What makes any given branch of Christianity an authority over my life?

[Barrd]

No denomination does it perfectly and they don't always truly represent all of God's will. I find this whole issue about Christmas is nothing more than a tool the enemy uses to divide the church. No body forces you to celebrate it nor do they force you not to, so why make it an issue?

Because, Stan, my church was one that used to put on a Christmas dinner for those who otherwise would not have one. How many poor and elderly went without because our pastor decided that he'd rather stay at home and drink egg nog and open presents? The issue was those people who depended on us for their Christmas...

 

[Barrd]

Would that include spending millions on buildings which you have no problem with?

Do you use a piano or any other musical instrument in your worship service?
The New Testament never once mentions instrumental music in the service, and there are churches that will not use them because of this.

It also doesn't mention electricity or indoor plumbing...but I don't think anyone has a problem with these.

Why you are so focused on a meeting place is totally beyond me.

However, just so that you know, "Love Inc." meets in our homes.

 

[Wormwood]

Thanks Tom and Barrd for your kind words. Tom, I just think that most of Scripture can be understood from a plain reading and the more difficult passages often take time, prayer, humility, teachers and diligence to try to understand them. I think this is why we see so many encouragements in the Bible to meditate on it, look at the lives and teaching of Godly teachers, and seek wisdom from the Lord. Also, it seems that Paul and others expected that not everyone would agree on everything. This is why we should discuss, search and accept one another in spite of differences on debatable issues.

I know that is not probably the answer any of us would want. Especially as Western Christians, we want clear lines and absolutes in everything. Unfortunately I don't think any of us will have that in every area of faith on this side of eternity. Yet, it does lend itself to pursuing the Lord and continually seeking to grow and understand. I can tell you from my experience, when you really want to understand something and commit yourself to study and prayer, the Lord blesses that. Usually, you find that there are lots of good thoughts on a subject and though you might have personal convictions, you also appreciate views that may differ from your own.

In sum, we are all on a search. The Lord is not far from each of us. I think rather than giving us an authoritarian to answer all our questions, God gives us a hunger, prayer, a clear Word, and teachers that can help us on our journey. (And perhaps even christianityboard.com and its members to stretch us :))

 

[StanJ]

One. I read the whole of the New Testament and checked specific words in Greek.
Two. I read over 40 books on the subject. The author was irrelevant. If the book has the word "Church" in it I read it. This gave me a very wide ranging understanding of what other people thought.
Three. I contacted several denominational leaders including international ones to pose a few questions to them.
Four I wrote all my findings up including what others said about the subject.

This is fairly innocuous and not justification for your POV. With all those books you think you could cite a few?
I highly doubt you are as informed as you claim to be, given none of what you say is corroborated IN scripture.
So how about you [edited] SHOW us what you actually KNOW from scripture?

 

[StanJ]

If you read what I said, you will see that I stated that my involvement was with the Brethren AND pastor led churches AND I have read over 40 books on the subject. I did not come to any conclusion based solely on "I".

I DID read what you wrote, hence my response, which you now deflect on. I don't really care how many books you have read. You have to actually be able to appropriate the truth from them AND scripture, which so far you have not. Basically your conclusion and opining are ALL you.

 

[StanJ]

The word apostle is recorded eight times in the gospels and every one refers to the 12 that Jesus chose to follow him. My study was in the context of the church as I indicated and in that context it was Paul as apostle, a ministry not a title.
If I was studying the ministry of the apostle as a stand alone subject, which I wasn't, my finding might be different.

Actually, it is 88 times, and you can't take the word itself OUT of context, which you seem to do on a regular basis with lots of things.

 

[StanJ]

​No they were not as the Elders in the gospels were usually referred to in regards to the Jewish religion which I was not studying.

So then please be more specific in your posts rather than making BROAD assertions, that do NOT form any kind of precedent or rule.

 

[StanJ]

My experience was based on attendance at Brethren Churches, Baptist, Methodist, Charismatic, Anglican, Pentecostal, Non Denominational and reading over 40 books on the subject of the church.

​I have never attended or been involved in the Mormon church so I cannot give any view as to their practices.

One thing I was taught at bible college was that you never form a doctrine based on ONE a verse of scripture. Many people contend that you pay people in the church based on the previous verse "Let the elders who take the lead well be counted worthy of double honor, especially those laboring in Word and teaching" but when you look into it it doesn't have anything to do with paying someone a salary as the word honour is the same word that is used to give honour to Jesus so that would mean according to the interpretation that you have to pay Jesus.

Again, if this IS the case, then you should elucidate it up front and not make your assertions so sweeping. In any event, you experience may have been in Brethren churches but the constitution of the other denominations, precludes you from being correct.

Very good, so why do you base your view of women teaching on one verse?
Funny how you SAY you don't understand abstracts, but are able to see them when you want to?
So as the Greek μισθός (misthos) connotes actual wages as Jesus also spoke of in Matt 20:8, how do you manage to make it an abstract type of wage?

 

[marksman]

Do you use a piano or any other musical instrument in your worship service?
The New Testament never once mentions instrumental music in the service, and there are churches that will not use them because of this.

It also doesn't mention electricity or indoor plumbing...but I don't think anyone has a problem with these.

Why you are so focused on a meeting place is totally beyond me.

However, just so that you know, "Love Inc." meets in our homes.

Why are you afraid to answer the question?

 

[marksman]

I DID read what you wrote, hence my response, which you now deflect on. I don't really care how many books you have read. You have to actually be able to appropriate the truth from them AND scripture, which so far you have not. Basically your conclusion and opining are ALL you.

Putting together the writings of over 40 authors is all me?

 

[marksman]

Actually, it is 88 times, and you can't take the word itself OUT of context, which you seem to do on a regular basis with lots of things.

I did not take the word apostle in the gospels out of context because my study did not include the 12 apostles in the gospels as that period was prechurch. My study was during the New Testament Church period.

 

[marksman]

So then please be more specific in your posts rather than making BROAD assertions, that do NOT form any kind of precedent or rule.

I could not be more specific that to give you all the verses that spoke of Elders in the New Testament Church context which is the period that I was studying.

When a writer is studying the book of Acts say, they don't usually add a commentary on the book of Job.

 

[marksman]

Actually, it is 88 times, and you can't take the word itself OUT of context, which you seem to do on a regular basis with lots of things.

​I don't consider referring to the original Greek as taking things out of context. Just as matter of interest, have you done an in depth study of the New Testament Church?

 

[marksman]

This is fairly innocuous and not justification for your POV. With all those books you think you could cite a few?
I highly doubt you are as informed as you claim to be, given none of what you say is corroborated IN scripture.
So how about you [edited] SHOW us what you actually KNOW from scripture?

I would cite a few but I don't think that it would achieve anything. Your cynical attitude to my studies is very obvious so it would only give you another opportunity to rubbish my work and study.

 

[marksman]

So then please be more specific in your posts rather than making BROAD assertions, that do NOT form any kind of precedent or rule.

I wasn't aware that I was trying to form a precedent or rule.

 

[marksman]

Again, if this IS the case, then you should elucidate it up front and not make your assertions so sweeping. In any event, you experience may have been in Brethren churches but the constitution of the other denominations, precludes you from being correct.

Very good, so why do you base your view of women teaching on one verse?
Funny how you SAY you don't understand abstracts, but are able to see them when you want to?
So as the Greek μισθός (misthos) connotes actual wages as Jesus also spoke of in Matt 20:8, how do you manage to make it an abstract type of wage?

Your first comment I have no idea what you are eluding to.

I do not base my view of women on one verse.

​I don't understand abstracts as in "this"

I didn't make it an abstract type of wage.

 

[Barrd]

Why are you afraid to answer the question?

I answered your question a long time ago.
I see no problem at all with a group of people having a building to meet in.
I see no problem with them spending a reasonable amount of money to have a building that meets their needs, and that they can enjoy meeting in.
Now, when you say "millions of dollars" I cringe. I suppose having to work so hard for most of my life just to make ends meet might have something to do with that. However, it is not for me to judge how a congregation decides to spend their own money.
It isn't up to you, either.

 

[Barrd]

I would cite a few but I don't think that it would achieve anything. Your cynical attitude to my studies is very obvious so it would only give you another opportunity to rubbish my work and study.

Why don't you cite a few for us anyhow?
Perhaps someone else could learn something. Why be so selfish?

 

[StanJ]

Putting together the writings of over 40 authors is all me?

Claiming that and proving it are not the same thing...a fact you should be well aware of.

 

[StanJ]

I did not take the word apostle in the gospels out of context because my study did not include the 12 apostles in the gospels as that period was prechurch. My study was during the New Testament Church period.

Kinda funny that it is actually used 8 times in the gospels, I in Matthew and Mark and 7 in Luke, and you say you didn't use it from there? You contradict yourself, unsurprisingly. You do seem to have a problem following your own posts?