Trusting God is believing every word that proceed out of the mouth of God. You can not trust in that which you don't know.
You can start knowing God by asking Him for His Spirit.
What is Trusting God, exactly?
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Trusting God is believing every word that proceed out of the mouth of God. You can not trust in that which you don't know.
You can start knowing God by asking Him for His Spirit.
Mankind CAN have His life, many are called, a person MUST make a decision, it is not automatic.
The more abundant life can begin now, we do not have to wait for this, (John 3:15). We are partakers of the divine nature, (2 Peter 1:4). Even as He walked, so should we (1John2:6).
I have been crucified with Christ, it is no longer I that lives but Christ who lives in me (Galatians 2:20). We consider ourselves dead and made alive in Christ.
Only a few are chosen, you have changed what the word says. "many are called, FEW are chosen" Matthew 22:14.
Your doctrine has taken all responsibility from the individual, we are not required to do anything and we can look back and see what the patriarchs were required to do in obedience to God. Noah had to build the ark, Abraham left his country,etc. We can also learn of what happens to the person who is disobedient, Jonah was swallowed by a fish, David's son died, Saul's misfortunes, etc.
The word tells us of a great falling away, apostates. It is why the word has warnings and conditional statements, all of these you have ignored.
You have changed what the word says, you have added to it and taken away from it.
The whole point of Jesus coming here was to set up His Kingdom on earth, the Kingdom is here, within us, Luke 17:20-21.
Creation is about God's glory.
Not really, your doctrine is out there for me. We are not robots, we have choice, we can fall, not all will be saved. Your doctrine is far from what the word actually says.
Very well said. The emboldened sentence, when joined to Isaiah 42:1 Behold my servant, whom I uphold; mine elect, [in whom] my soul delighteth; I have put my spirit upon him: he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles.' explains how we are 'elect' in Him.
Dear JohnnyB,
You said:
Mankind CAN have His life, many are called, a person MUST make a decision, it is not automatic.
You are right, the decision is not "automatiic" but Christ is the cause of us making the decision and we can only make that decision when He decides for us to make it. There is plenty of scripture that supports my statement.
You said:
The more abundant life can begin now, we do not have to wait for this, (John 3:15). We are partakers of the divine nature, (2 Peter 1:4). Even as He walked, so should we (1John2:6).
We can only get a small taste of the more abundant life now because we still sin and we only have a downpayment of the Holy Spirit. We do not have the full measure of the Spirit until the resurrection.
You said:
I have been crucified with Christ, it is no longer I that lives but Christ who lives in me (Galatians 2:20). We consider ourselves dead and made alive in Christ.
I agree.
You said:
Only a few are chosen, you have changed what the word says. "many are called, FEW are chosen" Matthew 22:14.
Christ is speaking of those being chosen for the blessing of the church. Many are called into the church but only a few are chosen to be His church. The rest of mankind will miss the blessing of the church but scripture is very clear that all mankind will someday receive salvation in the Kingdom of Heaven. The church is only the first fruits of the harvest - not the entire harvest.
You said:
Your doctrine has taken all responsibility from the individual, we are not required to do anything and we can look back and see what the patriarchs were required to do in obedience to God. Noah had to build the ark, Abraham left his country,etc. We can also learn of what happens to the person who is disobedient, Jonah was swallowed by a fish, David's son died, Saul's misfortunes, etc.
The individual cannot save himself. Christ is the Savior and will give us all we need to come to Him and be saved. The carnal mind hates God and will never come to Christ until the Father drags us to Him. Then Christ will give us of His faith and Spirit that will lead us to salvation. We can do nothing of our own accord. Our salvation is 100% the work of Christ, lest any man should boast.
The word tells us of a great falling away, apostates. It is why the word has warnings and conditional statements, all of these you have ignored.
There is a great falling away. All the organized churches of the world are harlot. That is why Christ tells those "few" that He chooses for His true church to "come out of her my people". The warnings and conditional statements only apply to being in His true church. Christ is choosing His Elect now, the first fruits, the best of the harvest. We must grow to maturity in Christ and produce fruit and remain faithful until the end. Otherwise, we will be a castaway and not receive the blessing of being in Christ's church. But our ultimate salvation is still assured but we will not attain it until after our judgment in the Lake of Fire age. Don't confuse the scripture that apply to the church and the ones that speak of be saved. We will all be saved by Christ but only a few will be chosen for the church. Christ chooses who will be in the church and He will not let them slip out of His hand. If we are not chosen, then we are promised salvation in the final age. It is ALL the work of Christ. We must wait on Christ to save us when He has chosen to do it. We have no choice in the matter because we cannot save ourselves.
You said:
You have changed what the word says, you have added to it and taken away from it.
I do not add or take away words from scripture. You must rightly divide the word and know when scripture is speaking of being saved into the church or being saved later into the Kingdom of Heaven.
You said:
The whole point of Jesus coming here was to set up His Kingdom on earth, the Kingdom is here, within us, Luke 17:20-21.
Yes, Christ came to setup His Kingdom here on earth. He does that by saving the world and making the world into the children of God. The Kingdom of Heaven is not physical but spiritual, and is within each person as you say. When the Holy Spirit dwells in all of mankind, Christ will be finished setting up His Kingdom on earth and will deliver it up to the Father and then God will be "all in all". All mankind will finally be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God (Rom 8:21)
You said:
Creation is about God's glory.
Yes, but the pupose of the creation is the make many children of God.
You said:
Not really, your doctrine is out there for me. We are not robots, we have choice, we can fall, not all will be saved. Your doctrine is far from what the word actually says.
What I teach is exactly what the Word of God says. We do make choices but God is the cause behind the choices we make. No man can come to Christ unless the Father drags him. No one has the power to come to Christ without God being the cause behind it. Scripture clearly says that all mankind will be saved. And it clearly says that only a few will be chosen for His church. The church is only the first small group to be saved - they are considered the best part of the havest. Those who chosen for the blessing of the church will rule and reign with Christ until the full harvest of mankind is complete. Your lack of understanding this truth is causing you to misunderstand the whole of scripture.
If only a few are saved as you contend, then the verses of scripture are lies which they cannot be:
1John 4:14 And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world.
1 Tim 2:4-6 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.
Phi 2:10-11 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
In due time, Christ will save all of mankind. However, He is not trying to save us all in this age. He is only choosing His church who He will use in the final age to bring in the complete harvest of mankind. As scripture says, here in lies the patience of the saints.
Joe
You said:
Mankind CAN have His life, many are called, a person MUST make a decision, it is not automatic.
You are right, the decision is not "automatiic" but Christ is the cause of us making the decision and we can only make that decision when He decides for us to make it. There is plenty of scripture that supports my statement.
You said:
The more abundant life can begin now, we do not have to wait for this, (John 3:15). We are partakers of the divine nature, (2 Peter 1:4). Even as He walked, so should we (1John2:6).
We can only get a small taste of the more abundant life now because we still sin and we only have a downpayment of the Holy Spirit. We do not have the full measure of the Spirit until the resurrection.
You said:
I have been crucified with Christ, it is no longer I that lives but Christ who lives in me (Galatians 2:20). We consider ourselves dead and made alive in Christ.
I agree.
You said:
Only a few are chosen, you have changed what the word says. "many are called, FEW are chosen" Matthew 22:14.
Christ is speaking of those being chosen for the blessing of the church. Many are called into the church but only a few are chosen to be His church. The rest of mankind will miss the blessing of the church but scripture is very clear that all mankind will someday receive salvation in the Kingdom of Heaven. The church is only the first fruits of the harvest - not the entire harvest.
You said:
Your doctrine has taken all responsibility from the individual, we are not required to do anything and we can look back and see what the patriarchs were required to do in obedience to God. Noah had to build the ark, Abraham left his country,etc. We can also learn of what happens to the person who is disobedient, Jonah was swallowed by a fish, David's son died, Saul's misfortunes, etc.
The individual cannot save himself. Christ is the Savior and will give us all we need to come to Him and be saved. The carnal mind hates God and will never come to Christ until the Father drags us to Him. Then Christ will give us of His faith and Spirit that will lead us to salvation. We can do nothing of our own accord. Our salvation is 100% the work of Christ, lest any man should boast.
The word tells us of a great falling away, apostates. It is why the word has warnings and conditional statements, all of these you have ignored.
There is a great falling away. All the organized churches of the world are harlot. That is why Christ tells those "few" that He chooses for His true church to "come out of her my people". The warnings and conditional statements only apply to being in His true church. Christ is choosing His Elect now, the first fruits, the best of the harvest. We must grow to maturity in Christ and produce fruit and remain faithful until the end. Otherwise, we will be a castaway and not receive the blessing of being in Christ's church. But our ultimate salvation is still assured but we will not attain it until after our judgment in the Lake of Fire age. Don't confuse the scripture that apply to the church and the ones that speak of be saved. We will all be saved by Christ but only a few will be chosen for the church. Christ chooses who will be in the church and He will not let them slip out of His hand. If we are not chosen, then we are promised salvation in the final age. It is ALL the work of Christ. We must wait on Christ to save us when He has chosen to do it. We have no choice in the matter because we cannot save ourselves.
You said:
You have changed what the word says, you have added to it and taken away from it.
I do not add or take away words from scripture. You must rightly divide the word and know when scripture is speaking of being saved into the church or being saved later into the Kingdom of Heaven.
You said:
The whole point of Jesus coming here was to set up His Kingdom on earth, the Kingdom is here, within us, Luke 17:20-21.
Yes, Christ came to setup His Kingdom here on earth. He does that by saving the world and making the world into the children of God. The Kingdom of Heaven is not physical but spiritual, and is within each person as you say. When the Holy Spirit dwells in all of mankind, Christ will be finished setting up His Kingdom on earth and will deliver it up to the Father and then God will be "all in all". All mankind will finally be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God (Rom 8:21)
You said:
Creation is about God's glory.
Yes, but the pupose of the creation is the make many children of God.
You said:
Not really, your doctrine is out there for me. We are not robots, we have choice, we can fall, not all will be saved. Your doctrine is far from what the word actually says.
What I teach is exactly what the Word of God says. We do make choices but God is the cause behind the choices we make. No man can come to Christ unless the Father drags him. No one has the power to come to Christ without God being the cause behind it. Scripture clearly says that all mankind will be saved. And it clearly says that only a few will be chosen for His church. The church is only the first small group to be saved - they are considered the best part of the havest. Those who chosen for the blessing of the church will rule and reign with Christ until the full harvest of mankind is complete. Your lack of understanding this truth is causing you to misunderstand the whole of scripture.
If only a few are saved as you contend, then the verses of scripture are lies which they cannot be:
1John 4:14 And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world.
1 Tim 2:4-6 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.
Phi 2:10-11 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
In due time, Christ will save all of mankind. However, He is not trying to save us all in this age. He is only choosing His church who He will use in the final age to bring in the complete harvest of mankind. As scripture says, here in lies the patience of the saints.
Joe
Hey Joe,
We disagree on so many points. When someone looks through scripture with a filter on, as you are doing with your universalism beliefs, then it is very difficult for you to see anything else. You are leaving ALOT of scripture out.
We disagree on so many points. When someone looks through scripture with a filter on, as you are doing with your universalism beliefs, then it is very difficult for you to see anything else. You are leaving ALOT of scripture out.
And, as Johnny said, 'You are leaving ALOT of scripture out', there is much more which does not support your statement, Joe.
I note your use of the word 'drags', which suggests you're an adherent to Stephen Jones' teachings. Yes, 'drag' is the correct translation for the Greek word, but it is qualified entirely be a sentence a little further on in John 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believes not is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. God does not tolerate unbelief.
Stephen Jones' proposition that after the resurrection, at judgment, there will be no choice for some people but to obey God to the saving of their lives eternally - has no scriptural support whatever. Dan 12:2 and John 5:29 agree with John 3:18. The obedience those who did 'not believe' will be doing, will comply with Matt 7:23, Matt 24:51, Matt 25:30, 41, 46, Luke 13:27, 28.
Knowing your distaste for God's fires of destruction, I've missed out the verses which mention 'furnace of fire'. But, it seems to me it's dishonest to try to find a way round them, rather than facing them square on - learn from scripture how to avoid that fate, and obey all that is required to avoid that fate. Daniel 3:16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22 instructs us that God is able to preserve His own, while those who are not, will perish. Do you not see the paradox - that those who were cast into the fiery furnace came out unscathed to a new life, and those who remained outside the furnace, perished?
There many other verses which show God actively pursuing and destroying His enemies both from among Israel, from before Israel, and from among those claiming to be in the new Israel, the Church - 1 Peter 4:17.
There is another point too, which is that names are blotted out of the book of life as God accepts their decision to turn away from Him. There will be a final reckoning for us all: Rev 20:12, Matt 22:12, 13, is altogether a different outcome from Luke 14:10.
To jburic09032,
'Trusting God' is what Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego did in the verses above, from Daniel 3. See also 1 Peter 1:4 - 9 especially.
Dear JohnnyB,
I have studied the whole of scripture and do not know of any verses that contradict my understanding. I will try to keep this simple: why do you not believe this scripture?:
1Tim 2:4_6 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.
Is it because you just don't see how Christ can actually "have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth"? Why don't you believe it? Do you think God is just not that powerful? Don't you know that God is more than powerful enough to have His "will" be done on earth as it is in heaven? Where is your faith?
Joe
Dear Dragonfly,
You said:
And, as Johnny said, 'You are leaving ALOT of scripture out', there is much more which does not support your statement, Joe.
I do not know of ANY scripture that disagrees with my understanding. The scriptures that give most people trouble in believing that Jesus truly is the Savior of the world are the ones which are either 1). speaking of missing the blessing of the church or 2). are written is symbolic (spiritual) language and the reader treats them as being literal. Here is an example of spiritual language:
Luke 22:36-38 Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take [it], and likewise [his] scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one. For I say unto you, that this that is written must yet be accomplished in me, And he was reckoned among the transgressors: for the things concerning me have an end. And they said, Lord, behold, here are two swords. And he said unto them, It is enough.
Do you believe Christ was telling His disicples to go a buy a literal sword? If you do, then you are missing the message Christ is telling us. The "sword" is the Word of God. And when they told Christ that they had two swords, Christ said it is enough. Christ is saying that a double witness of scripture is all that is necessary as a witness to the truth. Likewise, most of what Christ said is the same. If you do not understand what Christ is saying about buying a sword, then you will never understand the many deeper messages He spoke concerning. Jesus said that His words are "spirit" and since His words are spirit, one must have spiritual eyes and ears to understand them. That is why Christ frequently said His messages are only for His Elect (chosen) who have been given spiritual "eyes and ears" to understand. His Truth is concealed to the "many called".
Matt 13:11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.
The parables are another example of Him concealing His true meaning. Also, the book of Revelation was given to John in spiritual symbols. All of which are not to be understood literally. The Lake of Fire is not a literal lake nor is it literal fire. The Lake of Fire is a symbol that represents a spiritual truth. Christ would never torment people in literal fire nor does Christ advocate us buying a literal sword (or gun for that matter). Christ said to love your enemies and not to resist evil. Do you believe in defending yourself if you are assaulted? You shouldn't if you are a follower of Christ. Wee can try to escape from evil but we are command to never resist it. Do you support our military? You shouldn't for the same reasons - doing so goes against the teachings of Christ. Christ even said that our citizenship is in heaven and not on the earth. We are forbidden to get involved in the "affairs of men". Certainly, all politics are the "affairs of men". We are to ignore such things, knowing that God's will is being done in those areas. We do not have His permission to try to change or influence the world when it concerns the "affairs of men". We are to love all men (even our enemies) and to do good. It is not our place to try to change the world. The world is evil by God's direction and we are not to concern ourselves in trying to set up somekind of earthly kingdom to change it. The Kingdom that Christ is setting up is within us. It does not come with perception (carnal eyes). Any scripture that seems to disagree with what I just said is like the scripture concerning buying a sword. The scripture's truth meaning is derived by spiritual discernment. The same goes with the scriptures that teach on fire. God is a consuming fire. God's judgment is spiritually considered a fire that burns for the purpose purifying - much in the same way gold is purified by fire. The fire takes the impurities out. The fire with which God will judge the world is the same. It will take the impurities out of those being judged. Judgment is absolutely necessary to save mankind. We all have impurities that must be burned out. The true church is being judged now in this age but the rest of mankind is not being judged now and remains evil. But their time will come in the Lake of Fire age and the end result will be the same. The judgment of God's Elect in this age burns their impurites out and makes them ready to join Christ in the heavenilies. Judgment will produce righteousness in everyone who is being judged.
Isa 26:9 With my soul have I desired thee in the night; yea, with my spirit within me will I seek thee early: for when thy judgments are in the earth, the inhabitants of the world will learn righteousness.
[font=Trebuchet MS"]1Peter 4:17 For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?[/font]
Without spiritual discernment of the sciptures, the scriptures will stay concealed. That is the reason that there are some MANY churches in the world that advocate so MANY different doctrines. The churches do not have any spiritual understanding. Their doctrines come from the carnal mind of man and there is no truth in them. They are spiritually blind just as Christ said of the Pharisees. Christ wants it that way for now - it is all part of His plan in creating a world full of God's children.
You said:
I note your use of the word 'drags', which suggests you're an adherent to Stephen Jones' teachings. Yes, 'drag' is the correct translation for the Greek word, but it is qualified entirely be a sentence a little further on in John 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believes not is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. God does not tolerate unbelief.
Stephen Jones' proposition that after the resurrection, at judgment, there will be no choice for some people but to obey God to the saving of their lives eternally - has no scriptural support whatever. Dan 12:2 and John 5:29 agree with John 3:18. The obedience those who did 'not believe' will be doing, will comply with Matt 7:23, Matt 24:51, Matt 25:30, 41, 46, Luke 13:27, 28.
I have studied Stephen Jones' teachings and disagree with most of what He teaches.
The path to salvation is the same for all men. Some will be harvested first (the church) but most will be harvested in the final age. The Jewish feasts symbolize this plan. The Feast of Tabernalces symbolizes the great engathering at the end of the growing season. That time will come in the final age.
You quoted John 3:18. Why do you believe that being condemned is eternal? It is not. Being condemned means that you are going to be judged and will have to pay for your sins. But once your sins are paid for, Christ will see to it that righteousness is produced from His judgment. Those being judged will be better for it. Then Christ will call them to Himself and save them in the same manner as He did His church.
When Christ told the Pharisees that publicans and harlots will get into the Kingdom of God before they will, doesn't that say anything to you about salvation and judgment?
Matt 21:31 Whether of them twain did the will of his father? They say unto him, The first. Jesus saith unto them, Verily I say unto you, That the publicans and the harlots go into the kingdom of God before you.
The pharisees that Christ spoke to died in their sins and will be cast into the Lake of Fire. But yet, Christ doesn't tell them that they will be condemned forever. He still lets them know that He will save them into the Kingdom some day but that they will be last to come - "the first will be last and the last first". What He told them directly conflicts with your hell doctrine.
When God judges "His enemies", He does so to produce good in them. That is how God loves His enemies - He does good to them. Certainly, those same pharisees in Matt 21:31 who will enter the Kingdom of Heaven someday, the same ones who crucified Christ, are considered by Christ to be His enemies. But Christ does not judge His enemies in literal fire for all eternity for no redeeming purpose as you believe. He loves His enemies and will do good to them. And doing good to them is to change them and cause them to repent and find salvation in the Kingdom of Heaven. Christ tells us to love our enemies, do you believe that He doesn't do the same to His enemies? The God I know and follow loves all of mankind and because of that love, He died for them and He will draw them to Himself and change them into creatures that are acceptable to Him.
You said:
Knowing your distaste for God's fires of destruction, I've missed out the verses which mention 'furnace of fire'. But, it seems to me it's dishonest to try to find a way round them, rather than facing them square on - learn from scripture how to avoid that fate, and obey all that is required to avoid that fate. Daniel 3:16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22 instructs us that God is able to preserve His own, while those who are not, will perish. Do you not see the paradox - that those who were cast into the fiery furnace came out unscathed to a new life, and those who remained outside the furnace, perished?
"Square on" is your way of saying that God's words are literal. They are not. Christ's Words are spirit and they are life:
John 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.
The literal understanding of scripture is for carnal minds. Spiritual understanding is for those who have been chosen and have had their spiritual vision healed (Mark 8:22-26).
Also, all of mankind is "His own". That is why God said that He so loved the world that He sent is only son to save us. Don't you know:
John 3:35 The Father loveth the Son, and hath given all things into his hand.
John 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
The Father gave all of mankind to Jesus and all those He gave to Christ will come to Him. No one will perish! God has spoken it and it will come to pass. Do you have faith to believe it?
You said:
There is another point too, which is that names are blotted out of the book of life as God accepts their decision to turn away from Him. There will be a final reckoning for us all: Rev 20:12, Matt 22:12, 13, is altogether a different outcome from Luke 14:10.
The Lamb's book of Life is for His church only. Also, God does not accept their decision to turn away from Him. God judges them so that they will be drawn to Him in the end. Judgment produces good in those being judged. Judgment has a redeeming purpose and it shows God's love for His enemies. God's ways are not mankind's way.
God is good to all and His mercies cover all His works:
Psa 145:9 The LORD is good to all: and his tender mercies are over all his works.
The only way this verse is true is for God to save all mankind. It cannot be "good" for anyone to be cast into your fabled hell for all eternity nor does it honor God's command to love your enemies. If you believe it does, then you do not follow the God I do.
Joe
Dragonfly, I thought some of Joe's teachings sounded familiar. Thanks for pointing Jones' out.
Axe
Dear Axehead, Dragonfly and JohnnyB,
I do NOT agree with most of Stephen Jones' teachings. He is just another harlot teacher seeking a following and financial support (but at least he doesn't teach your hell doctrine). As a last defense, you are simply trying to classify me into some harlot group/teacher because you have no scriptural response to my beliefs. Why do you ignore the scriptures that I post? Is it because they confirm what I teach and you have no response? Why won't you believe the scriptures? The ones that I have posted are "milk" and are easy to understand. Even my 11 year old son can understand them.
You are right though not to believe me merely because I say I am right BUT you should believe the scriptures. Again, WHY WON'T YOU BELIEVE THEM??? You really need to search within yourself for that answer. But if you can't find the answer within yourself, you might try scripture because it does explain why you won't believe. Of course, since you don't believe the scriptures that I post concerning God's plan, then you will probably not believe the scriptures that explain why you won't believe them.
Will someone please address the scriptures that I have posted and tell me why you don't believe they say what I believe they are saying?
Let's start with this very simple double witness of scripture:
1John 4:14 And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world.
1 Tim 2:4-6 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.
Anyone up to the task?
As you know, the title of this thread is "What is trusting God exactly?". Trusting God is believing that He can do what He says He will do, even when it seems impossible. For most people, it seems impossible for Christ to actually save all of mankind. But as for me, I trust Him enough to believe He can accomplish all that He says He will do. Where is your faith to believe Him?
Sincerely,
Joe
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I would like to start with your 1 Tim verse.
The better translation is here:
The better translation is here:
3 This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior,
4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.
This directly coincides with scripture as is shown here.
Ezek 18:23-24
23 “Do I have any pleasure in the death of the wicked,” declares the Lord God, “rather than that he should turn from his ways and live?
24 “But when a righteous man turns away from his righteousness, commits iniquity and does according to all the abominations that a wicked man does, will he live? All his righteous deeds which he has done will not be remembered for his treachery which he has committed and his sin which he has committed; for them he will die.
Ezek 18:32
32 “For I have no pleasure in the death of anyone who dies,” declares the Lord God. “Therefore, repent and live.”
Clearly in scripture the Lord God declares there are some who die.
Universalism or Ultimate Reconciliation
Universalism is a growing doctrine based on the false belief that universally all are already saved or will be saved in the end. Some even say “everyone is already saved they just don’t know it.
Universalism is a false teaching that says that God, through the atonement of Jesus, will ultimately bring reconciliation between God and all people throughout history. This reconciliation will occur regardless of whether they have trusted in or rejected Jesus as savior during their lifetime. This universal redemption will be realized in the future where God will bring all people to repentance. This repentance can happen while a person lives or after he has died and lives again in the millennium or some future state.
Additionally, a few universalists even maintain that Satan and all demons will likewise be reconciled to God.” See: www.carm.org/uni/universalism
It is true that “God was in Christ Jesus reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them.” However an objective universal truth is meaningless and useless to us, unless we subjectively apprehend to it by faith.
When we reach out by faith and personally receive that God has reconciled us to Himself by the death, burial and resurrection of His son Jesus, and we receive Jesus Christ, then we are born-again. But it is totally illegitimate to say we already are saved, we just don’t know it. That sounds like a new age phrase, “sin is only ignorance.” Even if I know the truth that Jesus did it all, salvation is not mine until I receive Him as my Lord and Savior and make Him my ALL. So, being enlightened doesn’t save us--what saves us is our choice to personally believe it, and receive Him who cleanses us of our sins; delivers me from the fallen satanic nature and fills me with His Spirit. It is only then that I am saved. Sad to say, many will refuse to obey the Gospel and will be lost. II Thessalonians 1:8-10 testifies to that fact.
1Th 1:8 For from you sounded out the word of the Lord not only in Macedonia and Achaia, but also in every place your faith to God-ward is spread abroad; so that we need not to speak any thing.
1Th 1:9 For they themselves shew of us what manner of entering in we had unto you, and how ye turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God;
1Th 1:10 And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.
Universalism is the beginning of the great deception which will eventually lead God's people into the apostasy prophesized in II Thessalonians. 2: 3. “Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition, who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sits in the temple of God showing himself that he is God.” You can’t fall away from something that you didn’t already have. This verse is talking to Christians.
I believe Universalism is greatly linked to the current "sin explosion" in the Church. And the "sin explosion" was prophesied.
Matt 24:12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.
Universalism and false oneness go hand in hand. False oneness says that we become God—(it is true that we are indwelt by and are an expression of God through Christ, but we never become deity.) That is what Satan thought he was choosing to be in his fall. This false union is what Paul warns against in these previously mentioned versed in II Thessalonians. Satan sitting in the temple of God (our bodies) saying that he is God. Then whatever I do or say is God without ever questioning the possibility of sin. Scary isn’t it? If this is all true, then sin is irradiated, and there must not be any hell. Eventually, Jesus loses his preeminence as “The way, The truth, and The life.” There ends up being many ways, many truths, and many roads to eternal life, which sadly forgets what Jesus said to his disciples, “no man comes to the Father, but by me.”
I have heard people say that, “everyone already has Jesus…The Jehovah Witnesses have Him, they just call him Jehovah. The Jews have him they just call him Yahweh, but it is really Jesus. The Muslim’s have Jesus, they just call him Allah.” If there is no hell, Jesus is a liar, the Gospel is a farce, we need not have personal faith for salvation. Universalism is dangerous. In my opinion it is a doctrine of demons. It tears down the foundations of our faith; it makes taking up our daily Cross irrelevant; and it leaves us in a dangerous passive state which counterfeits God’s promised “rest,” and leaves us totally indifferent to the true response and activity of faith.
If I believe this garbage, then why believe God for my personal salvation, my family member’s salvation, or for my unsaved friends? It makes personal responding faith invalid altogether. Yet in contrast to this outrageous heresy, there is a comforting verse in I Corinthians 11: 19, “For there must be also heresies among you, that they which are approved may be made manifest among you. Opposites show up each other, and make clear the truth from the lie. Have you ever heard people who believe in reincarnation talk about others that they don't like? I have heard them say, "Oh well, if he doesn’t get it right in this life, he will get it right the next time around.” I see in these people a faithless passivity which relies on the Devil’s lies. How sad. I often see this same kind of faithless passivity in the universalist who trusts in the devil’s doctrine of ultimate reconciliation instead of putting trust in the person of Christ who keeps the person to the end and saves him from a deserved hell. False oneness closes up all possibilities of any distinguishable opposites….Satan is not considered as a viable enemy….Sin is non-existent…There is no difference between the Creator and the creation; there is only oneness, eliminating unity (the two become one.)….There is no personal choice or faith response on man’s part (that appears to be separation)….Some even go so far as to say that there is no Trinity (there isn’t three in one, that is separation)….Others say it is wrong to distinguish between the sin and the sinner….There is no dividing soul/flesh from Spirit….There is no learning who you are not, and replacing that lie with who you really are…. And eventually there are no opposites, just a faithless gray oneness without distinctions.
True oneness is our union with our precious Lord and Savior; Jesus Christ and what He gained for us through His Cross. Jesus prayed for us to know this oneness like He knew it with His father. True oneness was not cheap for Him to know, and neither is it cheap for us either. Jesus, personally learned the obedience of faith by a painful process according to the bible, it says that He learned “by the things that He suffered,” (Heb. 5:8). Salvation is not salvation unless you loose your own self-life (Matt. 16:25) and by faith inherit the eternal life of Christ.
Axehead
P.S. Additional red flags and helpful links.
Some Universalists deny the Trinity and the Deity of Christ.
It is not possible to categorize all of universalists into one tidy doctrinal category. Its adherents vary in belief. Some are Arian (God is one person, Jesus is a creation). Some are Trinitarian. Others even lean toward new age concepts of man's divinity. So, universalism is not really a doctrine that identifies a group. Rather, it is a doctrine of different, even contradictory groups, who all claim universalism.
http://carm.org/christian-universalism
http://carm.org/universalism
Hi Joe,
The main problem I find with the scriptures you post, to which you request a comment, is the huge weight of conflicting scripture which you do not post. Your version of doctrine is very beguiling, simply because you have made up a solution for the two biggest problems on earth - sin and death - to accommodate your distaste for the destruction of those who reject God's rule over their lives in this life. By placing the responsibility for man's sin on God, you have removed all the culpability from man which God throughout scripture repeatedly puts on him.
While you refuse to accept the premise upon which God sent His Son to die for the sin and the sins of the world, none of your doctrine ties up properly with the whole counsel of God through His word, although it's true that after the sacrifice of His Son, God desires all men to be saved. Rom 1, the second half, lays out the issues very clearly - that men who choose not to retain God in their knowledge, must repent or die.
The fact is, Adam died because he sinned, and in him the entire human race is already dead, unless individuals consciously choose to opt out of sin (and therefore save themselves from the inevitability of eternal death which accompanies sin) through faith in Christ; by whose death we may be freed from the power of sin, to walk in newness of (abundant) life now, as JohnnyB also stated.
This is the gospel which was preached by the apostles, received from Jesus Christ Himself, which you have altered very significantly.
For you to say
shows you have not understood how either the condemnation or the salvation, both spoken of in scripture, truly work.
If any of us had to pay for our own sins, that would be the end of us.
But there is one way to eternal life, and that is to repent from sin now, and receive Jesus Christ as Saviour and Lord. Then Father will send the Holy Spirit to empower the new believer to walk in newness of life, with power over sin. 1 John 2:1, 1 John 3:3, 1 Peter 4:1, 2, Gal 5:24.
Your doctrine that not only did God intend for Adam (created in His own image) to sin, but by implication calls sin 'good', is an abomination.
God's acquaintance with evil Gen 3:5, 22 does not mean there is sin in God. God is utterly holy and pure.
Please understand this God purifies us by the fire in this life, and after death, judgment will finalise our eternal end. Heb 9:27.
As to your request for a duel of scriptures, I don't have time for that unless you are genuinely open to seeing truth which is writ plain and large throughout His word. Claiming you already know God's plan, while at the same time ignoring the most significant parts of His revelation of His heart throughout the book, means you have a lot of travelling to do to come into full agreement with God.
You have mentioned carnal thinking several times, and there is indeed carnal thinking. One of the hallmarks of it, is its desire for self-preservation in the face of the awful truth about the inevitability of death. The carnal mind will figure out endless solutions which preserve itself, its dignity, its academic integrity, its faith in itself, its desire to have some innate goodness acknowledged which means it doesn't have to die one day, (I could go on) - but the fact of salvation is, the whole person has to accept Christ's death, or, its own. There are no other options.
Once you 'get' that, you'll be flying. Reckoning yourself dead, you will begin to live in God, with power over sin. Rom 6:7 - 12. By this means, if you are faithful to abide in Christ, you escape the wrath of God, and eternal damnation. This is the only way to eternal life.
The main problem I find with the scriptures you post, to which you request a comment, is the huge weight of conflicting scripture which you do not post. Your version of doctrine is very beguiling, simply because you have made up a solution for the two biggest problems on earth - sin and death - to accommodate your distaste for the destruction of those who reject God's rule over their lives in this life. By placing the responsibility for man's sin on God, you have removed all the culpability from man which God throughout scripture repeatedly puts on him.
While you refuse to accept the premise upon which God sent His Son to die for the sin and the sins of the world, none of your doctrine ties up properly with the whole counsel of God through His word, although it's true that after the sacrifice of His Son, God desires all men to be saved. Rom 1, the second half, lays out the issues very clearly - that men who choose not to retain God in their knowledge, must repent or die.
The fact is, Adam died because he sinned, and in him the entire human race is already dead, unless individuals consciously choose to opt out of sin (and therefore save themselves from the inevitability of eternal death which accompanies sin) through faith in Christ; by whose death we may be freed from the power of sin, to walk in newness of (abundant) life now, as JohnnyB also stated.
This is the gospel which was preached by the apostles, received from Jesus Christ Himself, which you have altered very significantly.
For you to say
shows you have not understood how either the condemnation or the salvation, both spoken of in scripture, truly work.
If any of us had to pay for our own sins, that would be the end of us.
But there is one way to eternal life, and that is to repent from sin now, and receive Jesus Christ as Saviour and Lord. Then Father will send the Holy Spirit to empower the new believer to walk in newness of life, with power over sin. 1 John 2:1, 1 John 3:3, 1 Peter 4:1, 2, Gal 5:24.
Your doctrine that not only did God intend for Adam (created in His own image) to sin, but by implication calls sin 'good', is an abomination.
God's acquaintance with evil Gen 3:5, 22 does not mean there is sin in God. God is utterly holy and pure.
Please understand this God purifies us by the fire in this life, and after death, judgment will finalise our eternal end. Heb 9:27.
As to your request for a duel of scriptures, I don't have time for that unless you are genuinely open to seeing truth which is writ plain and large throughout His word. Claiming you already know God's plan, while at the same time ignoring the most significant parts of His revelation of His heart throughout the book, means you have a lot of travelling to do to come into full agreement with God.
You have mentioned carnal thinking several times, and there is indeed carnal thinking. One of the hallmarks of it, is its desire for self-preservation in the face of the awful truth about the inevitability of death. The carnal mind will figure out endless solutions which preserve itself, its dignity, its academic integrity, its faith in itself, its desire to have some innate goodness acknowledged which means it doesn't have to die one day, (I could go on) - but the fact of salvation is, the whole person has to accept Christ's death, or, its own. There are no other options.
Once you 'get' that, you'll be flying. Reckoning yourself dead, you will begin to live in God, with power over sin. Rom 6:7 - 12. By this means, if you are faithful to abide in Christ, you escape the wrath of God, and eternal damnation. This is the only way to eternal life.
That was an OUTSTANDING post, dragonfly. And you did it perfectly without needing any scriptures. You brought out vital truths about the character of God and heart of man. Universalism is actually a very selfish and carnal belief.
Axehead
Dear Justaname,
The Greek word for "will have" in 1Tim2:4-6 is "the-lo" and it means:
1) to will, have in mind, intend
a) to be resolved or determined, to purpose
B) to desire, to wish
c) to love
1) to like to do a thing, be fond of doing
d) to take delight in, have pleasure
It doesn't really matter whether you want to translate the-lo as "will have" to "desires" because God will have all his desires. When you suggest that God will not have all that He desires or that pleases Him, you are bringing God down to the level of corruptible man. Do you not know that He is God and He will have all that He desires or pleases Him?
Isa 55:11 So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.
Job 23:13 But he is in one mind, and who can turn him? And what his soul desireth, that will he do. (Darby)
Isa 46:10-11 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure: Calling a ravenous bird from the east, the man that executeth my counsel from a far country: yea, I have spoken it, I will also bring it to pass; I have purposed it, I will also do it.
2 Chron 20:6 and he said, Jehovah, God of our fathers, art not thou God in the heavens, and rulest thou not over all the kingdoms of the nations? And in thy hand there is power and might, and none can withstand thee.
The above scriptures say that even if God only desires something , He will have it. You should believe Him. He certainly desires to save all mankind and He will bring it to pass, to be "testifed in due time".
So you see, it doesn't matter whether God "will have" something or "desires" something. For God, who being completely sovereign, ALWAYS gets want He wants or desires.
Now for your comments on Eze 18:23-24, it gives God no pleasure in the death of the wicked. But what does give God pleasure is when the wicked "turn from his way and live":
[font="Trebuchet MS""] [/font] [font="Trebuchet MS""] E ze 33:11 [/font][font="Trebuchet MS""] [/font]Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?
In this case too, God will have what pleases Him. Also, notice the verses say that the wicked will "die". Death is the penalty of sin. The penalty of everlasting hell is the penalty that the harlot church made up so has to have control over the population. It is not in scripture.
Christ came so that mankind would not perish (permanently die). Christ satisfied the law of sin & death with His own death on the cross for all mankind. We know this is true because He rose from the grave (death) and was given the keys to death and hell (the unseen place). Christ will now resurrect the WICKED back to life at the time of the upcoming resurrection. He will judge them and from that judgment, He will make them righteous in the same way He made those in His church righteous and that is by the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.
[font="Trebuchet MS""] Isa 26:9 With my soul have I desired thee in the night; yea, with my spirit within me will I seek thee early: for when thy judgments are in the earth, the inhabitants of the world will learn righteousness.[/font]
After the WICKED's judgment, then 1Tim 2-4-6 and numerous other verses will be proven to be true!:
[font="Trebuchet MS""] Rom 5:15 But shall not the act of favour be as the offence? For if by the offence of one the many have died, much rather has the grace of God, and the free gift in grace, which is by the one man Jesus Christ, abounded unto the many. (Darby)[/font]
[font="Trebuchet MS""] [/font]
[font="Trebuchet MS""]Rom 5:18-19 so then as it was by one offence towards all men to condemnation, so by one righteousness towards all men for justification of life. For as indeed by the disobedience of the one man the many have been constituted sinners, so also by the obedience of the one the many will be constituted righteous. (Darby)[/font]
[font="Trebuchet MS""] 1 Cor 15:21 F o r since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive . [/font]
1 Tim 4:10-11 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe. These things command and teach.
1 Cor 13:8 Love never fails;
Acts 3:20-21 And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you: Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.
1John 4:14 And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world.
Col 1:16-20 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: And he is before all things, and by him all things consist. And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence. For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell; And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.
2 Cor 5:18-21 and all things are of the God who has reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and given to us the ministry of that conciliation, how that God was in Christ, reconciled the world to himself, not reckoning to them their offences; and putting in us the word of that reconciliation. We are ambassadors therefore for Christ, God as it were beseeching by us, we entreat for Christ, Be reconciled to God.
Phi 2:10-11 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
Every knee will bow and the last time I checked the wicked have knees and they will, after their judgment, confess that Jesus is Lord to the glory of the Father. Scripture also says that no man can call Jesus Lord unless it is by the Holy Spirit.
[font="Trebuchet MS""] 1 Cor 12:3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost. [/font]
The indwelling of the Holy Spirit is what a "saved" person has dwelling in them. There can be no mistake, Jesus truly is the Savior of the world. Who can stop Him from fulfilling His desire to save all of mankind? I am amazed that the "church" who supposedly knows Him best, speaks so lowly of Him and His abilities. It is no wonder Christ will sprew the harlot church out of His mouth and tell them "I never knew you"!
Sincerely,
Joe
Universalism or Ultimate Reconciliation
Universalism is a growing doctrine based on the false belief that universally all are already saved or will be saved in the end. Some even say “everyone is already saved they just don’t know it.
Universalism is a false teaching that says that God, through the atonement of Jesus, will ultimately bring reconciliation between God and all people throughout history. This reconciliation will occur regardless of whether they have trusted in or rejected Jesus as savior during their lifetime. This universal redemption will be realized in the future where God will bring all people to repentance. This repentance can happen while a person lives or after he has died and lives again in the millennium or some future state.
Additionally, a few universalists even maintain that Satan and all demons will likewise be reconciled to God.” See: www.carm.org/uni/universalism
It is true that “God was in Christ Jesus reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them.” However an objective universal truth is meaningless and useless to us, unless we subjectively apprehend to it by faith.
When we reach out by faith and personally receive that God has reconciled us to Himself by the death, burial and resurrection of His son Jesus, and we receive Jesus Christ, then we are born-again. But it is totally illegitimate to say we already are saved, we just don’t know it. That sounds like a new age phrase, “sin is only ignorance.” Even if I know the truth that Jesus did it all, salvation is not mine until I receive Him as my Lord and Savior and make Him my ALL. So, being enlightened doesn’t save us--what saves us is our choice to personally believe it, and receive Him who cleanses us of our sins; delivers me from the fallen satanic nature and fills me with His Spirit. It is only then that I am saved. Sad to say, many will refuse to obey the Gospel and will be lost. II Thessalonians 1:8-10 testifies to that fact.
1Th 1:8 For from you sounded out the word of the Lord not only in Macedonia and Achaia, but also in every place your faith to God-ward is spread abroad; so that we need not to speak any thing.
1Th 1:9 For they themselves shew of us what manner of entering in we had unto you, and how ye turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God;
1Th 1:10 And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.
Universalism is the beginning of the great deception which will eventually lead God's people into the apostasy prophesized in II Thessalonians. 2: 3. “Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition, who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sits in the temple of God showing himself that he is God.” You can’t fall away from something that you didn’t already have. This verse is talking to Christians.
I believe Universalism is greatly linked to the current "sin explosion" in the Church. And the "sin explosion" was prophesied.
Matt 24:12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.
Universalism and false oneness go hand in hand. False oneness says that we become God—(it is true that we are indwelt by and are an expression of God through Christ, but we never become deity.) That is what Satan thought he was choosing to be in his fall. This false union is what Paul warns against in these previously mentioned versed in II Thessalonians. Satan sitting in the temple of God (our bodies) saying that he is God. Then whatever I do or say is God without ever questioning the possibility of sin. Scary isn’t it? If this is all true, then sin is irradiated, and there must not be any hell. Eventually, Jesus loses his preeminence as “The way, The truth, and The life.” There ends up being many ways, many truths, and many roads to eternal life, which sadly forgets what Jesus said to his disciples, “no man comes to the Father, but by me.”
I have heard people say that, “everyone already has Jesus…The Jehovah Witnesses have Him, they just call him Jehovah. The Jews have him they just call him Yahweh, but it is really Jesus. The Muslim’s have Jesus, they just call him Allah.” If there is no hell, Jesus is a liar, the Gospel is a farce, we need not have personal faith for salvation. Universalism is dangerous. In my opinion it is a doctrine of demons. It tears down the foundations of our faith; it makes taking up our daily Cross irrelevant; and it leaves us in a dangerous passive state which counterfeits God’s promised “rest,” and leaves us totally indifferent to the true response and activity of faith.
If I believe this garbage, then why believe God for my personal salvation, my family member’s salvation, or for my unsaved friends? It makes personal responding faith invalid altogether. Yet in contrast to this outrageous heresy, there is a comforting verse in I Corinthians 11: 19, “For there must be also heresies among you, that they which are approved may be made manifest among you. Opposites show up each other, and make clear the truth from the lie. Have you ever heard people who believe in reincarnation talk about others that they don't like? I have heard them say, "Oh well, if he doesn’t get it right in this life, he will get it right the next time around.” I see in these people a faithless passivity which relies on the Devil’s lies. How sad. I often see this same kind of faithless passivity in the universalist who trusts in the devil’s doctrine of ultimate reconciliation instead of putting trust in the person of Christ who keeps the person to the end and saves him from a deserved hell. False oneness closes up all possibilities of any distinguishable opposites….Satan is not considered as a viable enemy….Sin is non-existent…There is no difference between the Creator and the creation; there is only oneness, eliminating unity (the two become one.)….There is no personal choice or faith response on man’s part (that appears to be separation)….Some even go so far as to say that there is no Trinity (there isn’t three in one, that is separation)….Others say it is wrong to distinguish between the sin and the sinner….There is no dividing soul/flesh from Spirit….There is no learning who you are not, and replacing that lie with who you really are…. And eventually there are no opposites, just a faithless gray oneness without distinctions.
True oneness is our union with our precious Lord and Savior; Jesus Christ and what He gained for us through His Cross. Jesus prayed for us to know this oneness like He knew it with His father. True oneness was not cheap for Him to know, and neither is it cheap for us either. Jesus, personally learned the obedience of faith by a painful process according to the bible, it says that He learned “by the things that He suffered,” (Heb. 5:8). Salvation is not salvation unless you loose your own self-life (Matt. 16:25) and by faith inherit the eternal life of Christ.
Axehead
P.S. Additional red flags and helpful links.
Some Universalists deny the Trinity and the Deity of Christ.
It is not possible to categorize all of universalists into one tidy doctrinal category. Its adherents vary in belief. Some are Arian (God is one person, Jesus is a creation). Some are Trinitarian. Others even lean toward new age concepts of man's divinity. So, universalism is not really a doctrine that identifies a group. Rather, it is a doctrine of different, even contradictory groups, who all claim universalism.
http://carm.org/christian-universalism
http://carm.org/universalism
Dear Axehead,
Your cut and paste job on "universalism" does not impress me. I do not believe in "universalism", nor do I teach it. I believe in Christ and what He says. Justaname gave the common rebuttal to the verses that I presented. I gave him my response back to him. You should read it.
Joe
justaname
Disciple of Jesus Christ
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Hebrews 9:27
27 And inasmuch as it is appointed for men to die once and after this comes judgement
When the wicked stand before God in all His glory they will have no choice but to say "Jesus is Lord". It will be proven to them, yet God does not seek those who demand signs and wonders but blessed is the one who has not seen and believes. Never does it say in the Bible that the unbeliever will be honored with the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.
3B HELL
1C Sheol.(Psalm 16:9, 31:17, 9:17)
2C Hades. (Mat 11:23, Luke 10:15, Luke 16:23)
3C Gehenna. (Matthew 23:15-33, 25:41-46)
4C Tartaroo. (2Peter 2:4)
5C Abyss. (Luke 8:1, Rev 9:1)
6C Other terms. (Matthew 3:4, 13:42, 8:12, 22:13, 25:41 Revelation 21:8, 19:20)
Reconciliation will come by those redeemed and condemned.
Acts 3:20-21 And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you: Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.
Here Luke is speaking of the Day of the Lord.
1 Tim 4:10-11 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe. These things command and teach.
Yes Jesus is the Savior of the world, but that salvation is only effectual for those who believe. Only those who are "in Christ" are made alive, only those who believe are "in Christ."
What I think you are missing is what the judgement for the wicked is. Feel free to reference the various references to Hell to gain a better understanding of the judgement of the wicked.
27 And inasmuch as it is appointed for men to die once and after this comes judgement
When the wicked stand before God in all His glory they will have no choice but to say "Jesus is Lord". It will be proven to them, yet God does not seek those who demand signs and wonders but blessed is the one who has not seen and believes. Never does it say in the Bible that the unbeliever will be honored with the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.
3B HELL
1C Sheol.(Psalm 16:9, 31:17, 9:17)
2C Hades. (Mat 11:23, Luke 10:15, Luke 16:23)
3C Gehenna. (Matthew 23:15-33, 25:41-46)
4C Tartaroo. (2Peter 2:4)
5C Abyss. (Luke 8:1, Rev 9:1)
6C Other terms. (Matthew 3:4, 13:42, 8:12, 22:13, 25:41 Revelation 21:8, 19:20)
Reconciliation will come by those redeemed and condemned.
Acts 3:20-21 And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you: Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.
Here Luke is speaking of the Day of the Lord.
1 Tim 4:10-11 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe. These things command and teach.
Yes Jesus is the Savior of the world, but that salvation is only effectual for those who believe. Only those who are "in Christ" are made alive, only those who believe are "in Christ."
What I think you are missing is what the judgement for the wicked is. Feel free to reference the various references to Hell to gain a better understanding of the judgement of the wicked.
Dear Dragonfly,
You said:
The main problem I find with the scriptures you post, to which you request a comment, is the huge weight of conflicting scripture which you do not post. Your version of doctrine is very beguiling, simply because you have made up a solution for the two biggest problems on earth - sin and death - to accommodate your distaste for the destruction of those who reject God's rule over their lives in this life. By placing the responsibility for man's sin on God, you have removed all the culpability from man which God throughout scripture repeatedly puts on him.
So you must believe that scripture is a self conflicting mess??? It is not. As I have said before, the verses that give you trouble are 1). speaking of the church ONLY or 2). are written in parables or symbols when you do not understand. There are also some translation problems, too. The clear teaching of scripture is that God is responsible for our sinful condition but we are still "accountable" to God for those sins because we sin willingly. Since God was responsible and because He loves us, He sent His Son to set things right - to bring about the "restituition of ALL things". "All things" especially includes the "wicked" because we are all wicked.
You said:
While you refuse to accept the premise upon which God sent His Son to die for the sin and the sins of the world, none of your doctrine ties up properly with the whole counsel of God through His word, although it's true that after the sacrifice of His Son, God desires all men to be saved. Rom 1, the second half, lays out the issues very clearly - that men who choose not to retain God in their knowledge, must repent or die.
I addressed this with Justaname.
You said:
The fact is, Adam died because he sinned, and in him the entire human race is already dead, unless individuals consciously choose to opt out of sin (and therefore save themselves from the inevitability of eternal death which accompanies sin) through faith in Christ; by whose death we may be freed from the power of sin, to walk in newness of (abundant) life now, as JohnnyB also stated.
As you rightly said, "Adam died because he sinned and in him the entire human race is already dead". But what you said after that point is completely unscriptural and is the teachings of the harlot church. You said "choose to opt out of sin". We do not get to choose - God directs our path. He chooses who will be in His church and who will be saved in the great harvest of mankind. We do not merely "opt out" of the penalty and we do not save ourselves ("save themselves"). Christ is the Savior and it is His responsibility to save us. He draws us to Himself. He gives us faith. He causes us to repent. He causes us to die to our carnal nature. He resurrects us. All we do is exist and respond to His direction. He is God and mankind is "nothing". His will rules over our will. Why do you think man's will can resist God's will? It can't!
Also, we do not have "abundant life now". Do you still sin? Of course you do. Well, Christ came to give us abundant life and that is to strengthen us spiritually so that we DON'T sin anymore. He paid the sin debt for all mankind already and now He is working on gives all mankind life more abundantly. Until we have the full measure of the Holy Spirit directing our lifes, we still sin and are not fully saved. He starts with the church who are the first fruits of the harvest. He ends with the "great ingathering" (Feast of Tabernacles). Why do you believe that the first fruits of God's harvert is all that He is going to harvest. He has a full crop of mankind in the field and He will harvest the rest when they are made ready for the harvest. Why do you believe that He is going to "burn in hell" the rest of His crop? Why do you believe that God is a failure and will not have all that pleases HIm? Why do you beleive that mankind's "will" is too much for God to overcome? Where is you faith to believe the scriptures?
You said:
This is the gospel which was preached by the apostles, received from Jesus Christ Himself, which you have altered very significantly.
Here is the Gospel the apostles preached:
2 Cor 5:18-21 and all things are of the God who has reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and given to us the ministry of that conciliation, how that God was in Christ, reconciled the world to himself, not reckoning to them their offences; and putting in us the word of that reconciliation. We are ambassadors therefore for Christ, God as it were beseeching by us, we entreat for Christ, Be reconciled to God.
Jesus Christ has reconciled (past tense) all of mankind. Jesus has taken away the sins of the world.
John 1:29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.
Christ has given mankind "life". The penalty of sin which is death has been paid for all mankind. It does not make any difference whether a person believes it or not - they are going to be resurrected back to life after they die. The do not have the power to tell Christ no.
John 10:10 The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly.
But Christ has not finished His work for mankind YET. That is why 1Tim 2:4-6 ends with "to be testified in due time". He must also stop us all from ever sinning again. Just paying the sin debt isn't enough for us to be able to have a relationship with God. We must also stop sinning. Christ is going to accomplish this part of our salvation for all mankind but every man in his own order (1Cor 15:20-25). The "church" is first and then comes the end when the feast of ingathering occurs - the final and great harvest. Why can't you understand that the church is only the "fruit fruits" of the havrest and not the full harvest? Are you so ignorant of farming that you don't know what first fruits are?
Anyway, that is what the Gospel is as defined by scripture. IT IS "GOOD NEWS" FOR ALL OF MANKIND! Your gospel is a nightmare for more than 99% of all mankind. Where is the "Good News" for them?
You said:
For you to say... shows you have not understood how either the condemnation or the salvation, both spoken of in scripture, truly work.
If any of us had to pay for our own sins, that would be the end of us.
But there is one way to eternal life, and that is to repent from sin now, and receive Jesus Christ as Saviour and Lord. Then Father will send the Holy Spirit to empower the new believer to walk in newness of life, with power over sin. 1 John 2:1, 1 John 3:3, 1 Peter 4:1, 2, Gal 5:24.
Why do you say we must repent "now"? Don't you know that Christ's love and mercy never end, not even for the wicked? The "now" part is only if we are chosen by Christ to be in His church. If you are not chosen to be in His church, there is nothing you can do about it. Most of mankind is not even called to be in His church and even if you are called, only a few from the called are actually chosen. Those not chosen will have to enter the Kingdom of Heaven through the broad gate that leads to destruction (judgment) and be harvested in the final and great harvest. Those in the final and great harvest WILL come to Christ and will be made ready in the same matter as those who came to Christ earlier. There are no free passes. All roads lead to Christ and His salvation.
You said:
Your doctrine that not only did God intend for Adam (created in His own image) to sin, but by implication calls sin 'good', is an abomination.
Rom 8:20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,
God made the creature (mankind) subject to "vanity". We are subject to vanity because we are too spiritually weak not to sin. Therefore, Adam and Eve were too spirituallly weak not to sin. Don't you think God knew this when He created them this way? Of course, HE DID! He is God and knows everything. He even gave them a carnal body and a tempter to make us sinning machines. He wants it to be that way for now. Do you think He made a mistake and things didn't work out like He wanted. Do you think God is on plan B and sent Christ to fix His mistake? No - everything God created from the beginning was "good". It was good for the purposes of making children of God.
You said:
God's acquaintance with evil Gen 3:5, 22 does not mean there is sin in God. God is utterly holy and pure.
Of course, there is NO sin or evil in God. I never said otherwise. God is holy and all knowing and all powerful and all present. He NEVER makes a mistake and He ALWAYS accomplishes all that He desires to accomplish.
You said:
Please understand this God purifies us by the fire in this life, and after death, judgment will finalise our eternal end. Heb 9:27.
God purifies us by fire in this life ONLY IF Christ has chosen you to be in His church. All others (the many called and unbelievers) are not being judged now. If they were, then the whole world would be in the process of being made righteous - which they are not. Judgment is good and is necessary in order for mankind to become children of God. God's judgment is no different for the church (burn with fire) than it is for anyone else that He judges later. His judgment produces righteousness and God does not change His ways. Or did you not know that?
You said:
As to your request for a duel of scriptures, I don't have time for that unless you are genuinely open to seeing truth which is writ plain and large throughout His word. Claiming you already know God's plan, while at the same time ignoring the most significant parts of His revelation of His heart throughout the book, means you have a lot of travelling to do to come into full agreement with God.
I spent the first 44 years of my life in the harlot church. Thanks to Christ, He healed my spiritual vision and called me out of her. There is NO chance of me going back. God desires love, forgiveness and mercy to be in our hearts. Your doctrines don't show that God has much in His.
God has revealed Himself to me and it wasn't for anything I did because there is no righteousness in me apart from Christ. He did It because of His grace and His deciding to chose to bless me. I have high confidence that I am in full agreement with God in my understanding and I know that someday I will be in full agreement with God in my walk after Christ has finished His work in me. But in the end, I will be just one of billions and billions of God's new children whom He fully loves just as much as He loves me.
You said:
You have mentioned carnal thinking several times, and there is indeed carnal thinking. One of the hallmarks of it, is its desire for self-preservation in the face of the awful truth about the inevitability of death. The carnal mind will figure out endless solutions which preserve itself, its dignity, its academic integrity, its faith in itself, its desire to have some innate goodness acknowledged which means it doesn't have to die one day, (I could go on) - but the fact of salvation is, the whole person has to accept Christ's death, or, its own. There are no other options.
Why do you keep believing that any of mankind is going to perish in death? Surely you agree that scripture says that Christ is going to resurrect the dead - all of the dead???
Also, where is your scriptural defintion on what being carnally minded is like? I know the verses that speak of the carnally minded and your comments are not from them. They are ex-bibical. We are commanded not to "think above what is written".
You said:
Once you 'get' that, you'll be flying. Reckoning yourself dead, you will begin to live in God, with power over sin. Rom 6:7 - 12. By this means, if you are faithful to abide in Christ, you escape the wrath of God, and eternal damnation. This is the only way to eternal life.
Only His chosen church will escape the wrath of God but they too will have to be destroyed. Being destroyed is what it means to "die to self" or "dying daily". All others will experience being destroyed in the Lake of Fire. It is not eternal destruction. The Greek word that is translated as "everlasting" or "forever" has been improperly translated. The root of the Greek word is "aion" meaning age. It adjective form means pertaining to a age. A "age" has a beginning and an end. It cannot ever mean everlasting or eternal. That additional definition was added to accomodate the harlot church many centuries ago. But at the time of the writing of scripture, it only meant pertaining to an age.
It saddens me you cannot see and know the truly loving God that I know. He is full of mercy and forgiveness. He loves His creation and will have His desire of changing us into children of God. My God really is God!
Joe
Dear Axehead,
All your beliefs are supported "without any scriptures" because you have none to present. You have elevated your carning reasoning to supercede the truth of scripture.
Joe
You said:
The main problem I find with the scriptures you post, to which you request a comment, is the huge weight of conflicting scripture which you do not post. Your version of doctrine is very beguiling, simply because you have made up a solution for the two biggest problems on earth - sin and death - to accommodate your distaste for the destruction of those who reject God's rule over their lives in this life. By placing the responsibility for man's sin on God, you have removed all the culpability from man which God throughout scripture repeatedly puts on him.
So you must believe that scripture is a self conflicting mess??? It is not. As I have said before, the verses that give you trouble are 1). speaking of the church ONLY or 2). are written in parables or symbols when you do not understand. There are also some translation problems, too. The clear teaching of scripture is that God is responsible for our sinful condition but we are still "accountable" to God for those sins because we sin willingly. Since God was responsible and because He loves us, He sent His Son to set things right - to bring about the "restituition of ALL things". "All things" especially includes the "wicked" because we are all wicked.
You said:
While you refuse to accept the premise upon which God sent His Son to die for the sin and the sins of the world, none of your doctrine ties up properly with the whole counsel of God through His word, although it's true that after the sacrifice of His Son, God desires all men to be saved. Rom 1, the second half, lays out the issues very clearly - that men who choose not to retain God in their knowledge, must repent or die.
I addressed this with Justaname.
You said:
The fact is, Adam died because he sinned, and in him the entire human race is already dead, unless individuals consciously choose to opt out of sin (and therefore save themselves from the inevitability of eternal death which accompanies sin) through faith in Christ; by whose death we may be freed from the power of sin, to walk in newness of (abundant) life now, as JohnnyB also stated.
As you rightly said, "Adam died because he sinned and in him the entire human race is already dead". But what you said after that point is completely unscriptural and is the teachings of the harlot church. You said "choose to opt out of sin". We do not get to choose - God directs our path. He chooses who will be in His church and who will be saved in the great harvest of mankind. We do not merely "opt out" of the penalty and we do not save ourselves ("save themselves"). Christ is the Savior and it is His responsibility to save us. He draws us to Himself. He gives us faith. He causes us to repent. He causes us to die to our carnal nature. He resurrects us. All we do is exist and respond to His direction. He is God and mankind is "nothing". His will rules over our will. Why do you think man's will can resist God's will? It can't!
Also, we do not have "abundant life now". Do you still sin? Of course you do. Well, Christ came to give us abundant life and that is to strengthen us spiritually so that we DON'T sin anymore. He paid the sin debt for all mankind already and now He is working on gives all mankind life more abundantly. Until we have the full measure of the Holy Spirit directing our lifes, we still sin and are not fully saved. He starts with the church who are the first fruits of the harvest. He ends with the "great ingathering" (Feast of Tabernacles). Why do you believe that the first fruits of God's harvert is all that He is going to harvest. He has a full crop of mankind in the field and He will harvest the rest when they are made ready for the harvest. Why do you believe that He is going to "burn in hell" the rest of His crop? Why do you believe that God is a failure and will not have all that pleases HIm? Why do you beleive that mankind's "will" is too much for God to overcome? Where is you faith to believe the scriptures?
You said:
This is the gospel which was preached by the apostles, received from Jesus Christ Himself, which you have altered very significantly.
Here is the Gospel the apostles preached:
2 Cor 5:18-21 and all things are of the God who has reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and given to us the ministry of that conciliation, how that God was in Christ, reconciled the world to himself, not reckoning to them their offences; and putting in us the word of that reconciliation. We are ambassadors therefore for Christ, God as it were beseeching by us, we entreat for Christ, Be reconciled to God.
Jesus Christ has reconciled (past tense) all of mankind. Jesus has taken away the sins of the world.
John 1:29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.
Christ has given mankind "life". The penalty of sin which is death has been paid for all mankind. It does not make any difference whether a person believes it or not - they are going to be resurrected back to life after they die. The do not have the power to tell Christ no.
John 10:10 The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly.
But Christ has not finished His work for mankind YET. That is why 1Tim 2:4-6 ends with "to be testified in due time". He must also stop us all from ever sinning again. Just paying the sin debt isn't enough for us to be able to have a relationship with God. We must also stop sinning. Christ is going to accomplish this part of our salvation for all mankind but every man in his own order (1Cor 15:20-25). The "church" is first and then comes the end when the feast of ingathering occurs - the final and great harvest. Why can't you understand that the church is only the "fruit fruits" of the havrest and not the full harvest? Are you so ignorant of farming that you don't know what first fruits are?
Anyway, that is what the Gospel is as defined by scripture. IT IS "GOOD NEWS" FOR ALL OF MANKIND! Your gospel is a nightmare for more than 99% of all mankind. Where is the "Good News" for them?
You said:
For you to say... shows you have not understood how either the condemnation or the salvation, both spoken of in scripture, truly work.
If any of us had to pay for our own sins, that would be the end of us.
But there is one way to eternal life, and that is to repent from sin now, and receive Jesus Christ as Saviour and Lord. Then Father will send the Holy Spirit to empower the new believer to walk in newness of life, with power over sin. 1 John 2:1, 1 John 3:3, 1 Peter 4:1, 2, Gal 5:24.
Why do you say we must repent "now"? Don't you know that Christ's love and mercy never end, not even for the wicked? The "now" part is only if we are chosen by Christ to be in His church. If you are not chosen to be in His church, there is nothing you can do about it. Most of mankind is not even called to be in His church and even if you are called, only a few from the called are actually chosen. Those not chosen will have to enter the Kingdom of Heaven through the broad gate that leads to destruction (judgment) and be harvested in the final and great harvest. Those in the final and great harvest WILL come to Christ and will be made ready in the same matter as those who came to Christ earlier. There are no free passes. All roads lead to Christ and His salvation.
You said:
Your doctrine that not only did God intend for Adam (created in His own image) to sin, but by implication calls sin 'good', is an abomination.
Rom 8:20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,
God made the creature (mankind) subject to "vanity". We are subject to vanity because we are too spiritually weak not to sin. Therefore, Adam and Eve were too spirituallly weak not to sin. Don't you think God knew this when He created them this way? Of course, HE DID! He is God and knows everything. He even gave them a carnal body and a tempter to make us sinning machines. He wants it to be that way for now. Do you think He made a mistake and things didn't work out like He wanted. Do you think God is on plan B and sent Christ to fix His mistake? No - everything God created from the beginning was "good". It was good for the purposes of making children of God.
You said:
God's acquaintance with evil Gen 3:5, 22 does not mean there is sin in God. God is utterly holy and pure.
Of course, there is NO sin or evil in God. I never said otherwise. God is holy and all knowing and all powerful and all present. He NEVER makes a mistake and He ALWAYS accomplishes all that He desires to accomplish.
You said:
Please understand this God purifies us by the fire in this life, and after death, judgment will finalise our eternal end. Heb 9:27.
God purifies us by fire in this life ONLY IF Christ has chosen you to be in His church. All others (the many called and unbelievers) are not being judged now. If they were, then the whole world would be in the process of being made righteous - which they are not. Judgment is good and is necessary in order for mankind to become children of God. God's judgment is no different for the church (burn with fire) than it is for anyone else that He judges later. His judgment produces righteousness and God does not change His ways. Or did you not know that?
You said:
As to your request for a duel of scriptures, I don't have time for that unless you are genuinely open to seeing truth which is writ plain and large throughout His word. Claiming you already know God's plan, while at the same time ignoring the most significant parts of His revelation of His heart throughout the book, means you have a lot of travelling to do to come into full agreement with God.
I spent the first 44 years of my life in the harlot church. Thanks to Christ, He healed my spiritual vision and called me out of her. There is NO chance of me going back. God desires love, forgiveness and mercy to be in our hearts. Your doctrines don't show that God has much in His.
God has revealed Himself to me and it wasn't for anything I did because there is no righteousness in me apart from Christ. He did It because of His grace and His deciding to chose to bless me. I have high confidence that I am in full agreement with God in my understanding and I know that someday I will be in full agreement with God in my walk after Christ has finished His work in me. But in the end, I will be just one of billions and billions of God's new children whom He fully loves just as much as He loves me.
You said:
You have mentioned carnal thinking several times, and there is indeed carnal thinking. One of the hallmarks of it, is its desire for self-preservation in the face of the awful truth about the inevitability of death. The carnal mind will figure out endless solutions which preserve itself, its dignity, its academic integrity, its faith in itself, its desire to have some innate goodness acknowledged which means it doesn't have to die one day, (I could go on) - but the fact of salvation is, the whole person has to accept Christ's death, or, its own. There are no other options.
Why do you keep believing that any of mankind is going to perish in death? Surely you agree that scripture says that Christ is going to resurrect the dead - all of the dead???
Also, where is your scriptural defintion on what being carnally minded is like? I know the verses that speak of the carnally minded and your comments are not from them. They are ex-bibical. We are commanded not to "think above what is written".
You said:
Once you 'get' that, you'll be flying. Reckoning yourself dead, you will begin to live in God, with power over sin. Rom 6:7 - 12. By this means, if you are faithful to abide in Christ, you escape the wrath of God, and eternal damnation. This is the only way to eternal life.
Only His chosen church will escape the wrath of God but they too will have to be destroyed. Being destroyed is what it means to "die to self" or "dying daily". All others will experience being destroyed in the Lake of Fire. It is not eternal destruction. The Greek word that is translated as "everlasting" or "forever" has been improperly translated. The root of the Greek word is "aion" meaning age. It adjective form means pertaining to a age. A "age" has a beginning and an end. It cannot ever mean everlasting or eternal. That additional definition was added to accomodate the harlot church many centuries ago. But at the time of the writing of scripture, it only meant pertaining to an age.
It saddens me you cannot see and know the truly loving God that I know. He is full of mercy and forgiveness. He loves His creation and will have His desire of changing us into children of God. My God really is God!
Joe
Dear Axehead,
All your beliefs are supported "without any scriptures" because you have none to present. You have elevated your carning reasoning to supercede the truth of scripture.
Joe
God desires and will have a people that willingly (not coercively) turn away from all that is not of Him, endure the cross, and turn to Him with their whole heart.
Our theology must start with Who God is, His character, and the recognition of how His very Being is expressed in His actions. Have you noticed how His being was expressed through His actions in the Old Testament? How about how His character was expressed in the death of His Son? Was that a waste or was the death of Jesus Christ significant to Universalists? How was the death of Jesus Christ significant to Universalists? Can you answer that question?
Universalism is fallacious because it presents its argument by ONLY focusing on God’s love and grace to man. What is deceiving about this is that Universalists have predetermined God's objective to SAVE ALL MEN. They then use this predetermined objective to justify God's character of love ignoring other aspects of His character. You have reduced God down to only one of His traits or attributes of character. You have to understand Divine love in a relational context to understand how God deals with men whom He has given freedom of choice to. You do believe in God’s relational love, don’t you? Do you believe man has been given freedom of choice regarding who they want to follow and what/who they want to love? Relational love cannot be forced or coerced and God will not force or coerce men to bow down to Him, and worship and love Him. God intends for man to FREELY CHOOSE to do that.
But your theology seems to have removed our freedom of choice given to us by God. God does desire for all men to be saved and is not willing for any man to perish but God is still Love whether all men are saved or some men are saved. Man cannot define the parameters of God's love as you are doing. God's love is not validated or proved by man's need of salvation or whether all men are saved. God's love needs no validation by men. His love is not subject to our “quality control” logic.
God will judge and determine all things in accord with Who He is not what man thinks one part of Him is. God's Love and Justice do not conflict with each other. Again, your theology must start with Who God is, His character and how He expresses Himself through His actions.
Throughout the Scriptures we see God's intolerance and rejection of ALL evil and sin, for they are not consistent with Himself. When God judges and rejects men that does not prove any failure whatsoever on God's part. He grieves over those who reject Him, "not willing that any should perish".
Grief and suffering don't indicate a failure of love, but instead it demonstrates a love that is reacting to a man's free choice of rejection.
Universalism has done a great job of deifying human reason and creating a god based on their own personal deductions and logical reasoning.
Universalism also seeks to deny the doctrine of sin, and they don't think God made man with freedom of choice. God did make man with freedom of choice and He allowed Himself to be vulnerable knowing that man could reject Him. That is also a character trait of God. That He can allow Himself to be vulnerable without determining a predefined outcome that will make Him "happy". Universalism proposes a predetermined outcome and in doing so does great damage to many well known and accepted doctrines of the Bible. The doctrine of sin becomes a victim. The doctrine of holiness is also a victim in that God now has evil in Him. Sin is minimized and called an "illusion".
God is love does not impose death on man, or sentence man to death, as a consequence of sin. God’s love allows man to suffer the consequence of his choices. Man derives death from “the one having the power of death, that is the devil” (Heb. 2:14) or man derives life from Jesus Christ. It is his choice. If God wanted automatons, then Jesus Christ died needlessly.
If all men are to be saved by God’s love then the question must be asked: “What was the purpose of the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ?” Almost, like Gal 2:21, you could say, "If all are destined to be saved, then Christ died needlessly.” Are we not robbing the death of Christ of its atoning and redemptive significance? What is all this business about restoring man to God in relationship and causing man to walk in His statutes? Universalists make the life and work of Jesus Christ irrelevant and meaningless.
Axehead
Our theology must start with Who God is, His character, and the recognition of how His very Being is expressed in His actions. Have you noticed how His being was expressed through His actions in the Old Testament? How about how His character was expressed in the death of His Son? Was that a waste or was the death of Jesus Christ significant to Universalists? How was the death of Jesus Christ significant to Universalists? Can you answer that question?
Universalism is fallacious because it presents its argument by ONLY focusing on God’s love and grace to man. What is deceiving about this is that Universalists have predetermined God's objective to SAVE ALL MEN. They then use this predetermined objective to justify God's character of love ignoring other aspects of His character. You have reduced God down to only one of His traits or attributes of character. You have to understand Divine love in a relational context to understand how God deals with men whom He has given freedom of choice to. You do believe in God’s relational love, don’t you? Do you believe man has been given freedom of choice regarding who they want to follow and what/who they want to love? Relational love cannot be forced or coerced and God will not force or coerce men to bow down to Him, and worship and love Him. God intends for man to FREELY CHOOSE to do that.
But your theology seems to have removed our freedom of choice given to us by God. God does desire for all men to be saved and is not willing for any man to perish but God is still Love whether all men are saved or some men are saved. Man cannot define the parameters of God's love as you are doing. God's love is not validated or proved by man's need of salvation or whether all men are saved. God's love needs no validation by men. His love is not subject to our “quality control” logic.
God will judge and determine all things in accord with Who He is not what man thinks one part of Him is. God's Love and Justice do not conflict with each other. Again, your theology must start with Who God is, His character and how He expresses Himself through His actions.
Throughout the Scriptures we see God's intolerance and rejection of ALL evil and sin, for they are not consistent with Himself. When God judges and rejects men that does not prove any failure whatsoever on God's part. He grieves over those who reject Him, "not willing that any should perish".
Grief and suffering don't indicate a failure of love, but instead it demonstrates a love that is reacting to a man's free choice of rejection.
Universalism has done a great job of deifying human reason and creating a god based on their own personal deductions and logical reasoning.
Universalism also seeks to deny the doctrine of sin, and they don't think God made man with freedom of choice. God did make man with freedom of choice and He allowed Himself to be vulnerable knowing that man could reject Him. That is also a character trait of God. That He can allow Himself to be vulnerable without determining a predefined outcome that will make Him "happy". Universalism proposes a predetermined outcome and in doing so does great damage to many well known and accepted doctrines of the Bible. The doctrine of sin becomes a victim. The doctrine of holiness is also a victim in that God now has evil in Him. Sin is minimized and called an "illusion".
God is love does not impose death on man, or sentence man to death, as a consequence of sin. God’s love allows man to suffer the consequence of his choices. Man derives death from “the one having the power of death, that is the devil” (Heb. 2:14) or man derives life from Jesus Christ. It is his choice. If God wanted automatons, then Jesus Christ died needlessly.
If all men are to be saved by God’s love then the question must be asked: “What was the purpose of the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ?” Almost, like Gal 2:21, you could say, "If all are destined to be saved, then Christ died needlessly.” Are we not robbing the death of Christ of its atoning and redemptive significance? What is all this business about restoring man to God in relationship and causing man to walk in His statutes? Universalists make the life and work of Jesus Christ irrelevant and meaningless.
Axehead
aspen
“"The harvest is plentiful but the workers are few
Trusting God means that you have faith that His love will redeem us; His sanctification will restore us as perfect lovers of God and each other.
I am optimistic about the idea of universalism, but I also acknowledge the reality of sin. I do not think the two ideas are exclusive. Many universalists believe that Jesus died for our sins and redeemed all of humanity, rather than only dying for a small amount of followers.
Dear Justaname,
You said:
27 And inasmuch as it is appointed for men to die once and after this comes judgement
When the wicked stand before God in all His glory they will have no choice but to say "Jesus is Lord". It will be proven to them, yet God does not seek those who demand signs and wonders but blessed is the one who has not seen and believes. Never does it say in the Bible that the unbeliever will be honored with the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.
The wicked do not "stand" before God. Only the righteous stand.
Why do you believe that suddenly "the wicked have no choice but to say "Jesus is Lord"? You teach that we all have a choice. Surely, some of the wicked from out of their supposed free "will", will still reject Christ? Why the change in your doctrine?
You know, I once heard John Hagee say that when the wicked come to judgment that if they don't say that Jesus is Lord, then God is going to break their legs and force them to kneel and confess that Jesus is Lord. What blasphamy! And that confession is supposed to be to the "glory of the Father"! The carnal mind of man never ceases to amaze me.
At judgment, the wicked will continue to be wicked and will not say that Jesus is Lord. Scripture plainly says that only those who are filled with the Holy Spirit can truthfully confess that Jesus is Lord. But AFTER their judgment is complete and they have come to Christ, then and ONLY THEN, will they be able to say that Jesus is Lord.
You said:
Reconciliation will come by those redeemed and condemned.
Scripture says that "reconcilition" will be accomplished by Christ for all mankind.
Acts 3:20-21 And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you: Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.
Here Luke is speaking of the Day of the Lord.
This verse is speaking of the end of the final age when all things have been reconciled back to God and then Jesus offers up the Kingdom to the Father and God will be all in all.
You said:
1 Tim 4:10-11 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe. These things command and teach.
Yes Jesus is the Savior of the world, but that salvation is only effectual for those who believe. Only those who are "in Christ" are made alive, only those who believe are "in Christ."
You agree that Jesus is the Savior of the world. Why don't you then believe that He will save the world??? Scripture clearly teaches that eventually all mankind will be drawn to Christ and be saved. Why do you place time limits on God??? Just where in scripture does it say that God's love and mercy runs outof time for most of mankind? Don't you know that one of the fruits of the Spirit (God's Spirit) is patience? God is patient and not willing that any should perish. You are again confusing being in the church and being in the Kingdom of Heaven. The church comes first but is not the full harvest.
Joe
Dear Axehead,
Again you pour out your conjecture and have no scriptures which support it. Why can't you support your statements with scripture? Your beliefs are coming from what your carnal reasoning wants you to believe about God. But the carnal mind cannot know God. To know God, look to scripture and believe it. Of course, that is not possible without the Holy Spirit.
Joe
You said:
27 And inasmuch as it is appointed for men to die once and after this comes judgement
When the wicked stand before God in all His glory they will have no choice but to say "Jesus is Lord". It will be proven to them, yet God does not seek those who demand signs and wonders but blessed is the one who has not seen and believes. Never does it say in the Bible that the unbeliever will be honored with the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.
The wicked do not "stand" before God. Only the righteous stand.
Why do you believe that suddenly "the wicked have no choice but to say "Jesus is Lord"? You teach that we all have a choice. Surely, some of the wicked from out of their supposed free "will", will still reject Christ? Why the change in your doctrine?
You know, I once heard John Hagee say that when the wicked come to judgment that if they don't say that Jesus is Lord, then God is going to break their legs and force them to kneel and confess that Jesus is Lord. What blasphamy! And that confession is supposed to be to the "glory of the Father"! The carnal mind of man never ceases to amaze me.
At judgment, the wicked will continue to be wicked and will not say that Jesus is Lord. Scripture plainly says that only those who are filled with the Holy Spirit can truthfully confess that Jesus is Lord. But AFTER their judgment is complete and they have come to Christ, then and ONLY THEN, will they be able to say that Jesus is Lord.
You said:
Reconciliation will come by those redeemed and condemned.
Scripture says that "reconcilition" will be accomplished by Christ for all mankind.
Acts 3:20-21 And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you: Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.
Here Luke is speaking of the Day of the Lord.
This verse is speaking of the end of the final age when all things have been reconciled back to God and then Jesus offers up the Kingdom to the Father and God will be all in all.
You said:
1 Tim 4:10-11 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe. These things command and teach.
Yes Jesus is the Savior of the world, but that salvation is only effectual for those who believe. Only those who are "in Christ" are made alive, only those who believe are "in Christ."
You agree that Jesus is the Savior of the world. Why don't you then believe that He will save the world??? Scripture clearly teaches that eventually all mankind will be drawn to Christ and be saved. Why do you place time limits on God??? Just where in scripture does it say that God's love and mercy runs outof time for most of mankind? Don't you know that one of the fruits of the Spirit (God's Spirit) is patience? God is patient and not willing that any should perish. You are again confusing being in the church and being in the Kingdom of Heaven. The church comes first but is not the full harvest.
Joe
Dear Axehead,
Again you pour out your conjecture and have no scriptures which support it. Why can't you support your statements with scripture? Your beliefs are coming from what your carnal reasoning wants you to believe about God. But the carnal mind cannot know God. To know God, look to scripture and believe it. Of course, that is not possible without the Holy Spirit.
Joe
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