What was Paul's thorn in the flesh?

[Phil .]

And what is the entire point

You is the thorn; the thorn doesn’t exist.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

You is the thorn; the thorn doesn’t exist.

And your proof that it is only a metaphorical and not a real infirmity is?

 

[Phil .]

And your proof that it is only a metaphorical and not a real infirmity is?

I’m not speaking metaphorically.

The self implied, the one which needs proof or for whom there could be proof - does not exist (already).

This is the Good news.

 

[Bob Carabbio]

What was Paul's thorn in the flesh

PERSONAL OPINION:
Paul in his earlier days was a religious TERRORIST, destroying families and individuals "for the glory of God", and the Jewish religious system as a Pharisee. Biblically, the "Thorn" was a satanic messenger that buffeted him.

What do you suppose happened when Paul ran into the relatives, friends, or families of the people he'd DESTROYED?? For SURE satan would remind him regularly of his atrocities that he'd committed in the past as a religious fool, and rub his nose in it.

 

[MatthewG]

No one knows. He never explicitly let us know. Many assume it was his eye sight, but it could have been some type of temptation from the darkness- the Advesary which apparently kept him from ever exalting himself over anyone else.

 

[BlessedPeace]

An enslaved scribe wrote Paul's letters to the Romans?

 

[Bruce-Leiter]

What was Paul's thorn in the flesh as he claimed he was plagued with in 2 Cor 12:8 and "besought the Lord thrice" (3 times) to rid him of it?

Some say (erroneously), it was an affliction of some kind. However, when you look carefully at the text, it's clear to see it was not a bodily disorder or disease, nor would such warrant the Lord's grace as stated in 2 Cor 12:9.

The answer as to what it was lies in Paul's letter to the church at Rome, Rom 7:8: The fleshly lust of 'concupiscence'.

What is 'concupiscence'?

Strong sexual desire; lust. The desire and enjoyment of carnal pleasure.

"Strong desire, especially sexual desire" (Webster)

(see both pertinent texts below, KJV)

2 Cor 12:7-10

"7And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure. 8For this thing I besought the Lord thrice, that it might depart from me. 9And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me. 10Therefore I take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in necessities, in persecutions, in distresses for Christ's sake: for when I am weak, then am I strong."

Romans 7:7-11

"7What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet. 8But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead. 9For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died. 10And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death. 11For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me."
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The difficulty I have with your conclusion is that Paul leaves the word "thorn" vague and imprecise and that the Romans 7 reference to lust may not be the same as his mention of a "thorn" in 2 Corinthians 12.

Let's face it. No one knows what exact kind of "thorn" Paul had. There are a lot of guesses but no real proof. I would rather focus on what God is doing with my "thorn" instead of speculating on what Paul's was.

The key for God's work in my life with my "thorn" is found in the next chapter's verse four, which stuck out at me when I read it this morning for my devotions: "For he was crucified in weakness, but lives by the power of God. For we also are weak in him, but in dealing with you we will live with him by the power of God" (ESV). The victory of Jesus' death and resurrection is what we need to experience to overcome the attacks that result in our weakness ("thorn") and live in the strength of his power released when he rose from the dead. (See the book What God Has Done: My True, Dramatic God-Biography for many examples (Amazon).

 

[Bruce-Leiter]

Just a comment on the many replies that insist scripture “proves” the Apostle had to have had a physical ailment. Common sense should inform us that Paul would not have appealed to God to remove a physical thorn: that is not in keeping with Jewish theology or practice.

In contrast, help with spiritual thorns is precisely what Christianity is intended to manage. Whatever form it took with the Apostle, it must have been tortuous, and although he successfully resisted it time and time again, he would have preferred God would banish completely.

(I’ll leave it to you and others to debate the source of the thorn.)

Peace and blessings.

However, such requests are modeled by Job, David, Jeremiah, Habakkuk, and other Old Testament passages. Seventy-three of the Psalms are at least in part laments about the Psalmists' struggles.

 

[Bruce-Leiter]

Where's all the responses? Erased? Oh well. But I thought I'd supplement my OP with the following to help people in their understanding of this topic, due to the obvious confusion from what I recall from the responses posted.

Many responses to this seemed to suggest Paul's thorn in the flesh was some kind of physical ailment or medical in nature. But in that regard, one must only look at the Lord's response to Paul who besought the Lord thrice (times) to remove it from him or rid him of it.

So what was the Lord's response to Paul?

"My grace is sufficient for thee" (2 Cor 12:9).

So ask yourself if the Lord's response would make sense if Paul asked him to remove an eye ailment as some suggested he may have had, or any of the other type of medical issue people or "scholars" have suggested.

Hypothetically, if Paul said "please Lord remove this eye ailment from me, and make my eyes better", or maybe "please Lord, please take this stomach pain from me", etc. Would the Lord's response make any sense at all?

"My grace is sufficient for thee".

I don't think so.

Of course, it would make perfect sense, because we need God's strength and grace to endure any kind of physical or mental weakness.

 

[Dan Clarkston]

What was Paul's thorn in the flesh?​

Who cares?

We are called to follow Jesus and be like Him... not Paul.

2 Timothy 3:10,11
But thou hast fully known my doctrine, manner of life, purpose, faith, longsuffering, charity, patience,
Persecutions, afflictions, which came unto me at Antioch, at Iconium, at Lystra; what persecutions I endured: but out of them ALL the Lord delivered me.

Those that preach the "gospel" of we should be like Paul and live in defeat.... never want to talk about 2 Timothy 3:10,11 nor do they want to discuss Psalm 34:19

Psalm 34:19
Many are the afflictions of the righteous: but the LORD delivereth him out of them all.

Jesus is our Lord and Savior, He is the One was are called to be like and to follow... not Paul, so why not look at Jesus and be like Him???

Besides, Paul grow in the Lord in his later years to where nobody was slapping him around anymore... the last record we have of Paul in scripture is in the end of the Book of Acts:

Acts 28:30
And Paul dwelt two whole years in his own hired house, and received all that came in unto him,
Preaching the kingdom of God, and teaching those things which concern the Lord Jesus Christ, with all confidence, no man forbidding him.

It says Paul lived in his own rented house for 2 years preaching with NO man forbidding him!

 

[Dan Clarkston]

However, such requests are modeled by Job, David, Jeremiah, Habakkuk, and other Old Testament passages. Seventy-three of the Psalms are at least in part laments about the Psalmists' struggles.

And then... the Lord said this:

Psalm 34:19
Many are the afflictions of the righteous: but the LORD delivereth him out of them all.

Shall we accept and embrace darkness coming against us and lay down accepting that, or will we accept God's Word and stand on His promises of deliverance???

God is not mocked, we reap what we sown (Gal 6:7,8) so the Lord allows people to get what they believe

Proverbs 23:7
For as he thinketh in his heart, so is he

Matthew 9:29
According to your faith be it unto you.

 

[ChristinaL]

What was Paul's thorn in the flesh as he claimed he was plagued with in 2 Cor 12:8 and "besought the Lord thrice" (3 times) to rid him of it?

Some say (erroneously), it was an affliction of some kind. However, when you look carefully at the text, it's clear to see it was not a bodily disorder or disease, nor would such warrant the Lord's grace as stated in 2 Cor 12:9.

The answer as to what it was lies in Paul's letter to the church at Rome, Rom 7:8: The fleshly lust of 'concupiscence'.

What is 'concupiscence'?

Strong sexual desire; lust. The desire and enjoyment of carnal pleasure.

"Strong desire, especially sexual desire" (Webster)

(see both pertinent texts below, KJV)

2 Cor 12:7-10

"7And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure. 8For this thing I besought the Lord thrice, that it might depart from me. 9And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me. 10Therefore I take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in necessities, in persecutions, in distresses for Christ's sake: for when I am weak, then am I strong."

Romans 7:7-11

"7What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet. 8But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead. 9For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died. 10And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death. 11For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me."
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The scripture does not in any way indicate that it wasnt a physical disability of some kind. Romans 7 also doesnt connect with 2 Co 12. In Romans 7 Paul here is speaking in general terms and not of anything specific. In 2 Cor 12 he was speaking of physical infirmities.

 

[Bruce-Leiter]

Who cares?

We are called to follow Jesus and be like Him... not Paul.

2 Timothy 3:10,11
But thou hast fully known my doctrine, manner of life, purpose, faith, longsuffering, charity, patience,
Persecutions, afflictions, which came unto me at Antioch, at Iconium, at Lystra; what persecutions I endured: but out of them ALL the Lord delivered me.

Those that preach the "gospel" of we should be like Paul and live in defeat.... never want to talk about 2 Timothy 3:10,11 nor do they want to discuss Psalm 34:19

Psalm 34:19
Many are the afflictions of the righteous: but the LORD delivereth him out of them all.

Jesus is our Lord and Savior, He is the One was are called to be like and to follow... not Paul, so why not look at Jesus and be like Him???

Besides, Paul grow in the Lord in his later years to where nobody was slapping him around anymore... the last record we have of Paul in scripture is in the end of the Book of Acts:

Acts 28:30
And Paul dwelt two whole years in his own hired house, and received all that came in unto him,
Preaching the kingdom of God, and teaching those things which concern the Lord Jesus Christ, with all confidence, no man forbidding him.

It says Paul lived in his own rented house for 2 years preaching with NO man forbidding him!

Who says that we are following Paul, not Jesus? I'm not.

 

[Bruce-Leiter]

The scripture does not in any way indicate that it wasnt a physical disability of some kind. Romans 7 also doesnt connect with 2 Co 12. In Romans 7 Paul here is speaking in general terms and not of anything specific. In 2 Cor 12 he was speaking of physical infirmities.

Paul doesn't define or describe the "thorn" at all; you misread the passage. He struggled against sin in Romans 7, the way all Christians need to do.

 

[Bruce-Leiter]

You is the thorn; the thorn doesn’t exist.

Please explain yourself; I don't understand you.

 

[GracePeace]

Where's all the responses? Erased? Oh well. But I thought I'd supplement my OP with the following to help people in their understanding of this topic, due to the obvious confusion from what I recall from the responses posted.

Many responses to this seemed to suggest Paul's thorn in the flesh was some kind of physical ailment or medical in nature. But in that regard, one must only look at the Lord's response to Paul who besought the Lord thrice (times) to remove it from him or rid him of it.

So what was the Lord's response to Paul?

"My grace is sufficient for thee" (2 Cor 12:9).

So ask yourself if the Lord's response would make sense if Paul asked him to remove an eye ailment as some suggested he may have had, or any of the other type of medical issue people or "scholars" have suggested.

Hypothetically, if Paul said "please Lord remove this eye ailment from me, and make my eyes better", or maybe "please Lord, please take this stomach pain from me", etc. Would the Lord's response make any sense at all?

"My grace is sufficient for thee".

I don't think so.

1a. Since the Lord's purpose in sending a messenger of satan to attack his body was to prevent Paul from boasting, and boasting is a sin, and God's will for us is our sanctification, it would make no sense for the same Lord to have sent a messenger of satan to cause Paul to sin by being filled with sexual desire.

1b. Romans 7 describes the life of a Jew (Ro 7:1) in the flesh (Ro 7:5), and being "mastered" (made a slave) by sin because he is "under the Law" (Ro 6:14), but Christians are "not in the flesh but in the spirit" (Ro 8:9) : Romans 7 does not describe Paul's life as a Christian.

2a. The "messenger of satan" attacked Paul's body--this may refer to his having had poor vision :
i. Gal 4:15For I testify to you that, if possible, you would have gouged out your eyes and given them to me.
ii. Gal 6:11See with what large letters I am writing to you with my own hand.

2b. Since it doesn't make sense that poor vision would've kept Paul from boasting, "thorn in my side" may refer to the constant resistance to his teachings (the revelations he would've boasted about) : "thorn in your side" is a phrase from Torah referring to idolaters in the Promised Land (left alive--they were to wipe them out so that they would not become thorns in their sides), so it may refer to the "idolatry" of the churches sowed in them by the "idolaters" (eg, Judaizers : "this persuasion does not come from Him Who calls you" (Gal 5:8) means the Galatians, for instance, were committing idolatry (1 Jn 3:23 says God's command is to believe in the Name of God's Son and love others : there is no command against idolatry, but loving others is the second greatest commandment, thus believing in the Name of God's Son takes the place/fulfills the greatest command to love God and have no others gods before Him, thus veering from the faith would be "idolatry"), because they were "giving heed to doctrines of demons" (1 Ti 4:1) (and idols "are demons" (1 Co 10:20) : submitting to the false doctrine/false Gospel of a demon is idolatry), whereby they "wickedly depart from... God" (Ps 18:21), as Paul says, "I am astonished you are so quickly deserting Him Who calls you in the grace of Christ and are going after another Gospel" (Gal 1:6)), but Paul so closely identifies with the members of the churches that he considers this "attack" on the church as an attack on his own self (just as Christ asked Paul, "Why do you persecute Me?" when Paul persecuted His Church).
That said, I'm not entirely satisfied with these answers (2a and 2b); if anyone has a better answer, please share it.

@ChristinaL @Bruce-Leiter

 

[ShineTheLight]

That said, I'm not entirely satisfied with these answers (2a and 2b); if anyone has a better answer, please share it.

@ChristinaL @Bruce-Leiter

I'll go with 1a. God can send evil spirits or Satan/the Devil at people. This is demonstrated when God sends a lying spirit to/in people in the old testament, or when God sends evil spirits on King Saul. Another is in 1 Timothy 1:20 when God teaches a couple of people to not be blasphemous.

Satan/the devil is the enemy, yes. But that's only if you walk and abide in God's statutes. The bible says in Exodus 23:22 that if you obey the things that he says, and do the things that he speaks, then he will be an enemy to your enemies, and an adversary to your adversaries. The bible talks about in various instances of obeying/obedience, and being a doer of his word. We can still be an enemy to God even though we are his children, and if when you're not in right-standing with him.

It is written that God has respect on the lowly, and the proud he knows afar off in Psalm 138:6. Then there's many other instances that talks about how being proud is not good. The bible says in Matthew 23:12 and Luke 14:11 that those who exalt themselves will be abased, and those who humbles themselves will be exalted.

Notice in 2 Corinthians 12:7 when Paul says "lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations". God is giving him the thorn in the flesh to keep him from being conceited. God disciplines his people. The bible says in Hebrews 12:8 that if a follower of God be without chastisement, then they are bastards and not sons. God loves those who he corrects (Proverbs 3:12).

As for what the thorn in the flesh is concerned. It is something you should take literally. It is literal.

 

[GracePeace]

I'll go with 1a. God can send evil spirits or Satan/the Devil at people. This is demonstrated when God sends a lying spirit to/in people in the old testament, or when God sends evil spirits on King Saul. Another is in 1 Timothy 1:20 when God teaches a couple of people to not be blasphemous.

Satan/the devil is the enemy, yes. But that's only if you walk and abide in God's statutes. The bible says in Exodus 23:22 that if you obey the things that he says, and do the things that he speaks, then he will be an enemy to your enemies, and an adversary to your adversaries. The bible talks about in various instances of obeying/obedience, and being a doer of his word. We can still be an enemy to God even though we are his children, and if when you're not in right-standing with him.

It is written that God has respect on the lowly, and the proud he knows afar off in Psalm 138:6. Then there's many other instances that talks about how being proud is not good. The bible says in Matthew 23:12 and Luke 14:11 that those who exalt themselves will be abased, and those who humbles themselves will be exalted.

Notice in 2 Corinthians 12:7 when Paul says "lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations". God is giving him the thorn in the flesh to keep him from being conceited. God disciplines his people. The bible says in Hebrews 12:8 that if a follower of God be without chastisement, then they are bastards and not sons. God loves those who he corrects (Proverbs 3:12).

As for what the thorn in the flesh is concerned. It is something you should take literally. It is literal.

Thanks.

The Bible explains  why the Lord gave him a thorn in the flesh, but doesn’t explain exactly what it was; that is why the thread asks what it was.

 

[Rockerduck]

I too have a thorn in the flesh to humble my outgoing personality. I lost partial sight in one eye, but I kept preaching. I've lost most hearing in one ear, but I keep preaching. My preacher friend has health problem but still pastors a church at 80. He uses a walker, and a cane, but still keeps preaching. The more effective you are, God weakens you so that Christ in you becomes stronger. We can have a lot in common with Paul's thorn in the flesh.

 

[GracePeace]

Shall we accept and embrace darkness coming against us and lay down accepting that

If it's from the Lord, as it was with Paul, yes, we accept it.

or will we accept God's Word and stand on His promises of deliverance???

The two are not mutually exclusive : Paul PRAYED to Christ, and Christ said "No", so accepting the darkness sent by Christ is one and the same as accepting God's Word. Christ is more concerned with our spiritual deliverance from slavery to sin (eg, as with Paul, boasting) than He is with our physical deliverance from physical illnesses, and Christ will even use the devil when He decides that is what is called for.

The Bible is not a book of magic, where you learn a spell, and control everything by casting spells; the end result of the Bible is to be knowledge of Christ and God, and submission to Christ's and God's will. That is what this incident reveals.

That is what has happened to me in my life, as well : I had satanic visitations on almost a nightly basis, for seven years, until I would confess that Christ had already saved me (though I couldn't understand that from the Bible), and that I couldn't make myself right with God through my works.