What is the purpose of infant baptism?

[Jude Thaddeus]

1 Cor. 3:9 – God invites us to participate in Christ’s work because we are God’s “fellow workers” and one family in the body of Christ. God wants His children to participate. The phrase used to describe “fellow workers” is “sunergoi,” which literally means synergists, or cooperators with God in salvific matters. Does God need fellow workers? Of course not, but this shows how much He, as Father, loves His children. God wants us to work with Him.

Mark 16:20 – this is another example of how the Lord “worked with them” (“sunergountos”). God cooperates with us. Out of His eternal love, He invites our participation.

Rom. 8:28 – God “works for good with” (the Greek is “sunergei eis agathon”) those who love Him. We work as subordinate mediators.

2 Cor. 6:1 – “working together” (the Greek is “sunergountes”) with him, don’t accept His grace in vain. God allows us to participate in His work, not because He needs our help, but because He loves us and wants to exalt us in His Son. It is like the father who lets his child join him in carrying the groceries in the house. The father does not need help, but he invites the child to assist to raise up the child in dignity and love.

Heb. 12:1 – the “cloud of witnesses” (nephos marturon) that we are surrounded by is a great amphitheatre of witnesses to the earthly race, and they actively participate and cheer us (the runners) on, in our race to salvation.

1 Peter 2:5 – we are a holy priesthood, instructed to offer spiritual sacrifices to God. We are therefore subordinate priests to the Head Priest, but we are still priests who participate in Christ’s work of redemption.

Rev. 1:6, 5:10 – Jesus made us a kingdom of priests for God. Priests intercede through Christ on behalf of God’s people.

James 5:16; Proverbs 15:8, 29 – the prayers of the righteous (the saints) have powerful effects. This is why we ask for their prayers. How much more powerful are the saints’ prayers in heaven, in whom righteousness has been perfected.

 

[Taken]

How does this non-reply justify your denial of subordinate mediation? Did I not post enough detail explaining it??? "sole mediator" is not a slogan!

Does God not have the power to allow our participtation/intercession?

Jesus IS the Savior…
Christ Jesus IS Salvation…

You want to interject yourself to participate encouraging, leading another “TO” the Savior…”TO” Salvation?

Are you aware LIVING MEN Communicate by opening their mouth and speaking one to another…Gods word?

Well, technically, we don't pray TO saints, we ask them to pray for us (the brethren).

Certainly A bodily ALIVE man WHO IS SAVED and QUICKENED…(ie a saint) can pray for other ALIVE “saints”….and even ASK them to pray WITH of FOR them.

KEY…these “saints” ARE bodily ALIVE…

Pray “TO” (ask) Bodily DEAD men to PRAY “FOR” you… WHY?
WHY do you think they can HEAR YOU?
DO “THEY” talk back to you?
WHY do you think they are ASSIGNED to Hear your prayers?
DID God LIE?
Was God KIDDING went He appointed Jesus to serve Him, to be His intercessor?


Where is any Scripture telling you to PRAY to anyone other than the Lord God?

Asking all the above is no different than asking your mother to pray for you. It IS scripturally taught. You're stuck in 16th century politics, not the truth of scripture.

Is it biblical to pray for an unsaved soul or isn't it? Obviously it is. To do so makes one a subordinate mediator/intercessor, that you deny. You're not making sense.

It is obvious you do NOT comprehend…
Living men communicate to other bodily Living men.
Communication with the Lord God is a mans spirit to the Lord Gods Spirit.
Communication between a LIVING bodily man and a DEAD bodily man…is utter nonsense.

The rich man in Luke16 prayed to Abraham who is not God. Jesus is teaching a falsehood, according to you.

Obviously you DO NOT comprehend…what PRAY means IN Context.

You can ask a LIVING man a verbal question, write him a question/…from your MINDS thoughts.

PRAYING in regard to the Lord God…IS the EXPRESS communication means between a mans spirit and the Lord Gods Spirit…to ASK questions…to PRAISE Him…TO WORSHIP Him…TO THANK Him….
By your own attempt to equate PRAYER to God, being the SAME as Prayer to a man….
Means to you they are the SAME thing…
Means you ask, praise, worship thank men, in your course of “praying” to men…

Pfff. Not a scriptural teaching…

 

[BreadOfLife]

No, they sai Jesus' name was spoken, not assumed.

You think Jesus name is assumed without speaking it.

Silly.

WRONG.
EVERY example says "in the name of".

Peter obeyed His Master's command in Matt. 28:19 . . .

 

[BreadOfLife]

I see, the Roman Catholic Church says in the name of assumption. Fascinating.

Your sentence doesn't even make sense.

 

[BreadOfLife]

John 14:
[6] Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

How does intercession from others violate this verse, Einstein?

2 Thess.. 3:1
Finally, brothers, pray for us, that the word of the Lord may speed ahead and be honored, as happened among you,

1 Tim. 2:1
First of all, then, I urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all people

Your understanding of the Word of God is appalling . . .

 

[BreadOfLife]

Of course you do,,, Years ago, when I simply responded to your posts…”I disagree”…
Boo hoo, you complained!

You get the blue ribbon, for the most intolerable obnoxious person on this forum, who happens to be Catholic…Too bad for you, your own behavior bounces back on you.

I would suppose the truth does present a sting for you.

Wrong.

If I complained about everyone who disagrees with Catholic teaching on this forum – I’d have to respond to 95% of the posts.
I ONLY respond to those who misrepresent what Catholics believe and teach.

If I’ve had to put you in your place – it’s because you asked for it . . .

 

[Truther]

WRONG.
EVERY example says "in the name of".

Peter obeyed His Master's command in Matt. 28:19 . . .

….yes, by commanding them all to be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of their sins.

Get that, son?

 

[Truther]

Your sentence doesn't even make sense.

Clarification.
The Roman Catholic says “I baptize you in the name of… You know… I assume you know… Well, you’ll figure it out someday. Just as long as I don’t have to say the name Jesus because it gives me the heebie-jeebies”.

 

[Taken]

How does intercession from others violate this verse, Einstein?

2 Thess.. 3:1
Finally, brothers, pray for us, that the word of the Lord may speed ahead and be honored, as happened among you,

1 Tim. 2:1
First of all, then, I urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all people

Your understanding of the Word of God is appalling . . .

The stubborn will Hear but not Understand…

You are blinded by your stubbornness..

 

[Taken]

Wrong.

If I complained about everyone who disagrees with Catholic teaching on this forum – I’d have to respond to 95% of the posts.
I ONLY respond to those who misrepresent what Catholics believe and teach.

If I’ve had to put you in your place – it’s because you asked for it . . .

LOL…you are so small.

 

[Jude Thaddeus]

Jesus IS the Savior…
Christ Jesus IS Salvation…

You want to interject yourself to participate encouraging, leading another “TO” the Savior…”TO” Salvation?

Are you aware LIVING MEN Communicate by opening their mouth and speaking one to another…Gods word?



Certainly A bodily ALIVE man WHO IS SAVED and QUICKENED…(ie a saint) can pray for other ALIVE “saints”….and even ASK them to pray WITH of FOR them.

KEY…these “saints” ARE bodily ALIVE…

Pray “TO” (ask) Bodily DEAD men to PRAY “FOR” you… WHY?
WHY do you think they can HEAR YOU?
DO “THEY” talk back to you?
WHY do you think they are ASSIGNED to Hear your prayers?
DID God LIE?
Was God KIDDING went He appointed Jesus to serve Him, to be His intercessor?


Where is any Scripture telling you to PRAY to anyone other than the Lord God?



It is obvious you do NOT comprehend…
Living men communicate to other bodily Living men.
Communication with the Lord God is a mans spirit to the Lord Gods Spirit.
Communication between a LIVING bodily man and a DEAD bodily man…is utter nonsense.



Obviously you DO NOT comprehend…what PRAY means IN Context.

You can ask a LIVING man a verbal question, write him a question/…from your MINDS thoughts.

PRAYING in regard to the Lord God…IS the EXPRESS communication means between a mans spirit and the Lord Gods Spirit…to ASK questions…to PRAISE Him…TO WORSHIP Him…TO THANK Him….
By your own attempt to equate PRAYER to God, being the SAME as Prayer to a man….
Means to you they are the SAME thing…
Means you ask, praise, worship thank men, in your course of “praying” to men…

Pfff. Not a scriptural teaching…

If you refuse to answer my questions, why should I answer yours? I already gave an example of someone (the rich man) in Luke 16, who is dead, praying to Abraham (who is not God) and you ran from it. There are other examples in scripture, but you will run from them too, and post another rant supporting a man made tradition that started 500 years ago.

A God that does not permit participation is not the God of the Bible. I'll not run in your circles because your replies evade everything I post.

Does God not have the power to allow our participtation/intercession? No answer from you.

How does this non-reply justify your denial of subordinate mediation? Did I not post enough detail explaining it??? Again, no answer.

You keep repeating the same false philosophies of the reformers who denied all human mediation, the ones you don't follow.
Then you blame BofL for being stubborn.

You don't answer my questions because you don't have one, just repeat, repeat, repeat the same reformist rhetoric that's been refuted a million times.

 

[Taken]

II already gave an example of someone (the rich man) in Luke 16, who is dead, praying to Abraham (who is not God) and you ran from it.

Abraham / rich man…Their Body’s were DEAD.
Living souls depart out of Dead body’s.
Two departed living souls…can communicate.

Was the dead rich man asking Abraham a question…yes…so?
Was the dead rich man praising Abraham? No…
Worshiping Abraham? No.
Thanking Abraham? No.

You think every time you ask someone a question you are “Spiritually PRAYING” to them?

 

[Taken]

If you refuse to answer my questions, why should I answer yours? I already gave an example of someone (the rich man) in Luke 16, who is dead, praying to Abraham (who is not God) and you ran from it. There are other examples in scripture, but you will run from them too, and post another rant supporting a man made tradition that started 500 years ago.
A God that does not allow participation is not the God of the Bible. I'll not run in your circles because your replies evade everything I post.

Does God not have the power to allow our participtation/intercession? No answer from you.

How does this non-reply justify your denial of subordinate mediation? Did I not post enough detail explaining it??? Again, no answer.

It is obviously beyond your capabilities to comprehend the difference between two living men conversing, two departed souls conversing and a mans spirit conversing with the Lord God.

Your mindful logic regarding a Spiritual Topic is Very Sad and just another up-tic regarding questionable teaching of your Catholic Church.

 

[Jude Thaddeus]

Your mindful logic regarding a Spiritual Topic is Very Sad and just another up-tic regarding questionable teaching of your Catholic Church.

Your mindful logic regarding a Spiritual Topic is Very Sad and just another up-tic regarding questionable teachings of late coming reformers who denied all human mediation/intercession, contrary to the Bible.

Revelation 5:8 (RSV) And when he had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each holding a harp, and with golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints;

Revelation 6:9-10 When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the witness they had borne; they cried out with a loud voice, ‘O Sovereign Lord, holy and true, how long before thou wilt judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell upon the earth?’

Revelation 8:3-4 And another angel came and stood at the altar with a golden censer; and he was given much incense to mingle with the prayers of all the saints upon the golden altar before the throne; and the smoke of the incense rose with the prayers of the saints from the hand of the angel before God.

Matthew 17:1-3 And after six days Jesus took with him Peter and James and John his brother, and led them up a high mountain apart. And he was transfigured before them, and his face shone like the sun, and his garments became white as light. And behold, there appeared to them Moses and Elijah, talking with him.

Matthew 27:52-53 the tombs also were opened, and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised, and coming out of the tombs after his resurrection they went into the holy city and appeared to many.

Catholics believe that saints and angels in heaven can pray for us on earth and can hear our intercessory requests, just as people on earth can do; in fact, being so near to God’s presence in heaven, their prayers are more powerful than ours on earth. But most Evangelical Protestants today would deny the saints’ intercessory power – and thus claim that any attempt to petition them would be vain at best and idolatrous at worst – as placing superfluous additional mediators between God and mankind.

There is, again, some agreement with the Catholic position among the founders of Protestantism. Martin Luther, in his Smalcald Articles of 1537, acknowledged that saints in heaven “perhaps” pray for those on earth, although he denies that they can be invoked or asked to offer prayer:

Although angels in heaven pray for us (as Christ himself also does), and although saints on earth, and perhaps also in heaven, do likewise, it does not follow that we should invoke angels and saints (Part II, Article II, in Tappert, 297).

John Calvin takes a similar view:

They again object, Are those, then, to be deprived of every pious wish, who, during the whole course of their lives, breathed nothing but piety and mercy? . . . [T]here cannot be a doubt that their charity is confined to the communion of Christ’s body, and extends no farther than is compatible with the nature of that communion. But though I grant that in this way they pray for us, they do not, however, lose their quiescence so as to be distracted with earthly cares: far less are they, therefore, to be invoked by us (Institutes, III, 20, 24; emphasis added).

But Calvin continues in the same section, speaking much more like present-day Protestants:

But all such reasons are inapplicable to the dead, with whom the Lord, in withdrawing them from our society, has left us no means of intercourse (Eccles. 9:5, 6), and to whom, so far as we can conjecture, he has left no means of intercourse with us.

Biblical evidence to the contrary was discussed in the preceding section. As for the dead being “withdrawn” from earthly concerns, I would ask Calvin if he were here today: “Why, then, are there so many instances of the dead in Christ having contact with the living, with the full consent of God?”

Some examples of this are Moses and Elijah appearing with Jesus at the Transfiguration (Matt. 17:1-3), the “two witnesses” of Revelation 11:3, whom many commentators believe to be Moses and Elijah also; Samuel’s appearance to Saul, prophesying his impending death (1 Sam. 28:12, 14-15; commentators are almost unanimous in asserting that this was actually Samuel); and the many saints who rose from the dead and appeared to many in Jerusalem after Jesus’ death (Matt. 27:52-53).

Calvin contradicts himself, however, shortly after he granted that saints in heaven pray for us:

[T]he dead, of whom we nowhere read that they were commanded to pray for us. The Scripture often exhorts us to offer up mutual prayers; but says not one syllable concerning the dead . . . While the Scripture abounds in various forms of prayer, we find no example of this intercession (Institutes, III, 20, 27; emphasis added).

Elsewhere, he says flatly:

Of purgatory, the intercession of saints . . . not one syllable can be found in Scripture (Institutes, IV, 9, 14).

It is seldom wise to make such sweeping negative statements, because just one counterexample can make them look rather foolish. The counterproof to Calvin’s statement lies in the three passages from Revelation cited in this section. Calvin attempts another sort of disproof by claiming that to say the saints intercede for us is to confuse men and angels on the order of being:

We frequently read (they say) of the prayers of angels, and not only so, but the prayers of believers are said to be carried into the presence of God by their hands . . . How preposterously they confound departed saints with angels is sufficiently apparent from the many different offices by which Scripture distinguishes the one from the other (Institutes, III, 20, 23).

This is frivolous logic. All that has to be shown as a commonality is the capacity to intercede. Dead saints do not have to have all the characteristics of angels to do that. Calvin’s reasoning is as absurd as the following analogy:

1. A great intellect like Einstein’s abilities include the knowledge that 2 + 2 = 4.
2. A child of six also knows that 2 + 2 = 4. But in order for a child to know that, he must have all of Einstein’s knowledge.
3. Therefore, the child cannot know that 2 + 2 = 4 because he doesn’t have all of Einstein’s knowledge.

The false premise obviously lies in proposition number three. Likewise, Calvin’s false premise is his implied assumption that saints would need to be like angels in all respects in order to intercede. Apart from the faulty reasoning, Scripture clearly contradicts the assertion, anyway, for Revelation 8:3-4 describes an angel presenting the prayers of the saints to God, and Revelation 5:8 attributes to human beings the same function.

continued...

 

[Jude Thaddeus]

How does Calvin interpret these passages? It’s difficult to determine, because he did not comment on them in the Institutes (except for one veiled, ambiguous reference above), and did not write a commentary on Revelation. So we will have to examine how other Protestants deal with this fascinating biblical data. Methodists Adam Clarke and John Wesley in their commentaries simply make the prayers presented in 5:8 figurative. Clarke makes a rather curious assertion concerning Revelation 8:3-4:

"It is not said that the angel presents these prayers. He presents the incense, and the prayers ascend with it."

But the incense is the prayers of the saints in Revelation 5:8, making Clarke’s contention implausible. Jamieson, Fausset, and Brown do some eisegesis of their own in commenting on 8:3-4 (capitalization in original):

"How precisely their ministry, in perfuming the prayers of the saints and offering them on the altar of incense, is exercised, we know not, but we do know they are not to be prayed TO . . . It is not the saints who give the angel the incense; nor are their prayers identified with the incense; nor do they offer their prayers to him. Christ alone is the Mediator through whom, and to whom, prayer is to be offered."​

How, indeed, do we know the angels are not asked to intercede? For it stands to reason that they would be offering the prayers of the saints only if they were asked to – otherwise those prayers would not be, in a sense, theirs to offer.
Taken flatly denies this.

Lastly, the fact that Christ is mediator is not questioned by anyone. Asking a saint in heaven to pray for us no more interferes with the unique mediation of Christ than does asking a person on earth to pray for us. We always pray in Christ, through His power, and to Him, whether it is directly to Him, or by means of another person or angel, in heaven or on earth.
This is too much for Taken to comprehend.

The (false) dichotomy between Christ’s mediation and human or angelic mediation need not be drawn at all; it arises only because of the Protestant’s needless alarmism at God’s making use of creatures to fulfill his purposes. Jamieson, Fausset, and Brown’s comment on Revelation 5:8 exhibits even more of a sort of “fortress mentality”:

This gives not the least sanction to Rome’s dogma of our praying to saints. Though they be employed by God in some way unknown to us to present our prayers (nothing is said of their interceding for us), yet we are told to pray only to Him (Rev. 19:10; 22:8, 9).

We are not told in Scripture that we cannot ask someone in heaven to pray for us. Saints in heaven are more alive and aware and far more holy than we are. They watch us (Heb. 12:1). They are aware of earthly happenings (Rev. 6:9-10). They can certainly be given extraordinary capacities for knowledge by God; there is nothing implausible or intrinsically impossible or unbiblical in that notion at all.

St. Paul states about the afterlife in heaven:

1 Corinthians 13:12 For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall understand fully, even as I have been fully understood.

Therefore, they can pray for us and we can ask for their prayers. We know that they can come back to earth (from the four examples given earlier). Are we to believe that when such saints come to earth they can pray, but immediately upon returning to heaven they cannot once again? And if they can present our prayers, why is it so inconceivable that they could intercede for us?

Albert Barnes in his comment on both Revelation 5:8 and 8:3 draws some hairsplitting distinctions that would make the most skillful lawyer envious:

Abraham / rich man…Their Body’s were DEAD.
Living souls depart out of Dead body’s.
Two departed living souls…can communicate.

So the rich man is not seeking Abraham's intercession? Obviously, being dead does not disqualify a person from interceding. And neither does being alive on earth.

Was the dead rich man asking Abraham a question…yes…so?
Was the dead rich man praising Abraham? No…
Worshiping Abraham? No.
Thanking Abraham? No.

Asking Abraham for help for his errant brothers on earth, yes, that you deny. Such prayers only counts if a person is not dead? That's not in the Bible, as I have shown. .

You think every time you ask someone a question you are “Spiritually PRAYING” to them?

Another headless chicken comment. I ask you questions and you instantly become deaf
.
How does Calvin interpret these passages? It’s difficult to determine, because he did not comment on them in the Institutes (except for one veiled, ambiguous reference above), and did not write a commentary on Revelation. So we will have to examine how other Protestants deal with this fascinating biblical data. Methodists Adam Clarke and John Wesley in their commentaries simply make the prayers presented in 5:8 figurative. Clarke makes a rather curious assertion concerning Revelation 8:3-4:

"It is not said that the angel presents these prayers. He presents the incense, and the prayers ascend with it."

But the incense is the prayers of the saints in Revelation 5:8, making Clarke’s contention implausible. Jamieson, Fausset, and Brown do some eisegesis of their own in commenting on 8:3-4 (capitalization in original):

How precisely their ministry, in perfuming the prayers of the saints and offering them on the altar of incense, is exercised, we know not, but we do know they are not to be prayed TO . . . It is not the saints who give the angel the incense; nor are their prayers identified with the incense; nor do they offer their prayers to him. Christ alone is the Mediator through whom, and to whom, prayer is to be offered.​

How, indeed, do we know the angels are not asked to intercede? For it stands to reason that they would be offering the prayers of the saints only if they were asked to – otherwise those prayers would not be, in a sense, theirs to offer.
Taken flatly denies this.

Lastly, the fact that Christ is mediator is not questioned by anyone. Asking a saint in heaven to pray for us no more interferes with the unique mediation of Christ than does asking a person on earth to pray for us. We always pray in Christ, through His power, and to Him, whether it is directly to Him, or by means of another person or angel, in heaven or on earth.

This gives not the least sanction to Rome’s dogma of our praying to saints. Though they be employed by God in some way unknown to us to present our prayers (nothing is said of their interceding for us), yet we are told to pray only to Him (Rev. 19:10; 22:8, 9).

We are not told in Scripture that we cannot ask someone in heaven to pray for us. Saints in heaven are more alive and aware and far more holy than we are. They watch us (Heb. 12:1). They are aware of earthly happenings (Rev. 6:9-10). They can certainly be given extraordinary capacities for knowledge by God; there is nothing implausible or intrinsically impossible or unbiblical in that notion at all.

St. Paul states about the afterlife in heaven:

1 Corinthians 13:12 For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall understand fully, even as I have been fully understood.

Therefore, they can pray for us and we can ask for their prayers. We know that they can come back to earth (from the four examples given earlier). Are we to believe that when such saints come to earth they can pray, but immediately upon returning to heaven they cannot once again? And if they can present our prayers, why is it so inconceivable that they could intercede for us?

Albert Barnes in his comment on both Revelation 5:8 and 8:3 draws some hairsplitting distinctions that would make the most skillful lawyer envious:
Jamieson, Fausset, and Brown’s comment on Revelation 5:8 exhibits even more of a sort of “fortress mentality”:

Abraham / rich man…Their Body’s were DEAD.
Living souls depart out of Dead body’s.
Two departed living souls…can communicate.

So the rich man is not seeking Abraham's intercession? Obviously, being dead does not disqualify a person from interceding. And neither does being alive on earth.

Was the dead rich man asking Abraham a question…yes…so?
Was the dead rich man praising Abraham? No…
Worshiping Abraham? No.
Thanking Abraham? No.

Asking for help for his errant brothers on earth, yes, that you deny.

You think every time you ask someone a question you are “Spiritually PRAYING” to them?

Another headless chicken comment. I ask you questions and you instantly become deaf.

Taken's (false) dichotomy between Christ’s mediation and human or angelic mediation need not be drawn at all; it arises only because of the Protestant’s needless alarmism at God’s making use of creatures to fulfill his purposes.

 

[Jude Thaddeus]

1. Saints in Heaven Are Aware of Earthly Events

Hebrews 12:1 (“we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses”).

Revelation 6:9-10: “I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the witness they had borne; they cried out with a loud voice, ‘O Sovereign Lord, holy and true, how long before thou wilt judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell upon the earth?’”

2. Extraordinary Characteristics of Departed Saints

• Departed saints “see his face” (Rev 22:4)
• and see God “face to face” (1 Cor 13:12),
• with God as their “light” (Rev 22:5).
• They are “like” Jesus (1 Jn 3:2)
• and are fully “united to the Lord” and “one spirit with him” (1 Cor 6:17).
• They are “filled with all the fulness of God” (Eph 3:19) and “the fulness of Christ” (Eph 4:13).
• They are fully “partakers of the divine nature” (2 Pet 1:4) and totally free of sin (Rev 19:8; 21:8, 27; 22:14-15).
• They are “equal to” angels (Lk 20:36) or “like angels” (Mt 22:30; Mk 12:25).
• Jesus said, “I tell you, there is joy before the angels of God over one sinner who repents” (Lk 15:10).

If angels know that, and we will be “equal” to them, then dead saints in heaven can certainly hear a petition, since by analogy to the angels they’ll be able to discern interior thoughts.

• Christians “are being changed into his likeness from one degree of glory to another” (2 Cor 3:18).
• This is perfected in heaven. Departed saints “understand fully” (1 Cor 13:12)
• and possess perfect knowledge (1 Cor 13:9-10).
• Paul implies that believers even while on the earth can achieve “the knowledge of his will in all spiritual wisdom and understanding” (Col 1:9)
• and can obtain “all the riches of assured understanding and the knowledge of God’s mystery, of Christ” (Col 1:10).
• How much more the perfected saints in heaven?
• St. Paul was “caught up into Paradise” and “heard things that cannot be told, which man may not utter” (2 Cor 12:3-4).
• He states that now we only “see in a mirror dimly” and ” know in part” (1 Cor 13:12),
• and that “eye has not seen” (1 Cor 2:9) what God has prepared for us.

Therefore, being able to hear our prayers and intercede for us would clearly be just two of many extraordinary — and much more extraordinary — characteristics of departed saints and of angels.

3. Departed Saints in Heaven Praying for Those on Earth, or Presenting Their Prayers to God

Revelation 5:8 “the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, . . . with golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints”.

Jeremiah 15:1: “Then the LORD said to me, ‘Though Moses and Samuel stood before me, yet my heart would not turn toward this people . . .’ ” This presupposes that Moses and Samuel (both known for intercession) have stood before God interceding for people on earth.

2 Maccabees 15:12-16 also describes Onias, a high priest (1 Macc 12:7-8, 19-20), and Jeremiah praying for the Jews and Jerusalem.

4. Angels in Heaven Praying for Those on Earth, or Presenting Their Prayers to God

Revelation 8:2-3 “another angel came and stood at the altar . . . and he was given much incense to mingle with the prayers of all the saints upon the golden altar before the throne; and the smoke of the incense rose with the prayers of the saints from the hand of the angel before God.”
Tobit 12:15 I am Raphael, one of the seven holy angels who present the prayers of the saints and enter into the presence of the glory of the Holy One. (cf. “seven spirits of God”: Rev 1:4; 3:1; 4:5; 5:6, who help spread God’s grace [Rev 1:4]).

5. Permissible Communication with Departed Saints

• John spoke to one of the “elders” in heaven (Rev 7:14).
• Jesus Himself invoked a dead person twice: Jairus’ daughter (Mk 5:41: “Little girl, I say to you, arise”; cf. Lk 8:54: “Child, arise”)
• and Lazarus (Jn 11:43: “Lazarus, come out”).
• Jesus talked to the dead Moses and Elijah on the Mount of Transfiguration (Mt 17:1-4; cf. Mk 9:2-5; Lk 9:29-33)
• St. Peter invoked a dead person: “turning to the body he said, ‘Tabitha, rise.’ And she opened her eyes,” (Acts 9:40).
• 2 Maccabees 15:12-16 describes Onias and Jeremiah conversing with Judas Maccabeus.

All @Taken can do is repeat, repeat, repeat the same needless alarmism at God’s making use of creatures to fulfill his purposes,

 

[BreadOfLife]

….yes, by commanding them all to be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of their sins.

Get that, son?

Uh-hih.
And when in doubt - like you obviously ARE - just do what the Master Himself said to do . . .

Matt. 38:19
Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in[a] the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit

 

[BreadOfLife]

The stubborn will Hear but not Understand…

You are blinded by your stubbornness..

That must be short for –

“I don’t have an intelligent response to your rock-solid Scriptural evidence about intercession of the Body of Christ” . . .

 

[Athanasius377]

I accept DEVELOPMENT OF DOCTRINE. Do you?? No, you arrogantly reject it, allowing you to invent nonsense.

You play chronology games like an atheist or a fundamentalist. Worse, you toss around "mortal sin" as if you understand what it means, then pretend you have an argument.

Scripture speaks of two types of sin: “sin which is mortal” and “sin which is not mortal” (1 John 5:16-17). The latter of these, the Church calls venial (or pardonable) sin. So what it is that makes a sin mortal (or deadly)?

Three conditions must be met:
(1) it must be a “sin whose object is grave matter,”
(2) it must be committed with “full knowledge,” and
(3) it must be done with “deliberate consent.”

To reject Magisterial teaching on the Assumption, one must have full knowledge of the Immaculate Conception and a host of other dogmatic declarations. If one lacks full knowledge, it is not a mortal sin.

Of course I reject to idea of development of doctrine. I hold to the Faith once delivered to the Saints, Jude 3. I’m not the one demanding one hold to nonsense doctrines.

Either Rome is the church standing in the mist of time or she is something else. You can’t have it both ways. And that is why I reject Rome’s claims. Rome cannot demonstrate consistency across time so she resorts to the “Magic Bag” of development of doctrine and/ or tradition. Or as I said before it’s the “flextape” of theology. No papaliast can tell me what that tradition consists of just that Rome believes it now. And so you are forced to read later developments back into the historical record because you are told that’s what you must find. Spoiler alert, the ECF say all sorts of things. Yet the only thing you will find, in my reading, there is only a consensus regarding baptismal regeneration and communion in both kinds. Which the historical record shows that proponents of the same were burned at the stake for advocating.

So let’s get down to brass tacks. Would any of the bishops at Nicea I, have any idea of what you’re talking about? Lol, Or any of the apostles? In there lies your problem. And it’s not with me, rather it’s with history. And before pull out the Jurgens volumes be aware I have entire shelves of ECF writings.

P.s. I agree that infants should be baptized.

 

[Truther]

Uh-hih.
And when in doubt - like you obviously ARE - just do what the Master Himself said to do . . .

Matt. 38:19
Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in[a] the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit

Two questions per the verse that you posted.
Number 1 question.
What is the name of the son per the verse?

Number 2, is it addressing a specific name because it is singular or three names because it is plural?

In other words is “in the name of” singular or plural?

Bonus question, if it is singular, what is that specific name of the father of the son of the Holy Ghost?
And if it is plural, what are the three names of the father of the son of the Holy Ghost?