I think the thing is that Christians who recant, will reach Heaven, escaping the fire, but will not have works to their name. At that point, it is a matter of zeal, which if they are lacking, will have them spewed out. Again, even spewed out, there is a possibility that their self-satisfaction will change, once they see what is in Heaven. This is the Love of God, He forbears. After that, that's it! It's like a precipice on a great cliff, you simply don't jump off (unless you have wings).
What Makes Ex-Christians Think They Once Were Christians?
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OSASers pervert Scripture and turn a blind eye to great soul winners who displayed the fruit of the Spirit, who later encountered intellectual problems with biblical inspiration and felt the need to renounce their faith as a matter of personal integrity. A tragic mistake that evidences the dangers of spiritual warfare!
All the epistles written by Paul are written to Christians.
This is also true of Peter's and John's epistles.
John speaking to his brothers and sisters in Christ through the Holy Spirit taught this,
1John 3:15,
- Whoever hates His brother(brother in Christ) is murderer and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him.
John never taught, perseverance of the saints, OSAS, Eternal security
Neither did Paul,
Galatians 5:4,
- You have become estranged from Christ, you who attempt to be justified by law, you have fallen from grace
You cannot fall from a building if you are not standing on it.
Likewise you cannot fall from grace if you were never covered by Gods grace.
Therefore you must be in Gods grace in order to fall out of Gods grace.
This is also true of Peter's and John's epistles.
John speaking to his brothers and sisters in Christ through the Holy Spirit taught this,
1John 3:15,
- Whoever hates His brother(brother in Christ) is murderer and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him.
John never taught, perseverance of the saints, OSAS, Eternal security
Neither did Paul,
Galatians 5:4,
- You have become estranged from Christ, you who attempt to be justified by law, you have fallen from grace
You cannot fall from a building if you are not standing on it.
Likewise you cannot fall from grace if you were never covered by Gods grace.
Therefore you must be in Gods grace in order to fall out of Gods grace.
Glad I could help! :)
Behold
Well-Known Member
Get away from parables and to directly to the Cross of Christ for Salvation.
Final answer.
Triumph1300
Well-Known Member
Some people don't understand the Cross without reading the parables.
Jesus did not speak in parables for nothing.
Behold
Well-Known Member
Do it like this..
When reading a verse in the BIBLE, that is related to a teaching or a doctrine..
Read the verse IN LIGHT of the Cross.
In other words...... understanding that the Cross of CHRIST is the NEW Covenant, that has taken us from law to GRACE , regarding
Eternal SALVATION>... we have to use the Cross and the Blood Atonement LITERALLY = as the LIGHT to now REALIZE and Discern any symbolic verse or any other verse, that is related to The New Testament "Body of Christ"
And, this is most important when dealing with what Jesus said, to the House of Israel BEFORE He died on the Cross.
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I think of works like evidence in a court proceeding. They prove a fact, that someone is of one spirit or another.
The Spirit drives our will which becomes action. This results in good works that flow from the throne of God.
What is God most concerned about? Our will being aligned with his or our actions fulfilling his purposes on earth? It is possible for someone to fake it so we see the outward signs expected. But they can't trick God regarding what is in their hearts. Ultimately they can't keep up the act forever.
Well said! I couldn't have said it better myself. lol
Behold
Well-Known Member
Very True.
And the proof you have fallen from Grace is if the believer now believes they can lose their salvation.
And im only describing a born again believer... not a water baptized religious faker.
See, only someone who has no real faith in Christ, ... BELIEVES that they can lose their Salvation.
Christians who have real faith in Christ BELIEVE that the same Jesus who saved them, keeps them saved.
So, what you ask this "fallen from Grace" person is...
1.) "If Jesus does not keep you saved, then who does"?
And if they are honest, and most are not, but if you find one who is honest, they will say...>"well, im keeping myself saved".
See that?
That's an honest answer....tho a foolish one..... and that answer proves that they have no faith in Christ, anymore.
And that is because some Heretic ruined their faith by showing them a couple of verses that they don't actually understand but they surely can TWIST to suit their self righteousness.
See, you can't have faith in Christ and not believe that Jesus keeps you saved.. as if He doesn't, then you can't, we can't, as we are not the Savior.
So, That is no faith in Christ. = "FALLEN from Grace".. is the BELIEF that you can lose your salvation.
Thats the PROOF.
Grace, is God's Salvation., and it excludes our self effort.
See the Cross of Christ for that update, reader, in case you were confused about that eternal reality.
Grace, is Philippians 1:6.... that tells us that God Himself is faithful to completed what He began in us.
= our Salvation.
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I think the thing is, once you backslide, what you want most is to function, the way God intended - like you say "Lord, just let me be" (much like the prodigal son).
So if you are just trying to be yourself, doubting yourself can only ever lead you back to God - since He made you, to function at your peak.
So if you are just trying to be yourself, doubting yourself can only ever lead you back to God - since He made you, to function at your peak.
Silly Paul, for thinking the Galatians had fallen from grace,
Gal 5:4 You have become estranged from Christ, you who attempt to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.
mailmandan
Well-Known Member
I've come across more than a few people over the years who "professed" (key word) to have once been a Christian but are no longer are. When I asked these people how they became Christians in the first place I never got a satisfactory answer. ALL false religions and cults that promote salvation by works strongly oppose OSAS which has always been a major red flag for me. Prior to my conversion several years ago while still attending the Roman Catholic church, I rejected OSAS, lived in fear and bondage to insecurity and was miserable!
In regard to Hebrews 6:4-6, see post #83 from the link below:
Can salvation be lost
Nice smokescreen, but I remember what God said. Written to Christians: Philippians 2:12 (NKJV) 12 Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling; Notice that Paul said to...
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mailmandan
Well-Known Member
If the word 'sanctified' in Hebrews 10:29 is used to describe saved people who lost their salvation, then we have a contradiction because the writer of Hebrews in verse 10 said "sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all" (Hebrews 10:10) and in verse 14, we read, "perfected for all time those who are sanctified." (Hebrews 10:14) So in Hebrews 10:10, we clearly read ..WE have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. In Hebrews 10:14, we read - For by one offering He has perfected for all time THOSE who are sanctified. To go from sanctified back to un-sanctified would be in contradiction here.
*NOWHERE in context does it specifically say the person who "trampled underfoot the Son of God and has regarded as unclean the blood of the covenant" was "saved" and/or "lost their salvation." The reference to "the blood of the covenant that sanctified him" in verse 29 "on the surface" appears to be referring to a Christian, but this overlooks the fact that the word translated "sanctified" (which is the verb form of the adjective "holy") which means "set apart," and doesn't necessarily refer to salvation here.
Strong's Concordance
hagiazó: to make holy, consecrate, sanctify
Original Word: ἁγιάζω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: hagiazó
Phonetic Spelling: (hag-ee-ad'-zo)
Definition: to make holy, consecrate, sanctify
Usage: I make holy, treat as holy, set apart as holy, sanctify, hallow, purify.
In 1 Corinthians 7:14, Paul uses it to specifically refer to non-Christians who are "sanctified" or "set apart" by their believing spouse (and by this Paul does not mean that they are saved). A non-Christian can be "set apart" from other non-Christians without experiencing salvation as Paul explained. So, the word "sanctified" means to be "set apart." If the word "sanctified" simply meant saved, then we would have to say that the seventh day was saved (Genesis 2:3), the tabernacle was saved (Exodus 29:43), Moses saved the people after coming down off the mountain (Exodus 19:14), the priests and the Levites saved themselves (1 Chronicles 15:14), the Father saved the Son (John 10:36), the Son saved Himself (John 17:19) and many other things that do not line up with scripture.
In verse 39, the writer of Hebrews sets up the CONTRAST that makes it clear to me that he was referring to make believers/nominal Christians and not genuinely saved people: But WE are not OF THOSE who draw back to perdition, but OF THOSE who believe to the saving of the soul. Those who draw back to perdition do not believe to the saving of the soul and those who believe to the saving of the soul do not draw back to perdition.
mailmandan
Well-Known Member
The present tense of the word "justified" implies that these Galatians were contemplating justification by the law. They were getting sidetracked by legalistic teachers. "You who are trying to be justified by the law have fallen away from grace," but had they fully come to that place yet? Galatians 3:3 reads: Are you so foolish? Having begun in the Spirit, are you now being made perfect by the flesh? The middle voice implies "making yourselves perfect" by means of self-effort. The present tense indicates that the action is in progress and that there is still time to correct the error.
If these Galatians lost their salvation and it was a done deal, then why didn't Paul simply say you "lost your salvation" and I'm done with you? Instead, in verse 10, he said - I have confidence in you, in the Lord, that you will have no other mind; but he who troubles you shall bear his judgment, whoever he is. Why would Paul have confidence in these Galatians if they lost their salvation and it's all over for them? In verse 12, Paul uses hyperbole, as for those agitators, I wish they would go the whole way and emasculate themselves!
Those who "permanently" fall away fit 1 John 2:19. Paul did not say these Galatians lost their salvation and it's all over for them. When Jesus was arrested, the 11 remaining disciples were said to "fall away" in Matthew 26:31-35. Did they lose their salvation?
mailmandan
Well-Known Member
Salvation is not probation.
Eternal life is not temporary life.
Jesus is the door. He is not a revolving door.
amigo de christo
Well-Known Member
I see a lot of these so called testimonies being given by what is known as deconstruction .I've come across more than a few people over the years who "professed" (key word) to have once been a Christian but are no longer are. When I asked these people how they became Christians in the first place I never got a satisfactory answer. ALL false religions and cults that promote salvation by works strongly oppose OSAS which has always been a major red flag for me. Prior to my conversion several years ago while still attending the Roman Catholic church, I rejected OSAS, lived in fear and bondage to insecurity and was miserable!
In regard to Hebrews 6:4-6, see post #83 from the link below:
Can salvation be lost
Nice smokescreen, but I remember what God said. Written to Christians: Philippians 2:12 (NKJV) 12 Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling; Notice that Paul said to...
They all came on with stories about how they once believed in and served Christ .
And yet , yet when i hear what turned them from Christ i see something .
THEY had the wrong mindset of the gospel and of Christ . Its like they truly never knew HIM at all .
They had some head knowledge but never seemed to really know HIM .
Beware of the deconstruction stuff . This too is a plan to try and convert folks into a mindset
that its not really needed to beleive on Christ . i smell anti christ all over it .
But i have also talked with others who had also thought they blasphemed the HOLY SPIRIT
I ask questions . And often when i ask them , TELL me when you were a christain
what leaders and preachers did you like to hear , A HEAR A LIST OF FALSE ONES .
Which proves something big to me . WHY WOULD a lamb have sat under and love to embrace
the most false preachers in the first place .
Its dire important , however , that we do warn just like the early church did .
And if they reminded THE CHURCH to continue in CHRIST , WE NEED to do the same .
See all those reminders in the bible . THEY WERE SPIRIT INSPIRED to help keep the lambs safe .
But this i do know , IF in the end anyone comes out and follows a false gospel , a lie
THEN THEY WERE NEVER TRULY OF US . Now john says that , SO I SAY THAT .
But they also gave a lot of reminders about keeping the faith UNTO THE END and what would occur
IF ONE DID NOT . cast out . WE cannot try and omit those warnings either .
THERE IS GOOD reason for everything that was written . IT IS FOR OUR LEARNING and we would be wise
to heed it and to teach it .
mailmandan
Well-Known Member
In regard to John 15:2, the branches that bear fruit and remain are genuine believers (like the remaining 11 disciples). The self-attached branches (cosmic connection) that bear no fruit and do not remain are not genuine believers (like Judas Iscariot). In John 15:2, Jesus mentions branches that bear no fruit and branches that bear fruit, but Jesus says nothing about branches that bear fruit but then later stop bearing fruit.
Greek scholar AT Robertson points out that there are two kinds of connections with Christ as the vine (the merely cosmic which bears no fruit, the spiritual and vital which bears fruit). Probably (Bernard) Jesus here refers to Judas.
John 15:2 Commentary - Robertson's Word Pictures of the New Testament
When Jesus spoke these words in John 15, how many people at that time, prior to Him being glorified, had received the Holy Spirit and were baptized by one Spirit into one body? - "the body of Christ?" (1 Corinthians 12:13) -- NONE.
John 7:38 - He who believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, out of his heart will flow rivers of living water. 39 But this He spoke concerning the Spirit, whom those believing in Him would receive; for the Holy Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.
So "in me" is part of the metaphor of the vine (in the vine) and not in the body of Christ under the new covenant which was not yet fully established. Without that vital union with Christ, there can be no spiritual life and no productivity. Those who profess to know Christ but whose relationship to Him is self-attached, Christ neither saved them, nor sustains them. Eventually, the dead self-attached fruitless branches are cut off.
In regard to Romans 11:19-22, the Jews were in the olive tree to begin with because they were the "natural branches" and not because they were all saved. Because of their unbelief and hard hearts God removed His gracious hand from them as a people overall and broke them off from His goodness (but only for a time after which they will be restored - Romans 11:24-26). We Gentiles have now been grafted into God's goodness and are the recipients of His blessings. Paul's warning is that we should not become arrogant because we might lose the goodness and blessings of God just like the Jews lost the goodness and blessings of God.
Professing Christians, who are Gentiles, are corporately in outward covenant with Christ so, it would appear that Romans 11 is speaking about the question of collective ecclesiology and not individual soteriology. I see the warning to this collective body, which is corporately joined to Christ and is in a covenant relationship, but how could this mean that every individual in it is in saving union with Christ? Hence the "cut off." Union with Christ applies to the elect, and only for the elect are, "the gifts and the call of God are irrevocable." (verse 29)
But since non-elect covenant members are mixed in, Christ clearly appears to have non-elect branches, like Judas Iscariot (John 15:1-8) and while they may be joined outwardly in covenant with Christ, since they have professed faith in Jesus, the faith of some of them is spurious because they were never truly saved to begin with, even though they were among genuine believers. (1 John 2:19)
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