When did the 2nd temple literally initially cease being the holy place?

[Wick Stick]

I certainly see it as problem, though.

Here is what the text plainly says.

Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes, when ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place. Then let them which be in Judea flea to the mountains.

LOL at myself for being so slow in having finally figured it out after all this time, that I'm not the one that needs to explain what these things mean if this is meaning spiritually rather than literally. No, it's the other way around instead. One needs to explain what these things mean if taken as literal. As in how these things don't defy logic. As if someone can be in the field at the time, then see from where they are, which, in some cases the temple might not even be within their line of site at the time to begin with, the AOD standing in the holy place, standing where it ought not, then being so alarmed by this that they have to get out of Dodge within that same split second. No time to even go back and get their clothes first.

An idea for your consideration:

Perhaps a literal fulfillment and a spiritual fulfillment are not mutually exclusive.

 

[Scott Downey]

In light of what I wrote, Christ returns at the final end of the evil age in which we live, when the church at large has become totally as corrupted as the unbelieving world. We do read that as the end approaches some will fall away and Peter warns us of the false teachers to come, along with scoffers. The church is definitely steadily falling away, we all can see it.

1 Tim 4:1
Now the Spirit [a]expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons, 2 speaking lies in hypocrisy, having their own conscience seared with a hot iron,

Luke 18
7 And shall God not avenge His own elect who cry out day and night to Him, though He bears long with them?
8 I tell you that He will avenge them speedily. Nevertheless, when the Son of Man comes, will He really find faith on the earth?”

 

[Scott Downey]

I have heard preaching saying the entire world is going to be Christianized, there will be this huge worldwide revival, and all people will believe in Christ and only then can Christ come. There was a youth pastor that taught those things., and the reason Christ had not yet returned is the church had not converted the world, being lazy. There would be no sudden destruction coming, no antichrist figure, no mark of the beast to buy or sell. Youth pastor said he was not going to preach scary stories to the kids about the end. Told the kids the world was getting better and better, not worse and worse with wonderful technology, and they would inherit all the wealth of this world, homes, lands, buildings, ruling over nations like despotic kings. He is a full preterist, and more strange stuff I won't get into.

I told him scripture says the opposite. Of course he did not believe me, so we parted ways, I am still friendly with the guy. What really got me was the 3 pastors and all the church elders sided with the youth pastor's ideas. I talked with those elders, and one of them told me we really don't know. They went by experiential circumstances to determine what was right and wrong. If the church was doing well, then the teaching was ok, as godly. Imagine that.

 

[Davidpt]

Oh, so only those who disagree with you have to explain why they interpret it the way they do, but you somehow don't have to explain why you interpret it the way you do? Yeah, that's fair.

You would think that if these things are to be taken literally rather than spiritually, it would be much easier to explain how the literal fits it better.

Matthew 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand: )
16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.
19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:


Let me guess, though. You take verses 15, 16, 19, and 20 literally but do not take verses 17 and 18 literally? Or in the event I'm wrong, you take all of these verses literally, you then need to explain how everyone in Judea could then literally see the AOD stand in the holy place, standing where it ought not, when for some of them the holy place might not have been within their line of sight to begin with? And then these same ones being so alarmed by what they see that they didn't see, they then only have a split second to decide what to do, they don't even have time to pack first.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

You would think that if these things are to be taken literally rather than spiritually, it would be much easier to explain how the literal fits it better.

It is and I have explained it to you many times. Why do you act otherwise?

Matthew 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand: )
16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.
19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:


Let me guess, though. You take verses 15, 16, 19, and 20 literally but do not take verses 17 and 18 literally?

Wrong. It's all meant to be taken literally. When did I say anything to suggest that I don't take verses 17 and 18 literally?

Or in the event I'm wrong,

You might as well just assume you're wrong from now on since you're wrong more often than you're right when it comes to what you think I believe.

you take all of these verses literally, you then need to explain how everyone in Judea could then literally see the AOD stand in the holy place, standing where it ought not, when for some of them the holy place might not have been within their line of sight to begin with? And then these same ones being so alarmed by what they see that they didn't see, they then only have a split second to decide what to do, they don't even have time to pack first.

Did you not read what I said in post 75 where I already addressed this? As long as you believe that Luke 21:20-24 is not a parallel passage, you're just not going to get it.

When do you plan on exegeting Matthew 24:15-21 and telling us exactly how you interpret it? It's truly unbelievable that you keep acting like you know what that passage is about, and, yet, you have never given your interpretation of it. You think it's spiritual. Okay, show how that can be the case by showing how it should be interpreted then if you want to be taken seriously.

 

[tailgator]

You would think that if these things are to be taken literally rather than spiritually, it would be much easier to explain how the literal fits it better.

Matthew 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand: )
16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.
19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:


Let me guess, though. You take verses 15, 16, 19, and 20 literally but do not take verses 17 and 18 literally? Or in the event I'm wrong, you take all of these verses literally, you then need to explain how everyone in Judea could then literally see the AOD stand in the holy place, standing where it ought not, when for some of them the holy place might not have been within their line of sight to begin with? And then these same ones being so alarmed by what they see that they didn't see, they then only have a split second to decide what to do, they don't even have time to pack first.

Have you noticed ,it's the people who are outside in the fields or on their rooftops that see the abomination of desolation set up in Jerusalem by the king of the norths armed forces?

What them in Judea are seeing from their fields and their rooftops is in the heavens where all can see.

Luke 21
25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;

26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.

 

[tailgator]

I have heard preaching saying the entire world is going to be Christianized, there will be this huge worldwide revival, and all people will believe in Christ and only then can Christ come. There was a youth pastor that taught those things., and the reason Christ had not yet returned is the church had not converted the world, being lazy. There would be no sudden destruction coming, no antichrist figure, no mark of the beast to buy or sell. Youth pastor said he was not going to preach scary stories to the kids about the end. Told the kids the world was getting better and better, not worse and worse with wonderful technology, and they would inherit all the wealth of this world, homes, lands, buildings, ruling over nations like despotic kings. He is a full preterist, and more strange stuff I won't get into.

I told him scripture says the opposite. Of course he did not believe me, so we parted ways, I am still friendly with the guy. What really got me was the 3 pastors and all the church elders sided with the youth pastor's ideas. I talked with those elders, and one of them told me we really don't know. They went by experiential circumstances to determine what was right and wrong. If the church was doing well, then the teaching was ok, as godly. Imagine that.

Muslims believe the whole world will convert to Islam.They believe all they have to do is defeat the Dajjal's armed forces and Jesus will kill the dajjal near the gate of Ludd

I expect that has a lot to do with their celebration in revelation.That will turn out to be an unexpected bad day for Muslims.

 

[Davidpt]

Have you noticed ,it's the people who are outside in the fields or on their rooftops that see the abomination of desolation set up in Jerusalem by the king of the norths armed forces?

What them in Judea are seeing from their fields and their rooftops is in the heavens where all can see.

Luke 21
25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;

26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.

Once again, you are applying that to the wrong era of time. Not according to me but according to Jesus in Matthew 24:29. He places those events after tribulation is in the past, not during it. Obviously then, the day of the Lord is in view in those verses that you submitted per Luke 21. The DOTL is post tribulation, not during tribulation nor pre tribulation.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Once again, you are applying that to the wrong era of time. Not according to me but according to Jesus in Matthew 24:29. He places those events after tribulation is in the past, not during it. Obviously then, the day of the Lord is in view in those verses that you submitted per Luke 21. The DOTL is post tribulation, not during tribulation nor pre tribulation.

Yep. If only he would have compared that passage to Matthew 24:29-31, he could have seen that Jesus said that what is described in Luke 21:25-26 (also described in Matthew 24:29) will happen "immediately after the tribulation of those days".

 

[tailgator]

Once again, you are applying that to the wrong era of time. Not according to me but according to Jesus in Matthew 24:29. He places those events after tribulation is in the past, not during it. Obviously then, the day of the Lord is in view in those verses that you submitted per Luke 21. The DOTL is post tribulation, not during tribulation nor pre tribulation.

Yes,I place these events after the tribulation of the saints in Israel.Ive explained to you using scripture in several posts that the christians in Israel are persecuted before the great tribulation even begins.The tribulation of the saints is over before the abomination of desolation is placed in Jerusalem by the armed forces.
I place the events the exact same place Jesus places it in the gospel.
After the persecution


Your not making the mistake of placing the abomination of desolation before the persecution of the saints now are you?

This is the order.​

First ,there is the tribulation which is the persecution of christians in Israel.​

Mark 13
9 But take heed to yourselves: for they shall deliver you up to councils; and in the synagogues ye shall be beaten: and ye shall be brought before rulers and kings for my sake, for a testimony against them.
10 And the gospel must first be published among all nations.
11 But when they shall lead you, and deliver you up, take no thought beforehand what ye shall speak, neither do ye premeditate: but whatsoever shall be given you in that hour, that speak ye: for it is not ye that speak, but the Holy Ghost.
12 Now the brother shall betray the brother to death, and the father the son; and children shall rise up against their parents, and shall cause them to be put to death.
13 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

Then after the persecution,tribulation had ended,then the abomination of desolation is set up in Jerusalem.​

Jesus continues-

14 But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains:
15 And let him that is on the housetop not go down into the house, neither enter therein, to take any thing out of his house:
16 And let him that is in the field not turn back again for to take up his garment.
17 But woe to them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
18 And pray ye that your flight be not in the winter.
19 For in those days shall be affliction, such as was not from the beginning of the creation which God created unto this time, neither shall be.




Now are you going to say Jesus is wrong or both of us are right,because I agree with Jesus.

 

[tailgator]

Once again, you are applying that to the wrong era of time. Not according to me but according to Jesus in Matthew 24:29. He places those events after tribulation is in the past, not during it. Obviously then, the day of the Lord is in view in those verses that you submitted per Luke 21. The DOTL is post tribulation, not during tribulation nor pre tribulation.

Ive quoted Jesus in more than one gospel,I quoted revelation 6 and Daniel 11-12 .All of them show the same thing .The christians in Israel are persecuted ,imprisoned and killed long before the great tribulation begins.They will been beheaded for their witness of Jesus before the armed forces even place the abomination of desolation in Jerusalem.

The saints tribulation will have ended before the great tribulation even begins.They will be dead.

 

[tailgator]

People keep saying I have it wrong when I agree with Jesus.hahaha.​

First comes the tribulation of the saints in Israel.​

Luke 21
12 But before all these, they shall lay their hands on you, and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues, and into prisons, being brought before kings and rulers for my name's sake.

13 And it shall turn to you for a testimony.

14 Settle it therefore in your hearts, not to meditate before what ye shall answer:

15 For I will give you a mouth and wisdom, which all your adversaries shall not be able to gainsay nor resist.

16 And ye shall be betrayed both by parents, and brethren, and kinsfolks, and friends; and some of you shall they cause to be put to death.

17 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake

After the christians tribulation has ended,then Jerusalem is desolated by the armed forces .Poof,up in smoke.​

Jesus continues​

20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.

21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.

22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.

23 But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people.

24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;

26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.

You going to explain how you think Jesus applied this to the wrong era of time?Hahaha.​

27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great

 

[tailgator]

Fact is the resurrection takes place at the time of the great tribulation as Daniel said.The Christians in israel will have been persecuted and killed for 42 months prior to the United States armed forces nuking Jerusalem.Jerusalem will have fallen to the Muslims 3.5 days before the US nukes it.

Cant say the unbelieving Jews don't deserve all this though after persecuting Christs followers,worshiping the beast and taking it's mark.

 

[Davidpt]

Cant say the unbelieving Jews don't deserve all this though after persecuting Christs followers,worshiping the beast and taking it's mark.

I don't share your thoughts on that since I don't see unbelieving Jews having anything to do with persecuting Christians one way or the other. Meaning in our day and time. That aside.

Daniel 12:1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.


The first thing to note is that we can't divorce any of this from the following, the fact Jesus, in Matthew 24, connected the abomination of desolation with great tribulation.

Daniel 12:11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.
12 Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.
13 But go thou thy way till the end be: for thou shalt rest, and stand in thy lot at the end of the days.

Just because these things are mentioned after verse 1 doesn't mean they don't fit during verse 1 nor verse 2. Take verse 13, for instance. Obviously, none of that can come to pass until verse 2 is fulfilled first. If verse 13 is relevant to verse 2, it only stands to reason that verse 11 is relevant to verse 1. And since verse 11 is meaning during verse 1, and that during verse 1 it leads to a resurrection event, we can know without a doubt that Matthew 24:15-21 is not involving 70 AD since nothing in Daniel 12 is involving 70 AD.


The following couldn't possibly be coincidences, thus nothing to see here.


Matthew 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand: )
Matthew 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

Daniel 12:1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.
Daniel 12:11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.

Both accounts are involving a time of trouble that can't be matched nor surpassed in greatness. Both accounts are involving an AOD during this time of trouble.

Then if we factor in the following. Both of these accounts lead to a resurrection of the dead at the end of this time of trouble.

Daniel 12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

Mark 13:27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

The following verse, verse 12 below, mentions waiting and coming to the 1335th day, where, in my mind it is obviously meaning verse 13, and also meaning 'at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book(verse 1) and 'some to everlasting life'(verse 2), that being when one cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days. And that there is no way to come to this 1335th day without it involving the 1290 days mentioned in verse 11 first.

Daniel 12:12 Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.

The way some try and get around all these things, they insist that the time period that Daniel 12:1 is involving is not the same time period that Matthew 24:21 is involving. Some even go as far as insisting that Daniel 12:11 is involving the days of Antiochus E4 in 167 BC. Talk about an interpretation being all over the place and having no sound context. As if 167 BC has any relevance to verse 1 and 2 in Daniel 12. Not to mention, the AOD Jesus mentioned in Matthew 24 has zero to do with what A4E did earlier in history since He placed that in the future.

 

[ewq1938]

I don't share your thoughts on that since I don't see unbelieving Jews having anything to do with persecuting Christians one way or the other. Meaning in our day and time. That aside.

What of this:

Mar_13:9 But take heed to yourselves: for they shall deliver you up to councils; and in the synagogues ye shall be beaten: and ye shall be brought before rulers and kings for my sake, for a testimony against them.

Luk_12:11 And when they bring you unto the synagogues, and unto magistrates, and powers, take ye no thought how or what thing ye shall answer, or what ye shall say:

 

[tailgator]

I don't share your thoughts on that since I don't see unbelieving Jews having anything to do with persecuting Christians one way or the other. Meaning in our day and time. That aside.

Daniel 12:1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.


The first thing to note is that we can't divorce any of this from the following, the fact Jesus, in Matthew 24, connected the abomination of desolation with great tribulation.

Daniel 12:11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.
12 Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.
13 But go thou thy way till the end be: for thou shalt rest, and stand in thy lot at the end of the days.

Just because these things are mentioned after verse 1 doesn't mean they don't fit during verse 1 nor verse 2. Take verse 13, for instance. Obviously, none of that can come to pass until verse 2 is fulfilled first. If verse 13 is relevant to verse 2, it only stands to reason that verse 11 is relevant to verse 1. And since verse 11 is meaning during verse 1, and that during verse 1 it leads to a resurrection event, we can know without a doubt that Matthew 24:15-21 is not involving 70 AD since nothing in Daniel 12 is involving 70 AD.


The following couldn't possibly be coincidences, thus nothing to see here.


Matthew 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand: )
Matthew 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

Daniel 12:1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.
Daniel 12:11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.

Both accounts are involving a time of trouble that can't be matched nor surpassed in greatness. Both accounts are involving an AOD during this time of trouble.

Then if we factor in the following. Both of these accounts lead to a resurrection of the dead at the end of this time of trouble.

Daniel 12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

Mark 13:27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

The following verse, verse 12 below, mentions waiting and coming to the 1335th day, where, in my mind it is obviously meaning verse 13, and also meaning 'at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book(verse 1) and 'some to everlasting life'(verse 2), that being when one cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days. And that there is no way to come to this 1335th day without it involving the 1290 days mentioned in verse 11 first.

Daniel 12:12 Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.

The way some try and get around all these things, they insist that the time period that Daniel 12:1 is involving is not the same time period that Matthew 24:21 is involving. Some even go as far as insisting that Daniel 12:11 is involving the days of Antiochus E4 in 167 BC. Talk about an interpretation being all over the place and having no sound context. As if 167 BC has any relevance to verse 1 and 2 in Daniel 12. Not to mention, the AOD Jesus mentioned in Matthew 24 has zero to do with what A4E did earlier in history since He placed that in the future.

First ,you say you don't see unbelieving Jews in Israel persecuting christians in Israel.


That flies in the face of every prophecy Jesus spoke in the gospel.How could you not believe Jesus that his followers would be beaten in the Jewish synagogues in Israel?

This isn't about 70 AD.This is about the signs leading up to Jesus coming.

Mark 13
9 But take heed to yourselves: for they shall deliver you up to councils; and in the synagogues ye shall be beaten: and ye shall be brought before rulers and kings for my sake, for a testimony against them.


It's not gentiles who are beating these christians in the synagogues.They are unbelieving Jews who are beating them.The christians in the coming years will be seen as enemies of the state of Israel because they warn the people not to worship the beast or take it's mark.They are doing as the word of God instructs ,to warm the people of the impending judgement.They warn the people to repent and worship God and to believe the gospel of Jesus Christ.They go into the synagogues as Jesus did to testify before as many as they can.
For that reason they are persecuted and killed by the state and unbelieving Jews.

They are rejected and hated by the same people who rejected and hated Jesus Christ.


Jesus prophecied of his followers being persecuted and killed in Israel by the unbelieving Jewish nation throughout his ministry.Not one word will fail.



Jesus followers,who Jesus said will be beaten in the synagogues,are doing exactly as they are told to do by the Lord.And they are killed for it .


Ezekiel 33
33 Again the word of the Lord came unto me, saying,

2 Son of man, speak to the children of thy people, and say unto them, When I bring the sword upon a land, if the people of the land take a man of their coasts, and set him for their watchman:

3 If when he seeth the sword come upon the land, he blow the trumpet, and warn the people;

4 Then whosoever heareth the sound of the trumpet, and taketh not warning; if the sword come, and take him away, his blood shall be upon his own head.

5 He heard the sound of the trumpet, and took not warning; his blood shall be upon him. But he that taketh warning shall deliver his soul.

6 But if the watchman see the sword come, and blow not the trumpet, and the people be not warned; if the sword come, and take any person from among them, he is taken away in his iniquity; but his blood will I require at the watchman's hand.

7 So thou, O son of man, I have set thee a watchman unto the house of Israel; therefore thou shalt hear the word at my mouth, and warn them from me.



What you are reading in the Olivet discourse is all future.The persecution of Jesus followers ,then the nations surrounding Israel invade capturing Jerusalem ,and then the abomination of desolation is placed and Jesus comes.All in that order.

The same saints you see reigning with Christ in revelation 20,are the same saints Jesus is speaking to in God's word.Just because Jesus said something 2000 years ago does not mean his words were not ment for someone to understand next year.

Mathew 10
21 And the brother shall deliver up the brother to death, and the father the child: and the children shall rise up against their parents, and cause them to be put to death.

22 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.

23 But when they persecute you in this city, flee ye into another: for verily I say unto you, Ye shall not have gone over the cities of Israel, till the Son of man be come.



And you say you can't see this being fulfilled.

 

[grafted branch]

I then responded to that via this.

Me:

To me 7. makes the most sense, pertaining to a third temple in the future. But not meaning a literal temple, but meaning a spiritual temple, the same temple meant in 2 Thessalonians 2:4 and what all that connects with. Falling away being one of those things

Matthew 24:20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:

I have listened to quite a few sermons and prayers but I have never heard anyone actually pray that their flight not be in the winter or on the sabbath. Since Matthew 24:20 is a command, I would think that someone who holds the view that the AOD happens in a spiritual temple would be earnestly praying about their flight.

A question for you David, have you been praying about your AOD flight? Maybe ask ChatGPT to search and find if there are any churches or published prayers that have prayed about their AOD flight.

 

[Davidpt]

First ,you say you don't see unbelieving Jews in Israel persecuting christians in Israel.


That flies in the face of every prophecy Jesus spoke in the gospel.How could you not believe Jesus that his followers would be beaten in the Jewish synagogues in Israel?

This isn't about 70 AD.This is about the signs leading up to Jesus coming.

Mark 13
9 But take heed to yourselves: for they shall deliver you up to councils; and in the synagogues ye shall be beaten: and ye shall be brought before rulers and kings for my sake, for a testimony against them.


It's not gentiles who are beating these christians in the synagogues.They are unbelieving Jews who are beating them.The christians in the coming years will be seen as enemies of the state of Israel because they warn the people not to worship the beast or take it's mark.They are doing as the word of God instructs ,to warm the people of the impending judgement.They warn the people to repent and worship God and to believe the gospel of Jesus Christ.They go into the synagogues as Jesus did to testify before as many as they can.
For that reason they are persecuted and killed by the state and unbelieving Jews.

They are rejected and hated by the same people who rejected and hated Jesus Christ.


Jesus prophecied of his followers being persecuted and killed in Israel by the unbelieving Jewish nation throughout his ministry.Not one word will fail.



Jesus followers,who Jesus said will be beaten in the synagogues,are doing exactly as they are told to do by the Lord.And they are killed for it .


Ezekiel 33
33 Again the word of the Lord came unto me, saying,

2 Son of man, speak to the children of thy people, and say unto them, When I bring the sword upon a land, if the people of the land take a man of their coasts, and set him for their watchman:

3 If when he seeth the sword come upon the land, he blow the trumpet, and warn the people;

4 Then whosoever heareth the sound of the trumpet, and taketh not warning; if the sword come, and take him away, his blood shall be upon his own head.

5 He heard the sound of the trumpet, and took not warning; his blood shall be upon him. But he that taketh warning shall deliver his soul.

6 But if the watchman see the sword come, and blow not the trumpet, and the people be not warned; if the sword come, and take any person from among them, he is taken away in his iniquity; but his blood will I require at the watchman's hand.

7 So thou, O son of man, I have set thee a watchman unto the house of Israel; therefore thou shalt hear the word at my mouth, and warn them from me.



What you are reading in the Olivet discourse is all future.The persecution of Jesus followers ,then the nations surrounding Israel invade capturing Jerusalem ,and then the abomination of desolation is placed and Jesus comes.All in that order.

The same saints you see reigning with Christ in revelation 20,are the same saints Jesus is speaking to in God's word.Just because Jesus said something 2000 years ago does not mean his words were not ment for someone to understand next year.

Mathew 10
21 And the brother shall deliver up the brother to death, and the father the child: and the children shall rise up against their parents, and cause them to be put to death.

22 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.

23 But when they persecute you in this city, flee ye into another: for verily I say unto you, Ye shall not have gone over the cities of Israel, till the Son of man be come.



And you say you can't see this being fulfilled.

I did say I don't see it being the case in our day and time. I never said it was not the case thousands of years ago, though. Per your view of these things what do you do with Ezekiel 38-39, for instance? That's involving the last days, the same last days we are currently in. I don't see anything in the text that leads me to believe that Jews are persecuting Christians.

The Jews have back in their homeland since 1948. And here it is almost some 80 years later. Have there been any cases you are aware of where Jews have been persecuting Christians during the past 80 years?

 

[lforrest]

I remember hearing from a Jewish source that some time after Christ''s death the Glory of God was seen departing the temple. The Glory moved over to Golgotha, where Jesus was crucified. And the Glory of the Spirit of God was seen there for three days. As if directing everyone to look at what happened there. Following that the Spirit did not return to the temple.

Does anyone else recall this event or where it was recorded?

 

[Davidpt]

Matthew 24:20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:

I have listened to quite a few sermons and prayers but I have never heard anyone actually pray that their flight not be in the winter or on the sabbath. Since Matthew 24:20 is a command, I would think that someone who holds the view that the AOD happens in a spiritual temple would be earnestly praying about their flight.

A question for you David, have you been praying about your AOD flight? Maybe ask ChatGPT to search and find if there are any churches or published prayers that have prayed about their AOD flight.

I get it that that sounds Jewish and first centuryish. How do we make sense of the following verse if we apply this to the first century?

Mark 13:20 And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved: but for the elect's sake, whom he hath chosen, he hath shortened the days.


Are we to understand this like such, keeping in mind, Christians weren't being slaughtered big time back then, unbelieving Jews were?

And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved: but for the unbelieving Jews sake, whom he hath chosen, he hath shortened the days.

Then notice 2 verses later, this.

Mark 13:22 For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect.

Obviously, whoever we take the elect to mean in verse 20, we need to take the elect to mean the same ones in verse 22. Should we then understand verse 22 like such then? That the following makes sense of the text rather than nonsense?

For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if it were possible, even the unbelieving Jews.

Then there is verse 27 to consider. Are we to then understand it like such? That the following makes sense of the text rather than nonsense?

And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his unbelieving Jews from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

My point then is this. In no way shape or form were Christians being threatened with extinction in the first century leading up to 70 AD, that unless those days were cut short, there might not be any more Christians remaining on the planet. Keeping in mind, these other verses I brought up prove that the elect can't be meaning the unbelieving Jews in the first century, therefore, the elect has to be meaning the saved, the church. And since this age isn't over yet, thus the worst is yet to come, maybe then Mark 13:20 will make sense to some of you if we apply that to the future rather than the past, especially with Revelation 13 in mind and that those that refuse to worship the beast are subject to being killed.