So then is that the verse in Daniel that is being used for the sign of the Son of man coming to earth or is there another verse in Daniel that points to Jesus coming back to earth with clouds?
What is the "SIGN" of the Son of Man - Poll
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Yes Jesus was coming on the clouds of heaven not to earth so its not the sign of Matthew 24.
This was also Jesus claiming to be God and the final act the brought His death.
Matthew 26
62 Then the high priest stood up and said to Jesus, “Are you not going to answer? What is this testimony that these men are bringing against you?” 63 But Jesus remained silent.
The high priest said to him, “I charge you under oath by the living God: Tell us if you are the Messiah, the Son of God.”
64 “You have said so,” Jesus replied. “But I say to all of you: From now on you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven.”[e]
65 Then the high priest tore his clothes and said, “He has spoken blasphemy! Why do we need any more witnesses? Look, now you have heard the blasphemy. 66 What do you think?”
“He is worthy of death,” they answered.
Jesus was claiming to be the one from Daniel 7:13.
What the Jews also didn't understand here was that the Messiah was also God. Jesus wasn't killed for claiming to be the Messiah Jesus was killed for claiming to be God.
Daniel doesn't show Jesus coming to the earth only going to heaven.
quietthinker
Well-Known Member
The quoted verse appears to me as Daniel seeing a seperate event to the second coming.....and perhaps I was a bit hasty in agreeing it was a description of the second coming. All that said, the language is similar to what the angels told the disciples at Jesus ascension ie, that Jesus would return in a similar fashion as they saw him go, namely with clouds.
When I read this text in Daniel I see both even though what I see is strictly not accurate :)
In Matthew 24:30 Jesus says this (referring to his return)
'Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven. And then all the peoples of the earth will mourn when they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory'.
I believe that Daniel 7:13 happened when Jesus ascended back up to heaven that's why Jesus stated "from now on" in Matthew 26:64
Ok, fair enough.
What are your thoughts on Luke 17:30-31 where it says the Son of man is revealed on the same day that they should flee? Do you think this revealing could be the sign of the Son of man in Matthew 24:30?
Your 'sign' Poll choices should have included one that said it is literal and already of the past, using symbolic language. Then I would have checked that choice.
quietthinker
Well-Known Member
I think Jesus' explanations in using past events is to illustrate the unexpectedness of what will unfold for those who do not take his return seriously or are flippant about the instructions to 'stay awake'
One of the dangers in interpretation is to make what is intended as a generality, walk on all fours so to speak, and major on minors.
Discernment here is critical....which applies to your quoted Luke 17:30-31
Jesus, the Son Man responded to his disciples with dual meanings; it had to be this way for completeness. I believe they understood one meaning only. And it's ironic that the modern futurist since the 16th-17th century on only sees the other meaning and view.
I see both meanings in scripture, as the spirit drives me to this obvious conclusion.
My overall assessment is base on stakes, still a sturdy structure.
1. An Amillennialistic view. 2. A partial preterist view and 3., a symbolic language view. All important as Jesus used OT writers' symbolic language for a reason.
1. The 1st meaning for the disciples and the generation of Christ abt. 30 - 70 AD abt 40 years
2. The 2nd meaning, for today's and future interested parties...
I can elaborate more if someone might be interested.
I see both meanings in scripture, as the spirit drives me to this obvious conclusion.
My overall assessment is base on stakes, still a sturdy structure.
1. An Amillennialistic view. 2. A partial preterist view and 3., a symbolic language view. All important as Jesus used OT writers' symbolic language for a reason.
1. The 1st meaning for the disciples and the generation of Christ abt. 30 - 70 AD abt 40 years
2. The 2nd meaning, for today's and future interested parties...
I can elaborate more if someone might be interested.
Alright, I know sometimes not everything seems to fit and we have to step back and not focus on the minor details.
My thoughts were that the Son of man is revealed to the Jews who were blind in part until the fullness of the Gentiles comes in. I think the fullness of the Gentiles came in when they fulfilled all that what was prophesied for them, meaning the last thing the Gentiles had to fulfill in the book of Daniel was to sack Jerusalem.
So when Jerusalem got surrounded by armies, the Jews were no longer blind in part and they either made the choice to flee or not. Those who stayed in Jerusalem were then aware that it was the wrath of the Lamb as seen in Revelation 6:16.
Ok back to the dual meanings:
(Mat 24:29) But immediately after the tribulation of those days, the sun shall be darkened and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken.
(Mat 24:30) And then the sign of the Son of Man shall appear in heaven.Then all the tribes of the earth shall mourn, and they shall see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
(Mat 24:31) And he shall send forth his angels with a great sound of a trumpet and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
The 1st meaning is for the end of last previous age, that ended about 70 AD..in the main
The 2nd meaning is for the current age we live in today and into tomorrow.....when the very last days occur
Now to decode and apply the symbolic language...
to be continued below...........
In local and extended context...that each culture would understand....
for the 1st meaning of the old past age...
Verse 29....IMMEDIATELY after the tribulation.....
The onset of the tribulation ending with the destruction and ruin of Judea, and Jerusalem and its Temple in particular, by the Roman heathen armies.
...the Sun shall be darkened....the Judahite/ Jew religious top leadership and organization (the major light) is gone, for good!
...the moon shall not give off her light...the Judahite/Jew religious priestly system (the minor light) shall disappear ..is gone. for good!
...the stars shall fall from heaven.....the messengers or prophets of/for national Israel, the tribes from the Hebrews, shall be all gone...for good!
The entire system is deemed defunct, rescinded, obsolete, gone for good as a result of this destructive tribulation...
....the powers of the heavens shaken......Christ has set up shop as King of God's Kingdom with power and glory.
next verse 30.....
do the rest in the next 24 hours....hitting the sack
for the 1st meaning of the old past age...
Verse 29....IMMEDIATELY after the tribulation.....
The onset of the tribulation ending with the destruction and ruin of Judea, and Jerusalem and its Temple in particular, by the Roman heathen armies.
...the Sun shall be darkened....the Judahite/ Jew religious top leadership and organization (the major light) is gone, for good!
...the moon shall not give off her light...the Judahite/Jew religious priestly system (the minor light) shall disappear ..is gone. for good!
...the stars shall fall from heaven.....the messengers or prophets of/for national Israel, the tribes from the Hebrews, shall be all gone...for good!
The entire system is deemed defunct, rescinded, obsolete, gone for good as a result of this destructive tribulation...
....the powers of the heavens shaken......Christ has set up shop as King of God's Kingdom with power and glory.
next verse 30.....
do the rest in the next 24 hours....hitting the sack
ewq1938
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A sign can be something seen that happens before a certain event or it can be the actual event itself.
Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
Compare Matthew with the same discourse found in Mark:
Mar 13:24 But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,
Mar 13:25 And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.
Mar 13:26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.
Mar 13:27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.
I think it's clear the "sign" of Christ's coming is actually seeing him arrive. Note that this sign appears AFTER the sun and moon go dark so that is not the sign as the sign in Matthew appears after those events.
Luke is the same:
Luk 21:25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;
Luk 21:26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.
Luk 21:27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
Compare Matthew with the same discourse found in Mark:
Mar 13:24 But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,
Mar 13:25 And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.
Mar 13:26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.
Mar 13:27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.
I think it's clear the "sign" of Christ's coming is actually seeing him arrive. Note that this sign appears AFTER the sun and moon go dark so that is not the sign as the sign in Matthew appears after those events.
Luke is the same:
Luk 21:25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;
Luk 21:26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.
Luk 21:27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
quietthinker
Well-Known Member
Randy Kluth
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Some do see it that way. I don't because it is not interpreted as such in the NT Scriptures. Everywhere in the NT, the Son of Man is viewed as coming from heaven to establish his Kingdom on earth. And if you look back at Dan 7, that is precisely why the Son of Man appeared before a court in heaven, to get his marching orders to establish his Kingdom upon the earth.
What we have are two statements that exist separately and yet without contradiction.
1) Christ descends from heaven, meaning that he comes to the earth, establishing God's Kingdom here.
2) Christ appears before a heavenly court.
These two things are designed to show that Christ is authorized from heaven to establish God's Kingdom on the earth.
Dan 7.13 “In my vision at night I looked, and there before me was one like a son of man, coming with the clouds of heaven. He approached the Ancient of Days and was led into his presence. 14 He was given authority, glory and sovereign power; all nations and peoples of every language worshiped him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion that will not pass away, and his kingdom is one that will never be destroyed."
So I read the part about Christ's appearance before the court as parenthetical. The main act is Christ's descent from heaven. Parenthetically, it is explained that he comes with divine authorization, which originates from heaven.
quietthinker
Well-Known Member
or one could say the presenting of the Son to the Father was his inauguration after his stint on Earth. After the inhabitants of God's Multiverse witnessed for themselves the heretofore unrevealed heart of God.....and thus nullifying all of Lucifer's misrepresentations......and what were those misrepresentations? Was it not that God is basically selfish? That everything he wanted he made?.....and nobody, not even God could prove otherwise.
It was not until the incarnation; it was not until men and demons did their darnedest to crush him so that he would give up and say, that's it, I've had enough of you guy's.' He was taunted 'if he is the Son of God let him come down from the cross'.....' he saved others, himself he cannot save'. He was pushed and pushed and pushed by wicked hosts to preserve himself but it never happened. He loved to the death. He would rather die than use force, authority or ability, (as men and devils do) and so reveal the Heart of God. (his Character, his Name)
TribulationSigns
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Mat 24:29-31
(29) Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Not an astronomical event. It is the judgment of the church.
(30) And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
After the judgment of the church is complete, at the Last Trump, Jesus Christ will appear in the air. The clouds signify glory, not actual clouds. (31) And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
And at the same time, Christ will send messengers to gather Elect from Earth to meet with Him in the Air.Similar threads
