bread which came down from heaven.” 42 And they said, “Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How is it then that He says, ‘I have come down from heaven’?”

43 Jesus therefore answered and said to them, [h]“Do not murmur among yourselves. 44 No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day. 45 It is written in the prophets, ‘And they shall all be taught by God.’ Therefore everyone who [i]has heard and learned from the Father comes to Me. 46 Not that anyone has seen the Father, except He who is from God; He has seen the Father. 47 Most assuredly, I say to you, he who believes [j]in Me has everlasting life. 48 I am the bread of life.

God loved the whole world enough to send His Son to die, but when God manifests towards us individually His great love, we are going to be saved only by His mercy and grace.

Ephesians 1
And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins, 2 in which you once walked according to the [a]course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience, 3 among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others.

4 But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6 and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7 that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.

 

[Scott Downey]

Titus 3

3 For we ourselves were also once foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving various lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful and hating one another.

4 But when the kindness and the love of God our Savior toward man appeared,

5 not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit,

6 whom He poured out on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior,

7 that having been justified by His grace we should become heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

8 This is a faithful saying, and these things I want you to affirm constantly, that those who have believed in God should be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable to men.

 

[tailgator]

Years ago, the fact I have never in my life ever taken Matthew 24:15-21 to be involving the first century leading up to 70 AD, my position at the time for decades was this. Since Matthew 24:15-21 isn't involving the first century leading up to 70 AD, neither is Luke 21:20 involving the first century leading up to 70 AD. At least I was being consistent about things at the time, I guess is one way to look at it. But then it dawned on me the fact 70 AD actually happened in history, which was something I never denied. Therefore, how could it be reasonable that none of the prophecies in the Discourse involve what happened in 70 AD?

I then changed my mind about Luke 21:20 but have never changed my mind about Matthew 24:15-21, nor will I ever, since there is zero chance that I can be wrong about those verses that they don't involve the first century leading up to 70 AD.

In Matthew 24 when we get to verse 15, Jesus some 14 verses later is now talking about his 2nd coming, but some interpreters have Him in limbo where He can't seem to get out of the first century, as if the 2000 years that follow are insignificant. That He goes from the first century, skips what happens over the next 2000 years, which includes what 2 Thessalonians 2 is involving, but instead of focusing on any of that, He then focus' on His 2nd coming next. IOW, He skips major events that have to precede His 2nd coming,

And the funny thing about it, right before verse 15 He was just talking about the end of the age. What does the end of the age have to do with the first century and 70 AD, though? Why would He be talking about the end of the age one minute, then the next minute He's back talking about first century events? As if first century events have some type of relevance to what He was going on about in verse 14.

Matthew 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.
15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand: )

Look at the text. It is not reasonable that if Jesus is now focusing on the end of the age in verse 14 that He then shifts His focus back on the first century again. For what reason if the context pertaining to verse 14 has zero to do with the first century and 70 AD? That's like how Preterists argue that Matthew 24:34 is meaning the first century though the context of the surrounding verses are in regards to His 2nd coming. But let's just make verse 34 about the first century, regardless. Let's just make verse 15 about the first century, regardless. Who cares if Jesus was just speaking about the end of the age just a verse earlier. And maybe the reason He did that is because the end can't come until what verses 15-26 are involving are fulfilled first.

And if verses 15-26 have to do with the first century and 70 AD, thus is already fulfilled, what does that then have to do with the end can't come until those verses are fulfilled first? Nothing, that's what. The end meant in verse 14 certainly didn't follow 70 AD, though some Preterists might argue that it did. But the end meant in verse 14 for sure can follow the fulfillment of 2 Thessalonians 2:4 and what all that involves. And once again, it for sure can't follow 70 AD. And the funny thing about it, some of these interpreters fully agree that the end meant in verse 14 can't come until the fulfillment of 2 Thessalonians 2:4 and what all that involves. And still they insist verses 15-21 are involving the first century and 70 AD, which then has no connection with verse 14 whatsoever.

I've learned the Olivet discourse are events taking place in Israel for the final 42 months before Christs coming .The first event is the arrival of the false prophet .It is the second beast of revelation 13.The same false prophet in revelation which decieves the people to receive the mark of the beast.This also corresponds to Daniel 11:31 when the man of sins armed forces arrive in Israel.

Mark 13
5 And Jesus answering them began to say, Take heed lest any man deceive you:

6 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.




The next event ,is the christians are imprisoned and killed for their testimony.This is documented in revelation. 13,14,Daniel 11:33-35,Mark 13:9-13.


Mark 13
9 But take heed to yourselves: for they shall deliver you up to councils; and in the synagogues ye shall be beaten: and ye shall be brought before rulers and kings for my sake, for a testimony against them.

10 And the gospel must first be published among all nations.

11 But when they shall lead you, and deliver you up, take no thought beforehand what ye shall speak, neither do ye premeditate: but whatsoever shall be given you in that hour, that speak ye: for it is not ye that speak, but the Holy Ghost.

12 Now the brother shall betray the brother to death, and the father the son; and children shall rise up against their parents, and shall cause them to be put to death.

13 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.




During this persecution ,the king of the norths armed forces (the false prophet)will be bombing Israels neighbors .This corresponds to revelation 13:11-12 ,revelation 11:5-6,and Daniel 11:39.After 42 months ,the nations invade Israel ,ransacking the houses ,raping the women .This invasion is recorded in zech 14,Isaiah 13,Revelation 11, and the Olivet discourse in Luke 21:24.
After 3.5 days the king of the norths armed forces place the abomination of desolation in Jerusalem.Itbos recorded in the Olivet discourse,Daniel 11:44,Rev 6:13-14,Revelation:11:12-13 and many other prophecies throughout the Bible.


The Abomination of desolation which is placed in Jerusalem by the Israeli governments closest ally(king of the north) is Israels policy called the Samson option .This is what the great tribulation is all about.


The Samson Option (Hebrew: ברירת שמשון, romanized: b'rerat shimshon) is Israel's deterrence strategy of massive retaliation with nuclear weapons as a "last resort" against a country whose military has invaded and/or destroyed much of Israel.[1]

 

[grafted branch]

That is written to pregnant women, not to men.

Mat 24:19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
Mat 24:20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:

Traveling with a baby is difficult in winter, and traveling on the Sabbath was against the law.

If both Matthew 24:19 and 20 only applies to pregnant women then why not argue that greatest tribulation ever in verse 21 also only applies to pregnant women? I mean if only pregnant women are to pray about the AOD fleeing because it would be particularly difficult for them, then it would make sense that the greatest tribulation only applies to them also.

So what about verse 21? How can a man ever experience “great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be” when the tribulation for pregnant women is worse than any tribulation a man can experience?

 

[Wick Stick]

I disagree with that idea. I believe that once you start allowing for things like this then you can make scripture say whatever you want it to say.

Then you have it precisely backwards.

This doesn't cause us to set meaning for Scripture. It causes Scripture to set meaning in us and by extension the world.

 

[Davidpt]

Interpreting Matthew 24 in light of Luke 17. Except most probably won't read all of it because it is a bit lengthy. I can't fault them for that since I'm the same way at times in regards to other's posts if they are a bit lengthy. Unfortunately, there was no way to say all of these things below without it being lengthy. It is what it is.

Luke 17:22 And he said unto the disciples, The days will come, when ye shall desire to see one of the days of the Son of man, and ye shall not see it.

IMO, this verse is key---The days will come, when ye shall desire to see one of the days of the Son of man, and ye shall not see it.

Let's call the following A)

A) ye shall desire to see one of the days of the Son of man, and ye shall not see it.

Let's call the following B)

B) one of the days of the Son of man you long to see and finally get to see eventually.

Luke 17:23 And they shall say to you, See here; or, see there: go not after them, nor follow them.

A) fits this verse.

Luke 17:24 For as the lightning, that lighteneth out of the one part under heaven, shineth unto the other part under heaven; so shall also the Son of man be in his day.

B) fits this verse, keeping in mind He is meaning His disciples in verse 22. The lost, of course, don't desire to see the fulfillment of verse 24, but His disciples would. But let's don't interpret these things in a vacuum like Preterists do, then insist it is only meaning the disciples He was talking to at the time. As if there is no longer any such thing as disciples once all the disciples Jesus was talking to at the time died.



Luke 17:26 And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man.


This verse is also key, the fact it says this---so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man. Take note that it says days not day. Keeping in mind what Jesus said in verse 17. IOW, the days of the Son of man are also involving the days while He is away. Except those days are involving a time when you shall desire to see one of the days of the Son of man, meaning His return, except you shall not see it.

Luke 17:27 They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all.

We need to divide this verse into 2 parts, like such.

They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage

A) fits this part

until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all.

B) fits this part

Luke 17:28 Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded

A) fits this part

Luke 17:29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.

B) fits this part

Luke 17:30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.

B) fits this part

Luke 17:31 In that day, he which shall be upon the housetop, and his stuff in the house, let him not come down to take it away: and he that is in the field, let him likewise not return back.
32 Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it.
33 Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it.

All of these verses A) fits these since it would be ludicrous to apply these things to the 2nd coming, that when the 2nd coming happens, he which shall be upon the housetop, and his stuff in the house, let him not come down to take it away: and he that is in the field, let him likewise not return back. Not to mention, this in verse 33---Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it. As if that is applicable to the time of the 2nd coming.

Also note verse 32---Remember Lot's wife. What is Jesus' point by saying that? Lot's wife looked back, then look what happened because she did. The same concept can be found in verse 32 per this---let him likewise not return back. IOW, per verse 31 since it is meaning during great tribulation according to Matthew 24, to return back would be equivalent to falling away.

Luke 17:34 I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left.
35 Two women shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
36 Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
37 And they answered and said unto him, Where, Lord? And he said unto them, Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together.


All of these verses fit B).

Then compare what I have concluded here with what is recorded in Matthew 24. Everything I have involving A) here, so does Matthew 24 have these things involving A). Likewise, in regards to B) as well.

In Matthew 24 Jesus has Luke 17:31 being applied to the time of great tribulation. Makes perfect sense that He would because Luke 17:31 obviously can't fit the time of the 2nd coming. The lesson being taught here, that if you return back, just like what happened with Lot's wife, the same will happen to you in the end. You too will be destroyed. Which further proves that Matthew 24:15-21 isn't involving the first century leading up to 70 AD, since not one thing in all of Luke 17 is involving 70 AD. Keeping in mind that the majority of these things I brought up in Luke 17 are also recorded in Matthew 24.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Of course not, but only the elect whom He foreknows as His people will have faith.

I, and everyone else here, agree with that, but we apparently disagree on how people come to have faith. My point in bringing up Acts 17:30-31 was to show that there's no reason to think that 2 Peter 3:9 can't be saying that God desires for all people to repent when we know that He commands all people to repent.

Are you an open theist?

Open theism, also called free will theism and openness theology, is the belief that God does not exercise meticulous control of the universe but leaves it "open" for humans to make significant choices (free will) that impact their relationships with God and others. A corollary of this is that God has not predetermined the future. Open Theists further believe that this would imply that God does not know the future exhaustively. Proponents affirm that God is omniscient, but deny that this means that God knows everything that will happen.

No, I'm not. I believe that God predetermines some of the future, but not all of it. It appears that open theists would not agree with that. I also disagree with the idea that God doesn't know everything that will happen. He exists outside of time since He created time (only created things exist within the realm of time), so that's what makes it possible for Him to know the future.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Then you have it precisely backwards.

This doesn't cause us to set meaning for Scripture. It causes Scripture to set meaning in us and by extension the world.

I have no idea of what you're saying since you are being so vague. Can you clarify what you're saying here? Are you not allowing for the possibility of any given scripture passage to have a dual meaning or any given prophecy to have a dual fulfillment with the way you are looking at this?

 

[Davidpt]

God foreknows what He will do before the world was, and God makes sure it will happen.

But when you look at it like that, how then do you explain something like the following?

Genesis 6:5 And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.
6 And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.


God foreknew before the world was, thus saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. And saw that He repented that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart. Therefore, before the world was, that once the world actually exists, God then made sure these things would happen exactly like He saw they would. Why then did it repent Him to begin with that He made man on the earth, since He already knew, according to you, that He would repent making man on the earth before He even makes man upon the earth?

And what about a verse like this?

Jeremiah 31:34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

He being God and all, how do you figure He does this---and I will remember their sin no more? IOW, since He is all knowing, how can He then no longer remember some things?

 

[grafted branch]

Interpreting Matthew 24 in light of Luke 17. Except most probably won't read all of it because it is a bit lengthy. I can't fault them for that since I'm the same way at times in regards to other's posts if they are a bit lengthy. Unfortunately, there was no way to say all of these things below without it being lengthy. It is what it is.

Luke 17:22 And he said unto the disciples, The days will come, when ye shall desire to see one of the days of the Son of man, and ye shall not see it.

IMO, this verse is key---The days will come, when ye shall desire to see one of the days of the Son of man, and ye shall not see it.

Let's call the following A)

A) ye shall desire to see one of the days of the Son of man, and ye shall not see it.

Let's call the following B)

B) one of the days of the Son of man you long to see and finally get to see eventually.

Luke 17:23 And they shall say to you, See here; or, see there: go not after them, nor follow them.

A) fits this verse.

Luke 17:24 For as the lightning, that lighteneth out of the one part under heaven, shineth unto the other part under heaven; so shall also the Son of man be in his day.

B) fits this verse, keeping in mind He is meaning His disciples in verse 22. The lost, of course, don't desire to see the fulfillment of verse 24, but His disciples would. But let's don't interpret these things in a vacuum like Preterists do, then insist it is only meaning the disciples He was talking to at the time. As if there is no longer any such thing as disciples once all the disciples Jesus was talking to at the time died.



Luke 17:26 And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man.


This verse is also key, the fact it says this---so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man. Take note that it says days not day. Keeping in mind what Jesus said in verse 17. IOW, the days of the Son of man are also involving the days while He is away. Except those days are involving a time when you shall desire to see one of the days of the Son of man, meaning His return, except you shall not see it.

Luke 17:27 They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all.

We need to divide this verse into 2 parts, like such.

They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage

A) fits this part

until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all.

B) fits this part

Luke 17:28 Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded

A) fits this part

Luke 17:29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.

B) fits this part

Luke 17:30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.

B) fits this part

Luke 17:31 In that day, he which shall be upon the housetop, and his stuff in the house, let him not come down to take it away: and he that is in the field, let him likewise not return back.
32 Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it.
33 Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it.

All of these verses A) fits these since it would be ludicrous to apply these things to the 2nd coming, that when the 2nd coming happens, he which shall be upon the housetop, and his stuff in the house, let him not come down to take it away: and he that is in the field, let him likewise not return back. Not to mention, this in verse 33---Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it. As if that is applicable to the time of the 2nd coming.

Also note verse 32---Remember Lot's wife. What is Jesus' point by saying that? Lot's wife looked back, then look what happened because she did. The same concept can be found in verse 32 per this---let him likewise not return back. IOW, per verse 31 since it is meaning during great tribulation according to Matthew 24, to return back would be equivalent to falling away.

Luke 17:34 I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left.
35 Two women shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
36 Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
37 And they answered and said unto him, Where, Lord? And he said unto them, Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together.


All of these verses fit B).

Then compare what I have concluded here with what is recorded in Matthew 24. Everything I have involving A) here, so does Matthew 24 have these things involving A). Likewise, in regards to B) as well.

In Matthew 24 Jesus has Luke 17:31 being applied to the time of great tribulation. Makes perfect sense that He would because Luke 17:31 obviously can't fit the time of the 2nd coming. The lesson being taught here, that if you return back, just like what happened with Lot's wife, the same will happen to you in the end. You too will be destroyed. Which further proves that Matthew 24:15-21 isn't involving the first century leading up to 70 AD, since not one thing in all of Luke 17 is involving 70 AD. Keeping in mind that the majority of these things I brought up in Luke 17 are also recorded in Matthew 24.

If I’m following your line of thinking you have option A) meaning the days Jesus was on earth before the cross and option B) as the future coming of Christ. You then have Luke 17:22 meaning that the disciples will desire to see either a day when Jesus was on earth, (A)), or they will desire to see His future coming, (B)), and that is how the verse following verse 22 are to be divided up.
If that’s correct, the problem I see is that you have Luke 17:30, which is the revealing of the Son of man as, B), future. But then you say verses 31-33, where the fleeing happens, should be applied to option A), when Jesus was on earth in the past. You would need an option C) if you have the AOD fleeing occurring after A) but before B).
When do you see the AOD fleeing occurring?

 

[Davidpt]

If I’m following your line of thinking you have option A) meaning the days Jesus was on earth before the cross and option B) as the future coming of Christ. You then have Luke 17:22 meaning that the disciples will desire to see either a day when Jesus was on earth, (A)), or they will desire to see His future coming, (B)), and that is how the verse following verse 22 are to be divided up.

No, I have A) involving while He is away during His ascension, and I have B) involving His return in the end of this age. Yet, some of it could probably overlap with when He walked the earth---such as this part--They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage. Obviously, those things would be equally true of when He walked the earth. But even so, my main point has to do with where Jesus placed these events in Matthew 24.

Except some argue that Luke 17:31 is not applicable to anything recorded in Matthew 24, or if it is applicable to something recorded in Matthew 24, it wouldn't be Matthew 24:17-18, though. It's obvious why they insist that is the case, because they clearly know that Luke 17:31 is not involving 70 AD, and that they have Matthew 24:17-18 involving 70 AD. It's called doctrinal bias, because, why else would they be agreeing Luke 17:31 is not applicable to 70 AD, while then insisting Matthew 24:17-18 is applicable to 70 AD? Mainly meaning someone such as @Spiritual Israelite in this case.

And like I pointed out in that other post, it would be ludricrous to apply Luke 17:31-33 to that of the 2nd coming. And if can't be applied to the 2nd coming IMO, nor to Matthew 24:15-21 according to some interpreters, what in the world is there to apply Luke 17:31-33 if not that? Why would Jesus mention it in both Luke 17 and Matthew 24 then it not even being applicable to anything in Matthew 24 though these other things I brought up per Luke 17 are applicable to things recorded in Matthew 24? Clearly, doctrinal bias' cause one to interpret things in a bizarre manner. I'm meaning that in general. Of course though, the same can probably be said about me since both Luke 21 and Matthew 24 Jesus says some of the same things, yet I argue differently in regards to that than I do per Luke 17 and Matthew 24. But look at the reasons I do. It mostly involves Luke 17:31-33 being why I do.


Now that I cleared that up, hopefully anyway, could you then ask your questions again but this time based on what my position is here? And then let's see where we are at that point.

 

[grafted branch]

No, I have A) involving while He is away during His ascension, and I have B) involving His return in the end of this age. Yet, some of it could probably overlap with when He walked the earth---such as this part--They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage. Obviously, those things would be equally true of when He walked the earth. But even so, my main point has to do with where Jesus placed these events in Matthew 24.

Except some argue that Luke 17:31 is not applicable to anything recorded in Matthew 24, or if it is applicable to something recorded in Matthew 24, it wouldn't be Matthew 24:17-18, though. It's obvious why they insist that is the case, because they clearly know that Luke 17:31 is not involving 70 AD, and that they have Matthew 24:17-18 involving 70 AD. It's called doctrinal bias, because, why else would they be agreeing Luke 17:31 is not applicable to 70 AD, while then insisting Matthew 24:17-18 is applicable to 70 AD? Mainly meaning someone such as @Spiritual Israelite in this case.

And like I pointed out in that other post, it would be ludricrous to apply Luke 17:31-33 to that of the 2nd coming. And if can't be applied to the 2nd coming IMO, nor to Matthew 24:15-21 according to some interpreters, what in the world is there to apply Luke 17:31-33 if not that? Why would Jesus mention it in both Luke 17 and Matthew 24 then it not even being applicable to anything in Matthew 24 though these other things I brought up per Luke 17 are applicable to things recorded in Matthew 24? Clearly, doctrinal bias' cause one to interpret things in a bizarre manner. I'm meaning that in general. Of course though, the same can probably be said about me since both Luke 21 and Matthew 24 Jesus says some of the same things, yet I argue differently in regards to that than I do per Luke 17 and Matthew 24. But look at the reasons I do. It mostly involves Luke 17:31-33 being why I do.


Now that I cleared that up, hopefully anyway, could you then ask your questions again but this time based on what my position is here? And then let's see where we are at that point.

Ok, let’s look at Luke 17:22.

Luke 17:22 And he said unto the disciples, The days will come, when ye shall desire to see one of the days of the Son of man, and ye shall not see it.

There is only one set of days that came for the disciples, they died before the second coming. Your option B) would have to take place in heaven while they are with Christ. Is that what you’re thinking?

As far as the fleeing in Luke 17:31, I do think it is the same fleeing in Matthew 24. I would say the revealing of the Son of man is the blindness in part being lifted from Israel. Notice Luke 17:34-36 we have the verses that some people associate with the rapture. The word “taken” <3880> can mean to receive something transmitted , to receive with the mind. Those “taken” had the Son of man revealed to them.

 

[tailgator]

Interpreting Matthew 24 in light of Luke 17. Except most probably won't read all of it because it is a bit lengthy. I can't fault them for that since I'm the same way at times in regards to other's posts if they are a bit lengthy. Unfortunately, there was no way to say all of these things below without it being lengthy. It is what it is.

Luke 17:22 And he said unto the disciples, The days will come, when ye shall desire to see one of the days of the Son of man, and ye shall not see it.

IMO, this verse is key---The days will come, when ye shall desire to see one of the days of the Son of man, and ye shall not see it.

Let's call the following A)

A) ye shall desire to see one of the days of the Son of man, and ye shall not see it.

Let's call the following B)

B) one of the days of the Son of man you long to see and finally get to see eventually.

Luke 17:23 And they shall say to you, See here; or, see there: go not after them, nor follow them.

A) fits this verse.

Luke 17:24 For as the lightning, that lighteneth out of the one part under heaven, shineth unto the other part under heaven; so shall also the Son of man be in his day.

B) fits this verse, keeping in mind He is meaning His disciples in verse 22. The lost, of course, don't desire to see the fulfillment of verse 24, but His disciples would. But let's don't interpret these things in a vacuum like Preterists do, then insist it is only meaning the disciples He was talking to at the time. As if there is no longer any such thing as disciples once all the disciples Jesus was talking to at the time died.



Luke 17:26 And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man.


This verse is also key, the fact it says this---so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man. Take note that it says days not day. Keeping in mind what Jesus said in verse 17. IOW, the days of the Son of man are also involving the days while He is away. Except those days are involving a time when you shall desire to see one of the days of the Son of man, meaning His return, except you shall not see it.

Luke 17:27 They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all.

We need to divide this verse into 2 parts, like such.

They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage

A) fits this part

until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all.

B) fits this part

Luke 17:28 Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded

A) fits this part

Luke 17:29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.

B) fits this part

Luke 17:30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.

B) fits this part

Luke 17:31 In that day, he which shall be upon the housetop, and his stuff in the house, let him not come down to take it away: and he that is in the field, let him likewise not return back.
32 Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it.
33 Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it.

All of these verses A) fits these since it would be ludicrous to apply these things to the 2nd coming, that when the 2nd coming happens, he which shall be upon the housetop, and his stuff in the house, let him not come down to take it away: and he that is in the field, let him likewise not return back. Not to mention, this in verse 33---Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it. As if that is applicable to the time of the 2nd coming.

Also note verse 32---Remember Lot's wife. What is Jesus' point by saying that? Lot's wife looked back, then look what happened because she did. The same concept can be found in verse 32 per this---let him likewise not return back. IOW, per verse 31 since it is meaning during great tribulation according to Matthew 24, to return back would be equivalent to falling away.

Luke 17:34 I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left.
35 Two women shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
36 Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
37 And they answered and said unto him, Where, Lord? And he said unto them, Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together.


All of these verses fit B).

Then compare what I have concluded here with what is recorded in Matthew 24. Everything I have involving A) here, so does Matthew 24 have these things involving A). Likewise, in regards to B) as well.

In Matthew 24 Jesus has Luke 17:31 being applied to the time of great tribulation. Makes perfect sense that He would because Luke 17:31 obviously can't fit the time of the 2nd coming. The lesson being taught here, that if you return back, just like what happened with Lot's wife, the same will happen to you in the end. You too will be destroyed. Which further proves that Matthew 24:15-21 isn't involving the first century leading up to 70 AD, since not one thing in all of Luke 17 is involving 70 AD. Keeping in mind that the majority of these things I brought up in Luke 17 are also recorded in Matthew 24.

I agree,the abomination of desolation is set up the same time as Jesus coming .
I had made another thread about the resurrection taking place at the time of great tribulation which is caused by the AOD...A lot of people didn't get it.

Mathew 24

15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)

16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:

17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:

18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.


Luke 17
30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.

31 In that day, he which shall be upon the housetop, and his stuff in the house, let him not come down to take it away: and he that is in the field, let him likewise not return back.


According to these verses,Jesus coming would be the same day as the day the Abomination of desolation (nuke)is placed in Jerusalem.
It would be the same day the earthquake shakes Jerusalem and a cloud ascends into heaven carrying two witnesses .
Funny thing about this day.You can determine what the date it is 1290 days prior if your watching as Jesus commanded in the gospel.But someone would really have to be paying close attention to what is going on or they will miss the opportunity.



Mark 13

32 But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.

33 Take ye heed, watch and pray: for ye know not when the time is.

34 For the Son of Man is as a man taking a far journey, who left his house, and gave authority to his servants, and to every man his work, and commanded the porter to watch.

35 Watch ye therefore: for ye know not when the master of the house cometh, at even, or at midnight, or at the cockcrowing, or in the morning:

36 Lest coming suddenly he find you sleeping.

37 And what I say unto you I say unto all, Watch.

 

[tailgator]

Ok, let’s look at Luke 17:22.

Luke 17:22 And he said unto the disciples, The days will come, when ye shall desire to see one of the days of the Son of man, and ye shall not see it.

There is only one set of days that came for the disciples, they died before the second coming. Your option B) would have to take place in heaven while they are with Christ. Is that what you’re thinking?

As far as the fleeing in Luke 17:31, I do think it is the same fleeing in Matthew 24. I would say the revealing of the Son of man is the blindness in part being lifted from Israel. Notice Luke 17:34-36 we have the verses that some people associate with the rapture. The word “taken” <3880> can mean to receive something transmitted , to receive with the mind. Those “taken” had the Son of man revealed to them.

The only people In Israel who will see Jesus are them who have learned to say blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord.

Everyone else who hadn't leaned to say that are only going to see this.When they see this,they will flee to the mountains as fast as they possibly can because there are dens under the mountains to hide in.

Revelation 6
12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;

16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

No, I have A) involving while He is away during His ascension, and I have B) involving His return in the end of this age. Yet, some of it could probably overlap with when He walked the earth---such as this part--They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage. Obviously, those things would be equally true of when He walked the earth. But even so, my main point has to do with where Jesus placed these events in Matthew 24.

Except some argue that Luke 17:31 is not applicable to anything recorded in Matthew 24, or if it is applicable to something recorded in Matthew 24, it wouldn't be Matthew 24:17-18, though. It's obvious why they insist that is the case, because they clearly know that Luke 17:31 is not involving 70 AD, and that they have Matthew 24:17-18 involving 70 AD. It's called doctrinal bias, because, why else would they be agreeing Luke 17:31 is not applicable to 70 AD, while then insisting Matthew 24:17-18 is applicable to 70 AD? Mainly meaning someone such as @Spiritual Israelite in this case.

LOL. Yet, somehow, when you don't relate Matthew 24:15-16 to Luke 21:20-21 and don't relate Matthew 24:19 to Luke 21:23, you don't think that is doctrinal bias, despite how hypocritical that is.

 

[grafted branch]

16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

Correct, and that was fulfilled in 70AD.

Luke 23:28But Jesus turning unto them said, Daughters of Jerusalem, weep not for me, but weep for yourselves, and for your children. 29For, behold, the days are coming, in the which they shall say, Blessed are the barren, and the wombs that never bare, and the paps which never gave suck. 30Then shall they begin to say to the mountains, Fall on us; and to the hills, Cover us.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Correct, and that was fulfilled in 70AD.

Luke 23:28But Jesus turning unto them said, Daughters of Jerusalem, weep not for me, but weep for yourselves, and for your children. 29For, behold, the days are coming, in the which they shall say, Blessed are the barren, and the wombs that never bare, and the paps which never gave suck. 30Then shall they begin to say to the mountains, Fall on us; and to the hills, Cover us.

Where did Jesus say there that what He was talking about there was "the wrath of the Lamb"? There was no "wrath of the Lamb" in 70 AD. That was the wrath of God the Father. The wrath of the Lamb will come down at Christ's future second coming.

2 Thessalonians 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, 8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: 9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; 10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

There are some similarities between what happened locally in 70 AD and what will happen globally at Christ's future second coming, so that's why we can sometimes see similar things being said about each event.

 

[Davidpt]

If I’m following your line of thinking you have option A) meaning the days Jesus was on earth before the cross and option B) as the future coming of Christ. You then have Luke 17:22 meaning that the disciples will desire to see either a day when Jesus was on earth, (A)), or they will desire to see His future coming, (B)), and that is how the verse following verse 22 are to be divided up.
If that’s correct, the problem I see is that you have Luke 17:30, which is the revealing of the Son of man as, B), future. But then you say verses 31-33, where the fleeing happens, should be applied to option A), when Jesus was on earth in the past. You would need an option C) if you have the AOD fleeing occurring after A) but before B).
When do you see the AOD fleeing occurring?

Luke 17:22 And he said unto the disciples, The days will come, when ye shall desire to see one of the days of the Son of man, and ye shall not see it.


Like I pointed out in another post, this verse is key the fact it says this---one of the days of the Son of man.

The first thing to keep in mind, the days of the Son of man involve His birth through His return. We can maybe break it down into 3 parts like such.

A) one of the days of the Son of Man involving His birth to His ascension. Thus He is physically present on the earth until He ascends back into heaven.

B) one of the days of the Son of Man involving His ascension, thus He is no longer physically present on the earth

C) one of the days of the Son of Man being when He returns in the end of this age. Now He is once again physically present on the earth, though some Amils don't agree that He is ever physically back on the earth again. Meaning when He is fulfilling the following, for example---until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all. I guess some Amils have Him doing that from up in the sky, as in an aerial assault the fact they have the entire planet engulfed in flames at the time, well at least the surface anyway. But not to get into that debate.

Getting back to what verse 22 says---The days will come, when ye shall desire to see one of the days of the Son of man, and ye shall not see it. Obviously, one of the days you would desire to see are more like the days involving A) except you can't if B) is true at the time. The next best thing is then C). Except C) can't arrive until B) has passed first. We then know that one of the days of the Son of man ye shall desire to see, yet shall not see it, is not B) because B) is one of the days of the Son of man preventing someone from still seeing A), assuming they were alive during A), and that C) hasn't even arrived yet. C) then being one of the days of the Son of man you desire to see at this point since A) is entirely in the past. Keeping in mind, that unless one is a full Preterist, all Christians are fully aware of C) and long to see that day.

 

[grafted branch]

Where did Jesus say there that what He was talking about there was "the wrath of the Lamb"? There was no "wrath of the Lamb" in 70 AD. That was the wrath of God the Father. The wrath of the Lamb will come down at Christ's future second coming.

2 Thessalonians 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, 8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: 9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; 10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

There are some similarities between what happened locally in 70 AD and what will happen globally at Christ's future second coming, so that's why we can sometimes see similar things being said about each event.

I do agree that there are similarities between what happened in 70AD and what will happen at the final coming of Christ.

In Luke 17:30 the Son of man is revealed which I do equate with the 2 Thessalonians 1:7 Lord Jesus being revealed. Luke 17:31 tells us the fleeing takes place after that revealing, which puts us back at 70AD.