When are the dead and living in Christ caught up to the Lord?

[Timtofly]

Are you in the pretrib camp then? That’s probably why we disagree in every possible way.

No, because they are wrong on the Second Coming.

You need to define tribulation. Why do you think you are going to escape being beheaded? Are you waiting to become a Christian by having your head chopped off?

Jesus and the angels are on the earth during Jacob's Trouble. Matthew 13 and Matthew 25 states that Jesus and the angels come to earth to gather the harvest. The church is not gathered after the Second Coming.

"He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man; The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one; The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels. As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world. The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth."

Both Jesus and Satan will be active on the earth after the Second Coming. The Second Coming is when Jesus brings the angels to earth with Him.

"When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left. Then shall the King say unto them."

The word "King" indicates Jesus is dealing directly with Jacob as their King, after the Second Coming.

At the Second Coming, 8 billion people are not just going to all die at the same time.

In the Seals it talks about 25%

In the Trumpets 33%.

In the Thunders ?%

In the vials by Armageddon 100%

If the Thunders were the next progression of 50% then each set of judgments remove 2 billion people. 25 % of 8 is 2. 33% of 6 is 2. 50% of 4 is 2. Then the last 2 are either marked or beheaded. That is a methodological and systematic removal of life given in Revelation.

If there are truly 2 billion born again believers currently on earth, then they all leave during the Seals. If there are 2 billion of Jacob who do not even know they are descendants of Jacob, all will be removed next. The remnant of 33% are not left on the earth, but are moved to safety during the Thunders and any control allowed by Satan. But the 66% of Jacob are also removed and tossed into the LOF. None of Jacob are left after the 6th Trumpet. Then we are told there are 7 Thunders, but not allowed to know what events take place on the earth. This would be the final harvest mentioned in Matthew 13. Keeping it equal the wheat and the tares would represent another 2 billion people literally removed from the earth, and not even on the earth when the 7th Trumpet sounds.

People claiming that Jesus is not on the earth and the angels are not on the earth after the 6th Seal, just don't make any sense. They then have to re-arrange the book to do some time pretzel twisting of events to fit their eschatology. Instead of just letting the events happen as John sees them unfold.

The Bible gives us the worst case scenario. That cannot rule out a revival or any best case scenarios. Nineveh was told that they would be destroyed, final, end of story. But they repented and humbled themselves, and were not destroyed. Was Jonah a liar?

Most who have heard the Gospel in this day and age, seem to get the point the Second Coming will destroy humanity. But some here seem to think that when things get worse, people will still have time to repent because the Second Coming is post all the trouble. I don't see that as the case.

In Revelation 11, at the sounding of the 7th Trumpet, John never implies Jesus has just come to earth. The 7th Trumpet is declaring the final harvest over, and all have been removed from the earth that needed to be removed. All nations were now acceptable and fit for Jesus as King.

"The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth."

Even all the tares and goats are gone and removed. All the things that offend have been removed by the the time the 7th Trumpet sounds.

"And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever."

John watched 6 Trumpets sound, and heard 7 Thunders while Jesus and the angels were cleaning up this earthly kingdom.

The only people prepared were those removed at the 5th Seal, the church who experienced the second birth prior to the 5th Seal being opened.

No one has a choice in the next few days, weeks, or months of the final harvest, after the Second Coming. We only see a choice after the 7th Trumpet sounds, and that choice of redemption is the removal of one's head from their body of Adam's dead corruptible flesh. There is no ability to change one's mind after the head is severed, that choice is final. Nor is there a choice after God places the mark, and removes one's name from the Lamb's book of life. Yet many think that some people sneak past God and the final harvest waiting to be raptured, after the 7 vials have been poured out on Satan's mystery Babylon.

 

[tailgator]

Daniel 11 is a step-by-step chronological description of ancient historical events from the Persian kings on through Alexander the Great, his four generals dividing the Greek empire, the prevailing Seleucid and Ptolemaic branches of the Greek empire with Antiochus E. IV descending from the Seleucid kings, the vicious Hasmonean king Alexander Jannaeus, then the rise of the Roman Pompey the Great's actions. As a matter of fact, every bit of Daniel's entire book is ancient history by now.

That is what you have been taught .
I believe the Hellenistic Jew Jason of Cyrene was the first to teach that.I recon that makes you his disciple.

 

[TribulationSigns]

The ten horns are ten kings.
The size is the size of their countries.Also note the little horn is different that the rest and appears to be stouter than his fellows.
These are all descriptions which you ignore.Thats why you can't understand very simple things.You ignore the word of God.

No, obviously, you are not a bible student. You rarely quote Scripture to support your private interpretations. You basically make up speculations here and there. You just claim that the horns are ten literal kings. Little horn is a literal little country, thinking these are "simple things" to understand - clearly to me that you lack of spiritual discernment due to lack of comparing Scripture with Scrpture and allow it to be its own interpreation.

No more discussion with you. I wish you the best and pray for the wisdom of Christ.

Good bye!

 

[tailgator]

Daniel 11 is a step-by-step chronological description of ancient historical events from the Persian kings on through Alexander the Great, his four generals dividing the Greek empire, the prevailing Seleucid and Ptolemaic branches of the Greek empire with Antiochus E. IV descending from the Seleucid kings, the vicious Hasmonean king Alexander Jannaeus, then the rise of the Roman Pompey the Great's actions. As a matter of fact, every bit of Daniel's entire book is ancient history by now.

PS
Jason and his followers teach the abomination of desolation was set up in 167 bc.

Jesus taught the abomination of desolation prophecied by Daniel would be a sign of his coming.

You cant follow both teachers because one of them is wrong.

 

[tailgator]

No, obviously, you are not a bible student. You rarely quote Scripture to support your private interpretations. You basically make up speculations here and there. You just claim that the horns are ten literal kings. Little horn is a literal little country, thinking these are "simple things" to understand - clearly to me that you lack of spiritual discernment due to lack of comparing Scripture with Scrpture and allow it to be its own interpreation.

No more discussion with you. I wish you the best and pray for the wisdom of Christ.

Good bye!

Oh,I thought you was familiar with the prophecy of the beast.I recon not.
And no,these are not speculations .

The little horn appears stouter than his fellows
The little horn is diverse from the first

These are all descriptions written in the prophecy.You must not be a student of prophecy or you would have had them memorized and would not have needed me to show you where they are written.

 

[honeycomb]

You need to define tribulation. Why do you think you are going to escape being beheaded? Are you waiting to become a Christian by having your head chopped off?

I’m not waiting to become a Christian. I am a Christian.

…but I would die for Jesus if I have to.

Would you?
…or are you afraid to.

 

[honeycomb]

@Timtofly

This is Jacob’s Trouble (The Great Tribulation):
Alas! For that day is great, So that none is like it; And it is the time of Jacob's trouble, But he shall be saved out of it. 'For it shall come to pass in that day,' Says the LORD of hosts, 'That I will break his yoke from your neck, And will burst your bonds; Foreigners shall no more enslave them.

- Jeremiah 30:7-8 (NKJV)
This is the Lord’s Day (And if you don’t know what this Day is, I would suggest you make a study on this very important Day—hint: This Day is not referring to a Sunday or Saturday when you go to church).

God is referring to the Lord's Day, the Day that brings the end of Jacob's Trouble. Keep in mind that the time of Jacob's Trouble has been shortened for the Elect‘s sake, and at the end of it, God will save them out of it. Jacob is the father of all twelve tribes, which comprise both houses of Israel and Judah. When the 7th trump sounds, there will be a joining of both houses back together.

The Lord's Day is the Second Coming of Jesus Christ. It is the time of the sounding of the 7th and last trump when all men will be changed into their spiritual bodies and when the 1,000-year millennial kingdom of God is set up on earth. Satan and his fallen angels and and false teachers will be gone.

This is the time of the end when Jesus returns and: in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

- 1 Corinthians 15:52 (NKJV)

In the millennium, all “flesh“ will be gone and Satan has been placed in the pit for 1,000 years. This time is still in the future, but it won’t be long now.

 

[tailgator]

@Timtofly

This is Jacob’s Trouble (The Great Tribulation):
Alas! For that day is great, So that none is like it; And it is the time of Jacob's trouble, But he shall be saved out of it. 'For it shall come to pass in that day,' Says the LORD of hosts, 'That I will break his yoke from your neck, And will burst your bonds; Foreigners shall no more enslave them.

- Jeremiah 30:7-8 (NKJV)
This is the Lord’s Day (And if you don’t know what this Day is, I would suggest you make a study on this very important Day—hint: This Day is not referring to a Sunday or Saturday when you go to church).

God is referring to the Lord's Day, the Day that brings the end of Jacob's Trouble. Keep in mind that the time of Jacob's Trouble has been shortened for the Elect‘s sake, and at the end of it, God will save them out of it. Jacob is the father of all twelve tribes, which comprise both houses of Israel and Judah. When the 7th trump sounds, there will be a joining of both houses back together.

The Lord's Day is the Second Coming of Jesus Christ. It is the time of the sounding of the 7th and last trump when all men will be changed into their spiritual bodies and when the 1,000-year millennial kingdom of God is set up on earth. Satan and his fallen angels and and false teachers will be gone.

This is the time of the end when Jesus returns and: in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

- 1 Corinthians 15:52 (NKJV)

In the millennium, all “flesh“ will be gone and Satan has been placed in the pit. This time is still in the future, but it won’t be long now.

You were doing pretty good till the end.All flesh is not gone during the millinium.There is plenty of flesh both in the kingdom.and outside of it.

Even them who are raised out of their graves have flesh.

Ezekiel 37

7 So I prophesied as I was commanded. And as I was prophesying, there was a noise, a rattling sound, and the bones came together, bone to bone. 8 I looked, and tendons and flesh appeared on them and skin covered them, but there was no breath in them.

9 Then he said to me, “Prophesy to the breath; prophesy, son of man, and say to it, ‘This is what the Sovereign Lord says: Come, breath, from the four winds and breathe into these slain, that they may live.’” 10 So I prophesied as he commanded me, and breath entered them; they came to life and stood up on their feet—a vast army.

11 Then he said to me: “Son of man, these bones are the people of Israel. They say, ‘Our bones are dried up and our hope is gone; we are cut off.’ 12 Therefore prophesy and say to them: ‘This is what the Sovereign Lord says: My people, I am going to open your graves and bring you up from them; I will bring you back to the land of Israel.
13 Then you, my people, will know that I am the Lord, when I open your graves and bring you up from them. 14 I will put my Spirit in you and you will live, and I will settle you in your own land. Then you will know that I the Lord have spoken, and I have done it, declares the Lord.’”









The nations outside the kingdom.also have flesh during the millinium.They will be bird food after the millinium.After Gog and the nations with him come against the resurected saints.

Ezekiel 39
17 “Son of man, this is what the Sovereign Lord says: Call out to every kind of bird and all the wild animals: ‘Assemble and come together from all around to the sacrifice I am preparing for you, the great sacrifice on the mountains of Israel. There you will eat flesh and drink blood. 18 You will eat the flesh of mighty men and drink the blood of the princes of the earth as if they were rams and lambs, goats and bulls—all of them fattened animals from Bashan. 19 At the sacrifice I am preparing for you, you will eat fat till you are glutted and drink blood till you are drunk. 20 At my table you will eat your fill of horses and riders, mighty men and soldiers of every kind,’ declares the Sovereign Lord.

 

[honeycomb]

You were doing pretty good till the end.All flesh is not gone during the millinium.There is plenty of flesh both in the kingdom.and outside of it.

Even them who are raised out of their graves have flesh.

Ezekiel 37

7 So I prophesied as I was commanded. And as I was prophesying, there was a noise, a rattling sound, and the bones came together, bone to bone. 8 I looked, and tendons and flesh appeared on them and skin covered them, but there was no breath in them.

9 Then he said to me, “Prophesy to the breath; prophesy, son of man, and say to it, ‘This is what the Sovereign Lord says: Come, breath, from the four winds and breathe into these slain, that they may live.’” 10 So I prophesied as he commanded me, and breath entered them; they came to life and stood up on their feet—a vast army.

11 Then he said to me: “Son of man, these bones are the people of Israel. They say, ‘Our bones are dried up and our hope is gone; we are cut off.’ 12 Therefore prophesy and say to them: ‘This is what the Sovereign Lord says: My people, I am going to open your graves and bring you up from them; I will bring you back to the land of Israel.
13 Then you, my people, will know that I am the Lord, when I open your graves and bring you up from them. 14 I will put my Spirit in you and you will live, and I will settle you in your own land. Then you will know that I the Lord have spoken, and I have done it, declares the Lord.’”









The nations outside the kingdom.also have flesh during the millinium.They will be bird food after the millinium.After Gog and the nations with him come against the resurected saints.

Ezekiel 39
17 “Son of man, this is what the Sovereign Lord says: Call out to every kind of bird and all the wild animals: ‘Assemble and come together from all around to the sacrifice I am preparing for you, the great sacrifice on the mountains of Israel. There you will eat flesh and drink blood. 18 You will eat the flesh of mighty men and drink the blood of the princes of the earth as if they were rams and lambs, goats and bulls—all of them fattened animals from Bashan. 19 At the sacrifice I am preparing for you, you will eat fat till you are glutted and drink blood till you are drunk. 20 At my table you will eat your fill of horses and riders, mighty men and soldiers of every kind,’ declares the Sovereign Lord.

I’d like to start with Ezekiel 37:6.

Ezekiel 37:6 "And I will lay sinews upon you, and will bring up flesh upon you, and cover you with skin, and put breath in you, and ye shall live; and ye shall know that I am the Lord."​

This is a symbolic lesson, methinks. God wants us to understand what He will do for the house of Israel …and for us. This is prophecy.

​

 

[Truth7t7]

Which last day?

The last day at the resurrection (Then Cometh The End)

The second coming of Jesus Christ and the resurrection of all is (The Last Day)

1 Corinthisns 15:20-24KJV
20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

John 6:39-40KJV
39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 5:28-29KJV
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

 

[Timtofly]

Dispensationalists generally see everything as a prophesy pertaining to the nation of Israel, when it is in fact pertaining to a spiritual nation, a spiritual compassion, a spiritual people in captivity who have been set free. Spiritually brought home to be reconciled with God. Moreover, the qualifier is that the prophesy is that when they return, they would obey God's voice according to all that He commanded them and their children, with all their heart and soul." To think that this occurred with God in 1948 is to dabble in absurdity. Clearly, a necessary condition for the re-gathering of Israel (according to the prophesy) was their returning to the Lord. That has not occurred in the nation.

No one can know the full extent of this prophecy until it is fulfilled. To say otherwise is speculation. 1948 was not the return of the King. 1948 was a different prophecy about the blooming of the fig tree that was withered.

While you theorize or envision a spiritual calling out of all the nations, that would have started at the Cross, but was not the promise from Deuteronomy. Israel was not brought back in the first century from being scattered in 720BC. In fact by 70AD, they were completely and finally scattered and no longer a nation 40 years post the Cross. They had not even been scattered until after the spiritual gathering started.

The church is not distinct between Israel and Gentile. But as a nation and God's promises Israel is still a distinct nation. That distinction was a reality again in 1948. But God was not gathering back in 1948 for spiritual purposes, nor was Deuteronomy fulfilled in 1948.

The spiritual kingdom of heaven has to be completed prior to God restoring the distinct nation of Jacob, God calls Israel.

The kingdom of heaven is without distinction.

The kingdom of Christ on earth is Israel as distinct, ruling over all distinct nations.

God allows for distinction while physical nations are on the earth. That does not seem to be done away with at any point in time, in this reality or the next.

A physical nation is always distinct.

A spiritual nation is not a distinct nation on earth, and there is only one, the Kingdom of Heaven.

 

[Timtofly]

Nope.
They are firstfruit ethnic Jews

Who are?

 

[Timtofly]

I see the scripture putting the Rev. 20 millennium "smack dab in the middle of Adam's punishment". It's as Habakkuk predicted in Hab. 3:2, "O Lord, revive thy work in the midst of the years, in the midst of the years make known; in wrath remember mercy." That "revival" under Zerubbabel and the prophets took place in the very center of all 7,000 years of fallen mankind's history in this world.

The prophet Ezra acknowledged that this "reviving" had taken place in the mercy shown to the exiled Israelites. This "mercy" of God was displayed by His causing the Persian kings to decree the Israelites' return to their homeland to rebuild their temple and the city. "...our God hath not forsaken us in our bondage, but hath extended mercy unto us in the sight of the kings of Persia, to give us a reviving, to set up the house of our God, and to repair the desolations thereof, and to give us a wall in Judah and in Jerusalem."

By God causing the revival of the nation, the city, and the Israelite people in the post-exilic return, that kept the Rev. 20 millennium restriction on Satan's deception of the nations continuing during that literal thousand-year millennial period that lasted from 968 / 967 BC until AD 33.

The Day of the Lord is not a revival. It is a Sabbath day free from Adam's punishment. There is no returning to sin after the Day of the Lord. There is no sin anywhere on earth during the Day of the Lord.

 

[Timtofly]

Ummm, yes, the body being "changed" is the way scripture describes it, in both the OT and the NT (Job 14:14-15, 1 Cor. 15:51-54). The dead material remains of our physical body are resurrected and "changed" into an immortal, incorruptible condition that can never die again. That "change" is described as the old corruptible, dead physical body "putting on" immortality and incorruptibility, which alters its condition into a physical body that is animated by the Holy Spirit - hence, a "spiritual body".

The resurrected individual is not composed of a spirit alone; they are changed into a "spiritual BODY". Just as a gasoline ENGINE runs on gasoline, but is not composed entirely of gasoline.

That is not what Paul wrote. And your explanation contradicts what Jesus said about returning to dust. The old body is left in the dust. Those is Christ have had their permanent incorruptible physical body in Paradise since 30AD. Their flesh from Adam still in the dust.

The OT were already resurrected, and walked out of their graves in God's permanent incorruptible physical body. That body ascended into Paradise on Sunday morning. It was not Adam's flesh reconstituted.

No one who experienced the second birth prior to physical death, since then, is waiting for a physical resurrection. They all already have a permanent incorruptible physical body in Paradise.

If you claim the Day of the Lord was in the past, you left out the part where they never return to sin, but have a full restoration as sons of God.

Job was talking about human understanding and death in general. Job never met Jesus like Abraham did. The dead will not rise as the dead until the end of Creation. But those made alive at the Cross, are no longer the dead. So what Job said does not apply to those already made alive as the firstfruits of that heavenly kingdom.

 

[Timtofly]

I’m not waiting to become a Christian. I am a Christian.

…but I would die for Jesus if I have to.

Would you?
…or are you afraid to.

I have always been willing to be a martyr from a very early age.

 

[Timtofly]

@Timtofly

This is Jacob’s Trouble (The Great Tribulation):
Alas! For that day is great, So that none is like it; And it is the time of Jacob's trouble, But he shall be saved out of it. 'For it shall come to pass in that day,' Says the LORD of hosts, 'That I will break his yoke from your neck, And will burst your bonds; Foreigners shall no more enslave them.

- Jeremiah 30:7-8 (NKJV)
This is the Lord’s Day (And if you don’t know what this Day is, I would suggest you make a study on this very important Day—hint: This Day is not referring to a Sunday or Saturday when you go to church).

God is referring to the Lord's Day, the Day that brings the end of Jacob's Trouble. Keep in mind that the time of Jacob's Trouble has been shortened for the Elect‘s sake, and at the end of it, God will save them out of it. Jacob is the father of all twelve tribes, which comprise both houses of Israel and Judah. When the 7th trump sounds, there will be a joining of both houses back together.

The Lord's Day is the Second Coming of Jesus Christ. It is the time of the sounding of the 7th and last trump when all men will be changed into their spiritual bodies and when the 1,000-year millennial kingdom of God is set up on earth. Satan and his fallen angels and and false teachers will be gone.

This is the time of the end when Jesus returns and: in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

- 1 Corinthians 15:52 (NKJV)

In the millennium, all “flesh“ will be gone and Satan has been placed in the pit for 1,000 years. This time is still in the future, but it won’t be long now.

Yet Jacob's trouble was split between killing their Messiah, and being tossed into the LOF by that same Messiah, now as their King.

Jacob will not be in trouble until they stand before their Lord and creator sitting on a throne in Jerusalem.

The remnant redeemed will very much enjoy the Day of the Lord where Israel will flourish per Isaiah 65.

 

[tailgator]

I’d like to start with Ezekiel 37:6.

Ezekiel 37:6 "And I will lay sinews upon you, and will bring up flesh upon you, and cover you with skin, and put breath in you, and ye shall live; and ye shall know that I am the Lord."​

This is a symbolic lesson, methinks. God wants us to understand what He will do for the house of Israel …and for us. This is prophecy.

​

Yes it's a prophecy.God is saying what he will do during the resurection.He will cause flesh and skin to form on old bones and then bring them up out of their graves and give them life.

It will probably be like the flesh Jesus was sporting around after he was resurected.Holes in his hands and side and all.

Luke 24:39
Look at my hands and my feet. It is I myself! Touch me and see; a ghost does not have flesh and bones, as you see I have.”

 

[The Light]

Besides the fact you are changing up Revelation to fit your own ideal eschatology. You are not seeing it unfold like John did.

You are stuck in the same "it has to be finished" rut as Amil, and all those who declare the 70 weeks over in the first century. The 70 weeks are not over until the 7th Trumpet stops sounding. Not at the split second it starts sounding. The 7th Trumpet is a week long event. The third such event in the history of Israel.

I am changing nothing revelation. I just understand that the wrath of God is over at the 7th trumpet and the kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord.

 

[3 Resurrections]

That is what you have been taught .
I believe the Hellenistic Jew Jason of Cyrene was the first to teach that.I recon that makes you his disciple.

Never heard of him. I read the scriptures mainly, and dip into the history of the old pagan empires from ordinary online sources, as well as Ussher's Annals of the World, Josephus, and just a bit of the early church fathers. The scriptures are quite plain as to the chronological progression of the Persian, Greek, Hasmonean, and Roman kingdoms of Daniel 11. Daniel gave so precise a prediction of ancient historical events that some claim Daniel wrote it after the fact and not before.

 

[3 Resurrections]

The Day of the Lord is not a revival. It is a Sabbath day free from Adam's punishment. There is no returning to sin after the Day of the Lord. There is no sin anywhere on earth during the Day of the Lord.

I didn't even bring up the title of the "Day of the Lord". What does that have to do with what I wrote? It is difficult for me to follow your train of thought many times, Timtofly. Lots of bouncing around from one subject to another with some unrelated stuff thrown in.