When are the dead and living in Christ caught up to the Lord?

[honeycomb]

An incorruptible body is an immortal body! You can't have an incorruptible, mortal body. Where do you come up with this stuff?

You still don’t understand. If you’re polite, we’ll continue discussing. Otherwise, no.

 

[honeycomb]

Eternal life = IMMORTALITY

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Because you said this after I gave scriptural proof …”Impossible! There is no way in the world that any mortals could survive this:”

Why should I quote the words of God to you if you believe the fulfillment of His words are impossible?

I provided evidence for why it is impossible using the words of God from 2 Peter 3:10-12 which indicates that the entire earth will be burned up when Jesus returns.

Only in your mind.

No, not only in my mind. You may have noticed there are others on this forum who agree with me on these things? It is not only in my mind, but also the minds of millions of other Christians who agree with my interpretation of John 5:28-29.

This is speaking of both resurrections, notice the word ALL that are in their graves.

Yes, but Jesus indicated that an hour is coming when all of the dead will be resurrected, not two separate hours as you believe. If your doctrine was true, then Jesus would have said "The HOURS are coming when all of the dead will be resurrected...", but He said "the HOUR is coming when all of the dead will be resurrected".

They inherit ALL things, including this earth.
Revelation 21:7
He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.

Yes, that is true, and that verse is related to inheriting the eternal new heavens and new earth after the thousand years.

But, this doesn't answer my question. You continue to try to avoid answering my questions. I asked you "Surely, 'the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world' that they inherit at that time is the kingdom of God, right?". So, what is your answer to that question? Is that kingdom prepared from the foundation of the world the kingdom of God? It clearly is, right? So, do you believe the sheep/righteous who inherit the kingdom of God at Christ's return have mortal or immortal bodies?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

You still don’t understand. If you’re polite, we’ll continue discussing. Otherwise, no.

There's no need to continue discussing since you clearly are not able to support your claims with scripture, as everyone here can see. No one here is going to agree that a spiritual, incorruptible body is not an immortal body.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Wrong.

Definition of the word incorruptible: not subject to death or decay; everlasting.

Explain how an incorruptible body can possibly not be immortal.

 

[honeycomb]

There's no need to continue discussing since you clearly are not able to support your claims with scripture, as everyone here can see. No one here is going to agree that a spiritual, incorruptible body is not an immortal body.

You just lack knowledge and don’t understand what I say.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Really? So where is a 1000 years mentioned there?

Nowhere, of course. Jesus references only a singular coming hour when all of the dead will be resurrected, not two separate hours when the dead will be resurrected, as premils believe.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

You just lack knowledge and don’t understand what I say.

Do you think anyone understands what you're saying when you try to say that an incorruptible body is not immortal?

 

[honeycomb]

Definition of the word incorruptible: not subject to death or decay; everlasting.

Explain how an incorruptible body can possibly not be immortal.

You‘ve just indicated you don’t want to hear from me. Why should I waste my time trying to teach you anything?

 

[honeycomb]

Do you think anyone understands what you're saying when you try to say that an incorruptible body is not immortal?

Many understand this.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

You‘ve just indicated you don’t want to hear from me. Why should I waste my time trying to teach you anything?

You shouldn't because you obviously have nothing to teach me. You have a belief all to yourself regarding an imaginary incorruptible, yet somehow not immortal body.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Many understand this.

Such as? Give me the name of any Bible commentator or teacher who says that a spiritual, incorruptible body is not immortal.

 

[WPM]

Right! I agree!

What happens to the righteous when Jesus comes? What happens to the wicked when Jesus comes?

 

[Stewardofthemystery]

Jesus says in Matthew 25:31-34, 41, 46, saying, “When the son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: and before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: and he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left. Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world … then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels … and these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.”

• This is referring to the second coming of the Lord Jesus Christ.
• Christ is coming in final and majestic glory to execute judgment.
• The Lord only encounters two types of people when He returns.
• These are both judged at His appearing.
• One group is portrayed as righteous and is the subject of blessing and reward.
• The other group is portrayed as wicked and is the subject of God’s wrath and punished.
• They are before the exact same throne at the exact same time.
• There is no gap of time in-between the judgment of the righteous and the judgment of the wicked.
• The good receive eternal life.
• The bad obtain eternal punishment.
• There is absolutely no mention of, or allowance made for, a third group.

Here is the seperate resurrection of the physically dead sinners….

But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

Here is the resurrection of the “rest of the dead”….

And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.

12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

 

[WPM]

Here is the seperate resurrection of the physically dead sinners….

But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

Here is the resurrection of the “rest of the dead”….

And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.

12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

And here is why Premillennialism should be rejected out of hand. Premillennialists dismiss passage after passage that clearly and explicitly depict a climatic return of the Lord Jesus Christ and defaults to their mistaken opinion of Revelation 20. They interpret the whole Bible through the lens of their faulty opinion of one symbolic chapter three chapters before the end of the book in the most figurative and obscure book in the Bible. That is all they have. They have zero corroboration in the rest of the Bible.

 

[WPM]

Here is the seperate resurrection of the physically dead sinners….

But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

Here is the resurrection of the “rest of the dead”….

And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.

12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

Before analyzing Matthew 25:31-34, 41, 46 further, a straight, yet important, question must be asked in relation to this familiar parable: Are the sheep (who we must all agree are the righteous) and the goats (who we must all agree are the wicked) standing before the same throne at the same time or are they standing before two different thrones separated by 1,000 years? The answer should be very simple to the unbiased / un-indoctrinated mind: the same throne at the same time. Furthermore, when does this all-encompassing event occur? Again, to those who view this passage in the straightforward manner that it is described, they can only have one answer: it is the one final future coming of Christ. This is plainly and unambiguously revealed in the text: “When the son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him.” It is at this climactic stage that all will finally see Christ resplendently “sit upon the throne of his glory” in judgment. It is then that He will judge all nations.

The Lord only encounters two types of people when He comes – saved and lost or, as it is put in this narrative, sheep and goats. The sheep enter into their eternal inheritance; the goats receive eternal punishment. Nothing could be simpler. Notwithstanding, Premils attempt to create a third group in order to sustain their belief that there is a future millennial age before the new earth that is populated by countless millions of wicked. They depict these as a company of mortals too wicked to be sheep (and therefore raptured) but also too good to be goats (and therefore be destroyed). However, Scripture knows nothing of such half-breeds. We all know there is no half-way house between salvation and being lost. Men are either one or the other. From the graphic detail of this reading we can only conclude: the full amount of the elect are the sheep and the full amount of the wicked are the goats. All men are found in one of these two categories.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Here is the seperate resurrection of the physically dead sinners….

But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

Here is the resurrection of the “rest of the dead”….

And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.

12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

So, in John 5:28-29, when Jesus said "the HOUR is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, and shall come forth", you think He actually meant "the HOURS are coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, and shall come forth"?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

And here is why Premillennialism should be rejected out of hand. Premillennialists dismiss passage after passage that clearly and explicitly depict a climatic return of the Lord Jesus Christ and defaults to their mistaken opinion of Revelation 20. They interpret the whole Bible through the lens of their faulty opinion of one symbolic chapter three chapters before the end of the book in the most figurative and obscure book in the Bible. That is all they have. They have zero corroboration in the rest of the Bible.

Exactly. A doctrine should be based on clear, explicit scripture and then we should use that foundational doctrinal base to help understand more difficult and debatable scripture found in highly symbolic books like Revelation, Daniel, Isaiah and Ezekiel.

Scripture explicitly teaches that Christ began reigning after His resurrection (Matthew 28:16-18, Ephesians 1:19-23, Col 1:12-13, Rev 1:5-6), so we should use that as part of the foundation of a passage like Revelation 20 that talks about Christ reigning. But, premils don't do that.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Before analyzing Matthew 25:31-34, 41, 46 further, a straight, yet important, question must be asked in relation to this familiar parable: Are the sheep (who we must all agree are the righteous) and the goats (who we must all agree are the wicked) standing before the same throne at the same time or are they standing before two different thrones separated by 1,000 years? The answer should be very simple to the unbiased / un-indoctrinated mind: the same throne at the same time. Furthermore, when does this all-encompassing event occur? Again, to those who view this passage in the straightforward manner that it is described, they can only have one answer: it is the one final future coming of Christ. This is plainly and unambiguously revealed in the text: “When the son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him.” It is at this climactic stage that all will finally see Christ resplendently “sit upon the throne of his glory” in judgment. It is then that He will judge all nations.

The Lord only encounters two types of people when He comes – saved and lost or, as it is put in this narrative, sheep and goats. The sheep enter into their eternal inheritance; the goats receive eternal punishment. Nothing could be simpler. Notwithstanding, Premils attempt to create a third group in order to sustain their belief that there is a future millennial age before the new earth that is populated by countless millions of wicked. They depict these as a company of mortals too wicked to be sheep (and therefore raptured) but also too good to be goats (and therefore be destroyed). However, Scripture knows nothing of such half-breeds. We all know there is no half-way house between salvation and being lost. Men are either one or the other. From the graphic detail of this reading we can only conclude: the full amount of the elect are the sheep and the full amount of the wicked are the goats. All men are found in one of these two categories.

Agree!

How can anyone think that this:

Matthew 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

Is a different event than this:

Revelation 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever....15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

And how can anyone think that this:

Matthew 25:34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:...And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

Is different than this:

1 Corinthians 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

These passages teach that all believers will have immortal bodies when they inherit the kingdom of God at Christ's second coming and all unbelievers will be cast into the lake of fire at that time. This does not allow for any mortals to populate a supposed earthly kingdom when Christ returns.

 

[Stewardofthemystery]

So, in John 5:28-29, when Jesus said "the HOUR is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, and shall come forth", you think He actually meant "the HOURS are coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, and shall come forth"?

The dead in Christ rise FIRST….

1 Thessalonians 4:16
For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

But the rest of the dead rise AFTER the thousand years…

Here is the seperate resurrection of the physically dead sinners….

“But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

Here is the resurrection of the “rest of the dead”….

And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.

12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.